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[Abyss108]

I doubt the Dalish are going to get along with humans, when they can quite clearly see how humans herd city elves away in alianages and treat them as second class citizens, ignore any crimes committed against them, and demand any mages the Dalish would look to as leaders be given up and locked away from their people where they can't cause trouble.

[ModernAcademic]

 She lost her husband and was mad.. I can relate to that when my wife of 24 years was killed by a drunk driver..

 

However,the warden talks her out of taking revenge by talking to her about hate and what could happen.. In my 13 play throughs she has never attacked my party and had return to camp peacefully.

 

Sounds like you picked a fight instead of talking her down which is far better then spilling blood needlessly.

 

She only gives up attacking the Warden by choosing the Persuade option.

 

If you calmly explain to her the curse was broken and that the humans left the forest peacefully, she attacks.

 

She's willing to kill in the name of revenge, even knowing your Warden saved the hunters. 

[ModernAcademic]

Except they don't as the Lavellan clan is stated to not only trade with humans but also respect them.
 

 

Of course. Because having an elf who hates humans as the Inquisitor wouldn't work. To have a Dalish leading a human-centric organisation would be a contradiction. So Bioware had to come up with a justifiable reason to make it seem plausible.

 

According to logic, a Lavellan would never date Cullen, for example, simply because he's human. And on top of that, one that's ignorant about all things Dalish. And yet, the majority of female players choose to romance Cullen...with a Lavellan Inquisitor. It's more likely an elf would pursue Solas. But after hearing how he insults her clan repeatedly, she would likely quit him, since the Dalish are irrationally stubborn and proud. Instead, most players make their Lavellan carry on with the romance. Some even accept to have their vallaslin removed for the sake of love, which, again,makes no sense with the background of a Dalish.

 

As a player, I consider this neutrality toward humans of clan Lavellan to be created for plot reasons. Lore shows the Dalish don't wish to approach humans or have anything to do with them. When our Warden visits them in the Brecilian Forest, they keep arrows trained on him/her. Same thing when Hawke visits Merrill's clan. They don't want to interact. Some clans have even turned into bandits, preying on travelling merchants. 

 

I guess violence is justified when you believe someone else's life is worth less than yours because your elders taught you to think like this ever since childhood.

[nightscrawl]

She only gives up attacking the Warden by choosing the Persuade option.

 

If you calmly explain to her the curse was broken and that the humans left the forest peacefully, she attacks.

 

She's willing to kill in the name of revenge, even knowing your Warden saved the hunters. 

 

Bit of a digression to say that one thing I occasionally dislike about the persuade option is that it foregoes logic and relies on manipulating people's emotions. I don't recall what the option says in that particular scene, but I do know that the ONLY way to get Alistair to do the DR, regardless of your relationship with him, is to use the persuade option to say, "Don't you trust me?" That really bothers me, when I would much prefer to use logic and reasoning to achieve my goal, rather than manipulate someone.

[In Exile]

You know, I just don't get Solas at all. His thinks in one way about a spirit, but in the complete opposite way with mortal beings. He is willing to destroy everything, the bad and the good, about the mortal world just to bring about his ideal. Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but it seems completely contrary to me.

Solas doesn't think new Cole is worth preserving. He sees new Cole as basically a travesty - a loss of a rare and majestic being. That reflects his view on the modern world, which he also sees as essentially a loss. He wants to stop Cole from changing and return him to what he was, in the same way he wants to return the entire world to what it was.

[In Exile]

The Dalish don't treat all humans the same. Different clans treat different humans differently. That's been made clear repeatedly.

The problem is that we don't really see it. DAI is the closest toward showing us a warm and welcoming clan, albeit they do take some time to warm up to you. But otherwise the portrayal is generally hostile.

[Abyss108]

Of course. Because having an elf who hates humans as the Inquisitor wouldn't work. To have a Dalish leading a human-centric organisation would be a contradiction. So Bioware had to come up with a justifiable reason to make it seem plausible.

 

According to logic, a Lavellan would never date Cullen, for example, simply because he's human. And on top of that, one that's ignorant about all things Dalish. And yet, the majority of female players choose to romance Cullen...with a Lavellan Inquisitor. It's more likely an elf would pursue Solas. But after hearing how he insults her clan repeatedly, she would likely quit him, since the Dalish are irrationally stubborn and proud. Instead, most players make their Lavellan carry on with the romance. Some even accept to have their vallaslin removed for the sake of love, which, again,makes no sense with the background of a Dalish.

