We can see how smug the human Nobles are after all they trodden down the CEs,the commoners and caged the mages while dutifully repeating the Chant and receiving blessings from their priestess..
The Dalish is feared because they will fight back when shoved. I'm surprise the humans didn't have a exalted march against the Dalish but,maybe they recall how deadly the Night Owls was during the rebellion against Orlais.
The dwarves aren't racist in the same way. They have a very caste oriented society, but they don't think humans or elves are their inferiors. The CEs and humans are culturally racist to a degree -though with humans that varies by culture.Why would looking down on others on the basis of being "better historians" any different than looking down on others for any other reason? Because all other factions do it. Dwarves, City Elves, Humans, Qunari, all of them are part of racist or xenophobic or classist cultures that hate certain others as much as Dalish Elves do.
Why would looking down on others on the basis of being "better historians" any different than looking down on others for any other reason?
Aside from that they aren't better historians?
There is such a thing as justifiable arrogance- which can be annoying, but at least succeeds in it's own terms. A good historian may be 'know more than thou', but at least they could be a reliable source for history. The Dalish aren't- and yet use their narrative as their raison d'etre and for a host of other condemnable traits and flaws.
Everyone has imperfect history. Not everyone has their history so wrong in such important ways- or relies on that poor history to justify so many current-day sins.
Because all other factions do it. Dwarves, City Elves, Humans, Qunari, all of them are part of racist or xenophobic or classist cultures that hate certain others as much as Dalish Elves do.
And they all face criticism for racist and xenophobic and clasist cultural elements.
These are flaws, and worth condemning, even as every culture is distinct in its nature and degree. Just because everyone (personally and culturally) is flawed doesn't mean that everyone is flawed in the same way, and thus univerally equivalent and not worth mentioning.
This thread is about the Dalish and why people dislike them. The elements people dislike about them are the topic. Create a 'Deconstructing Qunari Hate' thread an you'll see fewer criticisms of the Dalish and more of the Qunari. Create a 'Deconstructing Chantry Hate', and you'll see the criticisms for the Chantry (including, yes, '
We can see how smug the human Nobles are after all they trodden down the CEs,the commoners and caged the mages while dutifully repeating the Chant and receiving blessings from their priestess..
The Dalish is feared because they will fight back when shoved. I'm surprise the humans didn't have a exalted march against the Dalish but,maybe they recall how deadly the Night Owls was during the rebellion against Orlais.
We can see how smug the human Nobles are after all they trodden down the CEs,the commoners and caged the mages while dutifully repeating the Chant and receiving blessings from their priestess..
And that's a viewpoint that people have and criticize all of the above, yes.
The Dalish is feared because they will fight back when shoved. I'm surprise the humans didn't have a exalted march against the Dalish but,maybe they recall how deadly the Night Owls was during the rebellion against Orlais.
That's one way to look at it, sure.
The other is that there's no need for such an effort because the Dalish spend all their lives running away from humans while trying to make it look like it's their choice. Human peasants on the frontier may fear being bushwhacked, but start mobilizing the Templars to look for that local keeper and what do you know, an entire clan picks up and beats feet.
The Night Elves weren't even Dalish. It has no bearing on them specifically. But it's said in general that elves see better at night. That's why Loghain used them. Orlais had no problem coming down on the Dalish before if that's all they have to do. At least when they were clustered in one region.
Which brings me to another thing... we talk about Dalish so much now as if they are synonymous with elves.. when they were very rare before in the setting. Now every discussion is about the Dalish. And now not only one, but potentially two Dalish ruled everyone's lives as an Inquisitor. It's stupid.
Anyways, I really don't give a **** anymore. They've worn out their welcome for me. Even though my main Warden is Dalish. Bring back the city elves. 
And let me play a criminal or lower class person who isn't a dwarf.
The discussion is usually about the Dalish because no one really has an issue with the CEs. You might see a difference of opinion as to what extent their plight is due to racism on the part of the local human populations vs. just purely a feature of their being a downtrodden class but that's really more of an academic debate.
The Dalish engender a lot of division I think because some people really identify with them.
I don't see how people identify with them much. The only things that truly bare relevance to our lives are social and personal issues. That's why I often hate any choice or moral quandary in these games that doesn't play on that. It's why whether Cole is a spirit or human isn't that thought provoking either. It's nonsense that only holds sway within the context of the setting. The Dalish pull on you in the same way. It can be fun, but it's pure fantasy. Poverty and Class mean something more. Or a myriad of issues they've done before.. Like the conflict with free spirits like Isabela vs Qunari. Or templars and mages. These play on real things that we all see in daily life.
