757 réponses à ce sujet

[Andraste_Reborn]

It's kind of a black mark on the DA franchise it seems to me, you have all these humans you support like the Arls and so on who on some level are supporting just straight extreme persecution and violence for no good reason.

 

Depiction is not endorsement. I don't think we're meant to see the oppression of elves as a good thing at any point in the series. That doesn't mean the elves are always portrayed as blameless and innocent in the conflict- they're just people, who can be as flawed as the humans in the series are individually. But unlike with the mages vs. mundanes issue, there have been no attempts to provide an argument for why humans might reasonably mistreat elves as a group. It's telling that we've never had an anti-elf companion, while we've had several who express mistrust of mages, and Fenris who straight-up hates them, at least at first. (Sera is against elfiness, but not against elves.) Which makes sense, because wariness of people who can set things on fire with their minds makes a lot more sense than hating people just because they've got pointy ears.

[Reznore57]

I can explain why elves in general tends to annoy me , they are often depicted as beautiful , with lots of grace , wise , immortal or super long living , with often great civilization and on the side you have the savages dirty hot headed human .

DAO suffered from this too , when you go to the Dalish clan you get told how the pretty perfect elves were living like peaceful bunnies full of love and then the humans with disease arrived and felt like smashing everything wise and beautiful around because well that's what barbarians do.

 

Of course even in DAO it sounded like a fairy tale , and the lore you could find around didn't go along with the story all that well.

First humans carrying around an anti elven immotality disease was strange , yeah it's fantasy so anything possible , but there wasn't any proof it was a thing.I mostly saw it as a metaphor for the fact human breeding with elves = human babies , so should the elves live among humans they would be threatened as a species in the long run.

Then there's Tevinter vs the ancient elves , the setting hinted ancient elves magic was far beyond Tevinter magic and Tevinter never managed to catch up.

Still we were supposed to believe Tevinter with magic defeated the elven empire which was way way better at magic.

And it's not just deafeated it's total annihilation .

It didn't make any sense to me back then , Tevinter did conquer most of Thedas , but they had huge problem in the south with the Alamarri tribes .Why would a human tribe would cause more problem than the mighty elven empire was a puzzle.

The way the story was told it relied heavily on buying  the humans won because they were crude , (blood magic , being ruthless etc...) and the elves lost because well they were busy running around like headless chicken too traumatised by the horrors of war the human brought.

 

So yeah that was annoying , a very black and white story.I'm not blaming the Dalish for believing it , part of it is true afterall.The humans did came and beat the refugees and survivors from the elven empire into submission.

 

Anyway I do like the Dalish and even the ancient elves now.

The dalish are a walking tragedy , at this point their goal is to be like the ancient elves , rebuilding their empire , they think when they are worthy their gods will be back and immortality and magic will be back for them.

Except this is impossible , they are still slighly more magical than human but still closer to humans than they are to ancient elves , and there's no turning back or cure or whatever.

 

And I like the ancient elves mostly for the decadence , I'm not that fond of Solas because he's into the elven perfection nonsense , if you're not immortal and super magical well life ain't worth living, and people are now all dirty barbarians of course.

Nevermind the fact ancient elves in many ways were more ruthless and savages than current civilization.

[berelinde]

If we could leave the books and Wiki out of the games we may actually enjoy the games as they was intended instead of become racist toward the Dalish and Elves in general. I like Elves.

 

I found 90% of the Elves woes is due to humans hate for Elves and no one ever mentions the Dwarves dislike for humans either or the fact the Dwarves help the Elves when the humans was chasing them.

 

Humans are far more evil then Elves as the games and the DA books show.

So, you want us to ignore the actual lore and subscribe to your alternative reality instead? Uh... no. Like it or not, the books and the wiki are actual canon. What's going on in your head is not.

 

As for the last sentence, we have to believe what we're shown. The books and the game do show some human mistreatment of elves, but if it isn't the blatant evil you want it to be, maybe you should adjust your expectations. The writers are making the world they want to make. If the humans in it aren't the demons you want them to be, maybe you need to find another game.

[In Exile]

The mistreatment of CEs is pretty much a reflection of IRL racism. This isn't fantasy D&D levels of evil - this is the actual kind of mistreatment we saw historically. 

[Master Warder Z_]

After reading all the information from various sources and playing a good amount of the content in the Dragon Age games, I can honestly say there is no good reason for people to hate and persecute elves and that the Humans did it out of sheer envy.

 

You'd be wrong.

 

Elves either incite human wrath, are being completely unreasonable or otherwise just hostile in cases were there have been a clash.

 

That's in the documented cases, there is only speculation as to what led to the initial hostilities but that's neither here nor there. The Dales, armed soldiers crossing the border to butcher a homestead, in our world? As good as declaring war. DAO-the Keeper has to be coaxed into upholding a signed agreement unless if you butcher the folks he cursed, DA2 they are more then willing to boot Merrill out to be humanities problem when they could just stick a dirk in her and be done with it if the acts she is preforming are so 'unacceptable' and dangerous.