 

As a player, I consider this neutrality toward humans of clan Lavellan to be created for plot reasons. Lore shows the Dalish don't wish to approach humans or have anything to do with them. When our Warden visits them in the Brecilian Forest, they keep arrows trained on him/her. Same thing when Hawke visits Merrill's clan. They don't want to interact. Some clans have even turned into bandits, preying on travelling merchants. 

 

I guess violence is justified when you believe someone else's life is worth less than yours because your elders taught you to think like this ever since childhood.

 

You can't just ignore any evidence that doesn't fit your own idea of what the Dalish should be because it's "plot". All those examples of Dalish attacking humans, etc, are also there because of "plot".

 

It's been repeatedly stated that Dalish culture is fragmented, and all clans are different. Lavellan isn't the first time you can play as a Dalish who doesn't hate humans, you could do that all the way back in Origins, aka potentially the very first Dalish elf in the game. Merril in DA2 doesn't hate you for being human, she can be your friend or romance option. So every single Dragon Age game can have either a Dalish protagonist or companion that doesn't fit your definition.

 

I'm also going to point out, that any Lavellans who remove their vallaslin probably aren't doing it for "love", but because they are slave markings.

[In Exile]

Merill also uses racial slurs in the rivalry path, keep in mind, so not everyone will see the same side of her. But part of the issue as I say above is that apart from DAI and DAO when you play as a Dalish elf you don't see any real positive side to then without having to essentially demonstrate your worth.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

 

Except that they all agree humans are dangerous, violent and hellbent on doing harm to them. And use that deep-seated hate to kill them when they feel justified to do it.

 

That's the heart of the problem.

 

If that was true they wouldn't ever trade with humans or ever tolerate humans being around them. But they do. And again, that's hardly any different from how humans treat the Dalish. In fact, humans believe that Dalish are  so dangerous and violent that they tend to try to drive them off whenever they stay in one location for too long.

 

The problem is that we don't really see it. DAI is the closest toward showing us a warm and welcoming clan, albeit they do take some time to warm up to you. But otherwise the portrayal is generally hostile.

 

Velanna's former clan was welcoming to the PC. And so were most of the members of Zathrian's clan apart from the perimeter guard and Sarel. Both of whom apologize for their rudeness afterward. I'm pretty sure If you count the Dalish NPCs who were welcoming to the Warden vs the ones who were unfriendly, the former would outnumber the latter. And they aren't the only examples. Ariane and her clan were so welcoming to Morrigan that she was able to take advantage of them.

 

Also we never encounter a Circle of Magi that didn't have the Right of Annulment enacted on it. That doesn't mean we are supposed to conclude it always happens.

[nightscrawl]

I'm also going to point out, that any Lavellans who remove their vallaslin probably aren't doing it for "love", but because they are slave markings.

Well... no. Just as ModernAcademic shouldn't generalize a player's choice down to one reason, neither should you. That is what role-play is all about, and every player will have their own reason for doing whatever it is.

 

I'm sure there are some Solas-mancers out there that did do it just because of him. I don't play elves and have not done the Solas romance, but it seems to me that a valid thought process could certainly be that you (the Lavellan Inquisitor) don't consider them slave markings, even if that is what they originally were. That is not how your clan (or any modern Dalish) uses them, and that is not how you thought of them when you originally had them applied. So, you might not put any significant weight on them in that sense. However, because you like, respect, admire, and are falling in love with Solas, you just might allow his opinion to override your own and allow him to remove them. That is as valid a role-play reason as any.

 

(Yes, I do realize you said "probably".)

[In Exile]

If that was true they wouldn't ever trade with humans or ever tolerate humans being around them. But they do. And again, that's hardly any different from how humans treat the Dalish. In fact, humans believe that Dalish are so dangerous and violent that they tend to try to drive them off whenever they stay in one location for too long.


Velanna's former clan was welcoming to the PC. And so were most of the members of Zathrian's clan apart from the perimeter guard and Sarel. Both of whom apologize for their rudeness afterward. I'm pretty sure If you count the Dalish NPCs who were welcoming to the Warden vs the ones who were unfriendly, the former would outnumber the latter. And they aren't the only examples. Ariane and her clan were so welcoming to Morrigan that she was able to take advantage of them.

Also we never encounter a Circle of Magi that didn't have the Right of Annulment enacted on it. That doesn't mean we are supposed to conclude it always happens.