Well, except that a lot of what they remember is lies.
To be fair, they don't know that they are lies. After the Temple of Mythal and Trespasser, sure that knowledge can come out, but we haven't had an opportunity to see how that has impacted the actual elves, particularly the Dalish, in the world.
I don't see how people identify with them much. The only things that truly bare relevance to our lives are social and personal issues. That's why I often hate any choice or moral quandary in these games that doesn't play on that. It's why whether Cole is a spirit or human isn't that thought provoking either. It's nonsense that only holds sway within the context of the setting. The Dalish pull on you in the same way. It can be fun, but it's pure fantasy. Poverty and Class mean something more. Or a myriad of issues they've done before.. Like the conflict with free spirits like Isabela vs Qunari. Or templars and mages. These play on real things that we all see in daily life.
I disagree on the Cole choice. I've always thought of it as being about growth versus the supposed ideal. It's also a heavily role-play choice for the Inquisitor, making it more about their beliefs than Cole. Each person -- Solas, Varric, and the Inquisitor -- has an opinion on what the correct path for Cole should be, and the Inquisitor is ultimately the one to make the decision. Whether you agree with the Solas reasoning or the Varric reasoning, you are making the decision for Cole, and how you handle it says more about you than anything else. Many of the decisions in all three of these games are this way. They aren't world defining decisions, they are character defining decisions.
Straykat, for some reason I fully believe the Night Owls was indeed Dalish because the Dalish is well trained in archery unlike their CE brothers that can not(well supposedly) own weapons. The book doesn't state one way or the other. Of course knowing Loghain's commoner background they could have been rogue Elves from the City and Dalish clans just as well.
Straykat, for some reason I fully believe the Night Owls was indeed Dalish because the Dalish is well trained in archery unlike their CE brothers that can not(well supposedly) own weapons. The book doesn't state one way or the other. Of course knowing Loghain's commoner background they could have been rogue Elves from the City and Dalish clans just as well.
Nah. What would the Dalish care about Ferelden independence? The City Elves actually had something to gain from kicking chevaliers out. That City Elves aren't supposed to be trained in combat hardly matters in a Ferelden where a civil war has been going on for decades.
Nah. What would the Dalish care about Ferelden independence? The City Elves actually had something to gain from kicking chevaliers out. That City Elves aren't supposed to be trained in combat hardly matters in a Ferelden where a civil war has been going on for decades.
One thing the CE would gain is to get out from under Orlesian rule..Usurper King Meghren was a tyrant feared by everybody.
Maybe the Dalish cared about getting rid of the Chevaliers lest they be next on King Meghren's list. Meghren was trying to get a place in the Emperor's court.
One thing the CE would gain is to get out from under Orlesian rule..Usurper King Meghren was a tyrant feared by everybody.
Maybe the Dalish cared about getting rid of the Chevaliers lest they be next on King Meghren's list. Meghren was trying to get a place in the Emperor's court.
Seeing as how the Chevaliers apparently (and basically) ritually murder CEs as part of their rite of passage, it's pretty apparent that a group of CEs alal the CE Warden might have very good reason to want them out of the country. It's quite heavily intimated a number of Chevaliers approach commoners generally the way Vaughn approached the CEs.
This is why I hate Elves...
I don't see how people identify with them much. The only things that truly bare relevance to our lives are social and personal issues. That's why I often hate any choice or moral quandary in these games that doesn't play on that. It's why whether Cole is a spirit or human isn't that thought provoking either. It's nonsense that only holds sway within the context of the setting. The Dalish pull on you in the same way. It can be fun, but it's pure fantasy. Poverty and Class mean something more. Or a myriad of issues they've done before.. Like the conflict with free spirits like Isabela vs Qunari. Or templars and mages. These play on real things that we all see in daily life.
The choice with Cole is about a kind of metaphysical view. Solas says that Cole is a special kind of being - a rare, if not absolutely unique kind - that has to be preserved in its original state no matter what because, if it isn't, then the world loses something fundamental. Varric is of the view that - regardless of what Cole was - Cole is becoming something new, 'growing'. At an abstract level this is just another reflection of the debate between Solas and Varric as to whether one should recapture the past or move on.
Whether to let go of something or reach out to preserve an ideal - that's something pretty relateable, IMO.
As to the Dalish, depending on one's IRL culture, there's room for resonance and connection. Lots of people view the Dalish's isolation/treatment/views as a parable/analogy to the group to which they belong. Part of why I dislike the Dalish is that they reflect a lot of what I find to be IRL objectionable attitudes. They share a bit with IRL white supremacists, for example.