 

Ultimately just from a political or personal perspective you can walk away with the notion that these folks don't value the life of humans, don't treat it as equal and are willing to circumvent the legalities of nation states to pursue whatever aim they have at the time, their basically a wandering band of marauders, bandits as the Dalish or as the Dales, a hostile isolationist state that attacked because 'those damn humans be too sexy.'

[nightscrawl]

I can explain why elves in general tends to annoy me , they are often depicted as beautiful , with lots of grace , wise , immortal or super long living , with often great civilization and on the side you have the savages dirty hot headed human .

Yepper, I wholeheartedly agree.

 

The mistreatment of CEs is pretty much a reflection of IRL racism. This isn't fantasy D&D levels of evil - this is the actual kind of mistreatment we saw historically.

This is one of the things I like about the DA series as a whole. Not the actual racism, of course, but the devs decision to depict it as such. It makes the world seem raw, gritty, and real. They're saying, "Just because this world has magic, and dragons, and more than one race of sentient beings, doesn't mean that it is any more clean than our own filthy, selfish world."

 

The enemy doesn't have to be some ancient incomprehensible evil, like the blighted darkspawn. "We have met the enemy and he is us." People -- not just humans, but elves, and dwarves, and Qunari -- do each other enough harm that we don't need an ancient evil to do it for us.

 

To me, that is the whole point of Thedas and the Dragon Age series.

[Tidus]

So, you want us to ignore the actual lore and subscribe to your alternative reality instead? Uh... no. Like it or not, the books and the wiki are actual canon. What's going on in your head is not.

 

As for the last sentence, we have to believe what we're shown. The books and the game do show some human mistreatment of elves, but if it isn't the blatant evil you want it to be, maybe you should adjust your expectations. The writers are making the world they want to make. If the humans in it aren't the demons you want them to be, maybe you need to find another game.

I have enjoy a lot of RPGs where I didn't get to know the backgrounds and was no less the player for the lack of knowledge.

 

Humans in the DA books and in the games is indeed evil creatures that has cause more mayhem then the Dalish or CE could in two life times.

 

Unless one is blinded by Elf hate one should easily see that.

[MisterJB]

I remember Zathrian being pretty calm and reserved throughout your entire first meeting with him no matter what you say. Either way though, the reason that he and guards are leery of outsiders is because their experience with them has mostly been negative. If you are polite to Zathrian as a human he's surprised and acts like he's rarely if ever seen that before.

 

Yeah, that in itself is very annoying. It's just like Marethari in DA2 if you play a Diplomatic Hawke.

 

"There is truth in your face child, a rare thing in a human. Hey, everyone come check this out, a truthfull human!"

 

 

[nightscrawl]

I have enjoy a lot of RPGs where I didn't get to know the backgrounds and was no less the player for the lack of knowledge.

 

Humans in the DA books and in the games is indeed evil creatures that has cause more mayhem then the Dalish or CE could in two life times.

 

Unless one is blinded by Elf hate one should easily see that.

 

You seriously can't see how describing an entire race of people as "evil" is racist? I mean, you didn't even bother to quality with "some" or "many," you simply stated "humans." Please tell me something that Rhys -- the hero of Asunder -- did that was "evil."

 

Evil is a big word, and it gets thrown around too easily. Most of the harm that people do, regardless of race, is from purely selfish motivations. Some a-holes may casually throw around the phrase "knife ear," but most of those have been people with little to no power themselves, like the guards in Denerim when you're breaking into the estate to "rescue" Anora. People like that are bullies and like to lord it over those lesser because it makes them feel big, but they are NOT inherently "evil," they are just a-holes. There is a difference.

 

There are a lot of humans who really don't give a damn one way other the other about elves, city or Dalish, and are just trying to survive. Sure, they may not act if they saw an elf being kicked to death in the street, but that makes them callous or selfish, or too afraid of repercussions on themselves or their families to do anything. That also doesn't make them inherently "evil." There is a difference.

 

I could go on and on.

 

The actions of a FEW do not represent ALL. You continue to insist that for the elves, that some clans trade with humans and so on, yet you don't consider such for humans.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Yeah, that in itself is very annoying. It's just like Marethari in DA2 if you play a Diplomatic Hawke.

 

"There is truth in your face child, a rare thing in a human. Hey, everyone come check this out, a truthfull human!"

 

 

 

I think that is supposed to speak to just how often the two of them experienced the bad side of humanity during their lives. 

[nightscrawl]

I think that is supposed to speak to how often the two of them experience the bad side of humanity during their lives. 

 

With things like this I think it really depends on the delivery. I wasn't bothered by her tone at all, and she just came across as so matronly and wise.

[Ghost Gal]

It doesn't matter what you say. Elf-haters will find reasons to hate elves no matter what you say.