We don't meet Velanna's former clan outside of a brief confrontation where they point out that they abandoned her because she was a militant racist. I don't recall their saying much to the HOF directly. My only recollection is of the cut scene conversation between Velanna and a member of her clan.

As for Zathrian's tribe, you can't just hand-wave away their open hostility. They apologise for their rudeness if you help, as I recall, and then only if you were polite first. Sarel doesn't if you don't line up with his views on the fall of the Dales as I recall.

That doesn't actually challenge my point, though which was that the Dalish aren't friendly unless you prove yourself worth their time. And it's a bit inaccurate to say the initial "leave or we'll hurt you" threat was just being rude.

[Tidus]

She only gives up attacking the Warden by choosing the Persuade option.

 

If you calmly explain to her the curse was broken and that the humans left the forest peacefully, she attacks.

 

She's willing to kill in the name of revenge, even knowing your Warden saved the hunters. 

Yeah,But,in my games she is yet to attack me even after I tell her they left the forrest. She says something like good they're humans and easy to kill. They have Dalish blood on their hands.

 

I use persuade instead of killing needlessly and she sees the error of her ways and returns peacefully to camp.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

We don't meet Velanna's former clan outside of a brief confrontation where they point out that they abandoned her because she was a militant racist. I don't recall their saying much to the HOF directly. My only recollection is of the cut scene conversation between Velanna and a member of her clan.

As for Zathrian's tribe, you can't just hand-wave away their open hostility. They apologise for their rudeness if you help, as I recall, and then only if you were polite first. Sarel doesn't if you don't line up with his views on the fall of the Dales as I recall.

That doesn't actually challenge my point, though which was that the Dalish aren't friendly unless you prove yourself worth their time. And it's a bit inaccurate to say the initial "leave or we'll hurt you" threat was just being rude.

 

So? They still count. The NPC does in fact speak directly to the Warden-Commander. And he greets them in peace even before he realizes who they are. He also describes Velanna's said militant racism as "poison." Serrani isn't hostile to the Warden's party either.

 

A handful of Zathrian's clan are hostile. Most are not. I'm pretty sure one of the elves around the campfire always chastises Sarel when he becomes angry, which is what prompts him to apologize. And he always becomes angry at every type of Warden.

 

The people who say "leave or we'll hurt you" are guards. That's the whole job of any type of guard of any race. And she always apologizes afterward. 

[Abyss108]

Well... no. Just as ModernAcademic shouldn't generalize a player's choice down to one reason, neither should you. That is what role-play is all about, and every player will have their own reason for doing whatever it is.

 

I'm sure there are some Solas-mancers out there that did do it just because of him. I don't play elves and have not done the Solas romance, but it seems to me that a valid thought process could certainly be that you (the Lavellan Inquisitor) don't consider them slave markings, even if that is what they originally were. That is not how your clan (or any modern Dalish) uses them, and that is not how you thought of them when you originally had them applied. So, you might not put any significant weight on them in that sense. However, because you like, respect, admire, and are falling in love with Solas, you just might allow his opinion to override your own and allow him to remove them. That is as valid a role-play reason as any.

 

(Yes, I do realize you said "probably".)

 

I'm sure there are some that did it because "love" (I said probably for a reason), but it certainly wouldn't be my default assumption. There are dialogue options to discuss how upset you are that your history was a lie, or there are dialogue options to discuss how you don't consider them slave marking anymore. There are not dialogue options to say you want to change your face because the pretty boy wants you too. 

 

You can obviously imagine that's what your character is thinking in that scene, but it's not the common option. Not that there's anything wrong with playing a character who thinks that, but I find it to be a gross oversimplification that someone would see that scene and their first thought was that any character who physically altered there face simply did it to make the boy like them more. 

[Nimlowyn]

Of course. Because having an elf who hates humans as the Inquisitor wouldn't work. To have a Dalish leading a human-centric organisation would be a contradiction. So Bioware had to come up with a justifiable reason to make it seem plausible.

 

According to logic, a Lavellan would never date Cullen, for example, simply because he's human. And on top of that, one that's ignorant about all things Dalish. And yet, the majority of female players choose to romance Cullen...with a Lavellan Inquisitor. It's more likely an elf would pursue Solas. But after hearing how he insults her clan repeatedly, she would likely quit him, since the Dalish are irrationally stubborn and proud. Instead, most players make their Lavellan carry on with the romance. Some even accept to have their vallaslin removed for the sake of love, which, again,makes no sense with the background of a Dalish.