The choice with Cole is about a kind of metaphysical view. Solas says that Cole is a special kind of being - a rare, if not absolutely unique kind - that has to be preserved in its original state no matter what because, if it isn't, then the world loses something fundamental.
You know, I just don't get Solas at all. His thinks in one way about a spirit, but in the complete opposite way with mortal beings. He is willing to destroy everything, the bad and the good, about the mortal world just to bring about his ideal. Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but it seems completely contrary to me.
The Dalish is feared because they will fight back when shoved. I'm surprise the humans didn't have a exalted march against the Dalish but,maybe they recall how deadly the Night Owls was during the rebellion against Orlais.
The Dalish kill without reason when they feel entitled to it. That's why they are feared.
Origins gives you a very good example of this. When your Warden returns to the Dalish Camp after finishing the quest of the werewolves, a Dalish hunter confronts you about the fate of the werewolves. She claims they killed someone she cared about. After your Warden tells her they were freed of the curse and left the forest peacefully, she demands vengeance and attacks you.
How is that fighting back? Is murdering the Warden justified after he/she ended the curse and saved the Dalish hunters who wre bitten?
The Dalish engender a lot of division I think because some people really identify with them.
That'd be their failing, much as I admire Zeon and their decades long struggle to achieve freedom from Earth that doesn't mean I want to drop a colony on Australia.
We had a good example of why a nomadic tribe doesn't have to use violence and hate to preserve itself in Jaws of Hakkon.
There are Avvars who'll attack the Inquisitor - the Jaws of Hakkon - and Avvars who'll welcome you and talk to you, as they would with any other people (Svarah's tribe). Both tribes belong to one people, the Avvar, but they have a very different policy regarding outsiders.
The problem with the Dalish is that they treat all humans the same, hostilizing them even when they don't mean any harm and brainwash their youth to hate them on principle. The Dalish Origin shows how two Dalish hunters deal with a group of humans who were wondering the forest. Tabris tries to convince you to kill them. The humans are not even given the option to be bound and gagged and dropped somewhere near a human city.
Why can't the Dalish learn to coexist? Why must they kill every human who finds out where their clan is? Why not trade products and services, like some of the Avvar, and build a healthy relationship with other peoples? They can't blame humans for their ineptitude. They chose to feed their own fanaticism. Now they deal with the consequences without implying the world is to blame for their flaws.
They are victims of their own xenophobic and racist philosophy. So long as the Dalish refuse to interact normally with other ethnic groups and feel justified to hate and kill whoever crosses their path, they continuously doom themselves...while blaming the rest of the world for their fate.
Tabris tries to convince you to kill them.
Tamlen is the name of the Dalish elf who accompanies you in the early potion of the Dalish Origin and Tabris is the surname of the protagonist from the City Elf origin.
The Dalish don't treat all humans the same. Different clans treat different humans differently. That's been made clear repeatedly.
The Dalish don't treat all humans the same. Different clans treat different humans differently. That's been made clear repeatedly.
Except that they all agree humans are dangerous, violent and hellbent on doing harm to them. And use that deep-seated hate to kill them when they feel justified to do it.
That's the heart of the problem.
Why can't the Dalish learn to coexist? Why must they kill every human who finds out where their clan is?
They don't? The Sabrae clan to which Tamlen belongs trades with human settlements as, I believe, is mentioned in the Dalish Origin through dialogue with some of the Dalish elves and the Lavellan clan trades with human settlements. I believe that although Hawen's clan to which Loranil belongs may distrust the Inquisitor, they are still willing to trade with them.
The Dalish kill without reason when they feel entitled to it. That's why they are feared.
Origins gives you a very good example of this. When your Warden returns to the Dalish Camp after finishing the quest of the werewolves, a Dalish hunter confronts you about the fate of the werewolves. She claims they killed someone she cared about. After your Warden tells her they were freed of the curse and left the forest peacefully, she demands vengeance and attacks you.
How is that fighting back? Is murdering the Warden justified after he/she ended the curse and saved the Dalish hunters who wre bitten?
She lost her husband and was mad.. I can relate to that when my wife of 24 years was killed by a drunk driver..
However,the warden talks her out of taking revenge by talking to her about hate and what could happen.. In my 13 play throughs she has never attacked my party and had return to camp peacefully.
Sounds like you picked a fight instead of talking her down which is far better then spilling blood needlessly.
Except that they all agree humans are dangerous, violent and hellbent on doing harm to them. And use that deep-seated hate to kill them when they feel justified to do it.
Except they don't as the Lavellan clan is stated to not only trade with humans but also respect them.
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