 

As a player, I consider this neutrality toward humans of clan Lavellan to be created for plot reasons. Lore shows the Dalish don't wish to approach humans or have anything to do with them. When our Warden visits them in the Brecilian Forest, they keep arrows trained on him/her. Same thing when Hawke visits Merrill's clan. They don't want to interact. Some clans have even turned into bandits, preying on travelling merchants. 

 

I guess violence is justified when you believe someone else's life is worth less than yours because your elders taught you to think like this ever since childhood.

 

I'm a native Californian, born and raised. This means I live at the beach, surf, have bleach blonde hair, a killer tan, say like and dude a lot, am totally a yogini, go to Disneyland every day, never say what I mean and am an unreliable flake. 

 

Of course, most of the above actually doesn't describe me at all.

 

I think you are being unfair to the Dalish by holding them so strongly to stereotypes. Stereotypes may have some basis in truth, but they are incomplete. As Solas says, the Dalish are not a unified people, they are almost individual cultures unto themselves. Some are no better than bandits. Others live peacefully alongside humans. Some are bitter, like Paivel in the Sabrae Clan in Origins, or peaceful and conciliatory like Olafin of Hawen's clan. The elven man who fell in love with the human woman before the Battle of Red Crossing (sorry I forgot his name) essentially relinquishes being Dalish altogether for her love. Being Dalish mattered less to him than the woman he loved. As there are various clans there are various individuals. 

 

As Inquisitor you can play an elf who strongly identifies as Dalish to one who essentially resents it. You can say that Clan Lavellan avoided human settlements, you can say they traded freely. You can say it was wonderful being Dalish, you could say it sucked. The Dalish are written as a disparate peoples with individual variance. 

 

It's fine not to like the Dalish. It's just incorrect to insist they all behave in one way. 

[In Exile]

So? They still count. The NPC does in fact speak directly to the Warden-Commander. And he greets them in peace even before he realizes who they are. He also describes Velanna's said militant racism as "poison." Serrani isn't hostile to the Warden's party either.

A handful of Zathrian's clan are hostile. Most are not. I'm pretty sure one of the elves around the campfire always chastises Sarel when he becomes angry, which is what prompts him to apologize. And he always becomes angry at every type of Warden.

The people who say "leave or we'll hurt you" are guards. That's the whole job of any type of guard of any race. And she always apologizes afterward.

There's no "so" to Velanna. I genuinely didn't recall the interaction. I know the Internet is filled with hostile chats but I didn't mean much by it.

As to Zathrian's camp, it's not a "handful". We don't speak to everyone. The only set that matters is the group of people we meet. And certainly guards aren't openly hostile - just think of the guard captain in Denerim who is absurdly friendly despite his job being to personally arrest you. The guard doesn't apologise until you're outed as a Grey Warden and then have your generally magical immunity to prejudice card. If you don't mention you're a GW she's hostile throughout the conversation, as is Zathrian until he realizes you're supposed to be one. You would otherwise even have had access to the clan. The point where they're nice is already after you've agreed to try and save them.

[AnimalBoy]

That's why i sleep with Gheyna in Origins. Because i can and to screw with the elves.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

My point about the "so" was just that it doesn't really matter when or for how long we encounter Velanna's clan. They are still an example of friendly Dalish Elves. 

 

We speak to more people who are friendly than to people who are not. If we have to conclude anything about the general attitude of the Clan based on our interactions with the ones that we do talk to, then it should be that they are more welcoming than not.

 

I actually don't remember the interaction with the Denerim guard you are referring to offhand, but I assume he doesn't stop being a guard. All guards are supposed to hurt people who try to go places they aren't supposed to. Whether their demeanor are abrasive or comically sanguine is largely irrelevant. 

 

Since revealing you are a Grey Warden and agreeing to help them is always part of the game, it's not like we experience all the friendly dalish being hostile to you beforehand, so it would be premature to conclude they would all hate you if you weren't a Grey Warden.

 

I remember Zathrian being pretty calm and reserved throughout your entire first meeting with him no matter what you say. Either way though, the reason that he and guards are leery of outsiders is because their experience with them has mostly been negative. If you are polite to Zathrian as a human he's surprised and acts like he's rarely if ever seen that before.

[nightscrawl]

I'm sure there are some that did it because "love" (I said probably for a reason), but it certainly wouldn't be my default assumption. There are dialogue options to discuss how upset you are that your history was a lie, or there are dialogue options to discuss how you don't consider them slave marking anymore. There are not dialogue options to say you want to change your face because the pretty boy wants you too. 
 
You can obviously imagine that's what your character is thinking in that scene, but it's not the common option. Not that there's anything wrong with playing a character who thinks that, but I find it to be a gross oversimplification that someone would see that scene and their first thought was that any character who physically altered there face simply did it to make the boy like them more.

 
Well I did try to explain how it could be a little more deep than "because the pretty boy wants you to." But getting further into role-play and whatnot is beyond the scope of this thread, so I will drop the issue.

[Seraphim24]

After reading all the information from various sources and playing a good amount of the content in the Dragon Age games, I can honestly say there is no good reason for people to hate and persecute elves and that the Humans did it out of sheer envy.

 

There literally is no justification for how the other races of Thedas have treated Elves, zilch, it's just a case of pure venom and destruction.

 

It's kind of a black mark on the DA franchise it seems to me, you have all these humans you support like the Arls and so on who on some level are supporting just straight extreme persecution and violence for no good reason.

 

I actually remember my first character was a City Elf and once I made it outside I was like are you serious?

 

Then I made a Human Noble and it became pretty clear that was the canonical thing you are supposed to play and never looked back.

[Seraphim24]

Furthermore, the reason they lost their immortality and place as Hallowed Elves was a consequence of Fen'Harel's betrayal and not so much any particular skill or virtue on the Humans' part.

 

For what it's worth though (since I am not on a mission to make the creator's feel bad or something), I noticed the same issue in Warcraft ultimately the Elves were kind of completely butchered and treated with great hostility for the entire duration of the franchise, only to be re-raised as sort of demon Elves in TBC.

 

Basically, Elven hate complexes are quite common, arguably DA was a nicer one because the Elves aren't completely all wiped out.

[ModernAcademic]

After reading all the information from various sources and playing a good amount of the content in the Dragon Age games, I can honestly say there is no good reason for people to hate and persecute elves and that the Humans did it out of sheer envy.

 

There literally is no justification for how the other races of Thedas have treated Elves, zilch, it's just a case of pure venom and destruction.

 

It's kind of a black mark on the DA franchise it seems to me, you have all these humans you support like the Arls and so on who on some level are supporting just straight extreme persecution and violence for no good reason.

 

I actually remember my first character was a City Elf and once I made it outside I was like are you serious?

 

Then I made a Human Noble and it became pretty clear that was the canonical thing you are supposed to play and never looked back.

 

You do know Tevinter had nothing to do with the fall of Arlathan, right? That elves had elven slaves and bled them to death in blood rituals, for instance?

 

And that there are Dalish clans that reguarly loot and kill travelling humans, right? 

 

Also, that the Dales fell because the Dalish abandoned humans, dwarves and other races to their fate during the Second Blight, right?

[Tidus]

You do know Tevinter had nothing to do with the fall of Arlathan, right? That elves had elven slaves and bled them to death in blood rituals, for instance?

 

And that there are Dalish clans that reguarly loot and kill travelling humans, right? 

 

Also, that the Dales fell because the Dalish abandoned humans, dwarves and other races to their fate during the Second Blight, right?

If we could leave the books and Wiki out of the games we may actually enjoy the games as they was intended instead of become racist toward the Dalish and Elves in general. I like Elves.

 

I found 90% of the Elves woes is due to humans hate for Elves and no one ever mentions the Dwarves dislike for humans either or the fact the Dwarves help the Elves when the humans was chasing them.

 

Humans are far more evil then Elves as the games and the DA books show.

[Shechinah]

If we could leave the books and Wiki out of the games we may actually enjoy the games as they was intended instead of become racist toward the Dalish and Elves in general. I like Elves.

 

These events are brought up in the games themselves, to my knowledge, especially in Dragon Age: Inquisition where the first point is a major revelation courtesy of Abelas in the Temple of Mythal. 

 

The second was introduced in Dragon Age: Origins where, I believe, even a Dalish member confirms that some clans are no better than bandits.

 

The third, I think, may have been introduced in Dragon Age: Origins but I am not sure so I'll say that it was brought up in Dragon Age: Inquisition. I believe it is a simplification, however, of the events and reasoning that led to the Fall of the Dales.
 

[Tidus]

I do recall one Dalish hunter getting upset because a refugee from the City repeated what he heard about the Dalish being bandits. I never heard the line you mention unless I missed a Elf in either Dalish camp.