 

1. Elves are Mary Sues.

 

I always love seeing human noble fans say this, since the same players who say this are the ones who played Cousland, Amell, and bought into the Hawke hype.

 

- Cousland is the BIGGEST Mary Sue I've ever seen. The entire Human Noble Origin is just one big hour-long ego stroke, where all the characters and even the opening narrative itself constantly sings the PC's praises for being part of the most super-special-awesome perfect, wonderful, flawless, oldest, richest, most powerful under the royal family, and the most universally beloved noblest family to ever exist, and treats you like you're the Maker's Greatest Gift to Thedas since Andraste just for being part of the illustrious Cousland line. (Then, on top of that, you get the usual praise for just being the Player Character, and then characters who know who you are attribute your awesomeness to being Bryce's son/daughter.)

 

- While no one sings the Amell's praises in DAO, the reveal that Hawke is maternally linked to the Warden Amell has caused many Sue-chasers to retroactively make their Warden Amell because they love the idea of the Amell family being this perfect, special, wonderful, awesome noble family that turns out Thedas' greatest heroes.

 

- Hawke: Need I say more? From Act 1 Hawke is constantly praised and worshiped by everyone s/he meets despite being little more than a glorified errand boy/girl most of the game. Post-game, Hawke is praised and worshiped worldwide as this great hero despite how most of Varric's stories involve Hawke failing miserably at most things s/he tries to do, unintentionally making things worse the few times s/he succeeds. The only things Hawke succeeds at are a) making their fortune in the Deep Roads, which involved losing their last sibling and accidentally finding and causing the red lyrium idol to make it to the surface, defeating the rogue Arishok, which just created a power vacuum for Meredith to fill once Hawke stopped the invasion but then just went home and sat on their ass for the next three years. Both the lyrium idol and the power vacuum contributed to Meredith's increased insanity and power, which increased the tension between mages and Templars in Kirkwall. Then Hawke failed to stop Anders from blowing up the Chantry and failing to stop the Circles from breaking and failing to stop the world from spiraling into open war. (And failed to kill Corypheus. Can't forget that.)

 

Hawke gets all the "greatest hero of the world" treatment without needing any of the accomplishments to warrant the praise. 

 

Players who buy into the Cousland, Amell, and Hawke praise and feel characters should worship their characters more than they already do because they think they're inherently awesome reek of Mary Sue. But sure, yeah, elves (the underdogs who're deemed inherently inferior to humans in every way) are the true Mary Sues. Sure. Yeah.

[LOLandStuff]

I have enjoy a lot of RPGs where I didn't get to know the backgrounds and was no less the player for the lack of knowledge.

 

Humans in the DA books and in the games is indeed evil creatures that has cause more mayhem then the Dalish or CE could in two life times.

 

Unless one is blinded by Elf hate one should easily see that.

 

Guess blind human hatred would help the lot see much better.

[Reznore57]

 

. But sure, yeah, elves (the underdogs who're deemed inherently inferior to humans in every way) are the true Mary Sues. Sure. Yeah.

 

Errr...there are two types of elves in the Dragon Age settings now.

I'm not sure I'd call them Mary Sues , but the ancient elves fit the better than everyone else bills pretty easily , and it's even pushed into the narative with Solas and his quest.

He has no doubt  by virtue of being immortal and magical , the ancient elves lives are worth more than anyone else.

During  DAI he even goes full "Oh you stupid barbaric savages non ancient elves people" thingie , if he likes you he says "Ah yes the humans/dwarves/Qunari stinks and are stupid.But you my friend , you are a special snowflake so I like you".

If he doesn't like you he says "well no surprise you're like this , all humans/Qunari/elves/dwarves are primates only able to throw their own feces."

 

The funny thing is even the Ancient elves spit on the current elves , Abelas and Solas think the current elves are walking failures , some kind of abominations they'd rather not look at.

So currently the ancient elves and the humans have a thing in common , they think the current elves sucks.

[Master Warder Z_]

So currently the ancient elves and the humans have a thing in common , they think the current elves sucks.

 

They should get a apartment and make babies.

[ModernAcademic]

You can't just ignore any evidence that doesn't fit your own idea of what the Dalish should be because it's "plot". All those examples of Dalish attacking humans, etc, are also there because of "plot".

 

It's been repeatedly stated that Dalish culture is fragmented, and all clans are different. Lavellan isn't the first time you can play as a Dalish who doesn't hate humans, you could do that all the way back in Origins, aka potentially the very first Dalish elf in the game. Merril in DA2 doesn't hate you for being human, she can be your friend or romance option. So every single Dragon Age game can have either a Dalish protagonist or companion that doesn't fit your definition.

 

I'm also going to point out, that any Lavellans who remove their vallaslin probably aren't doing it for "love", but because they are slave markings.

 

There's no evidence the Dalish treat humans with fairness. The only clans that were an exception to the rule were in DA:Inquisition and both were related to quests and the main plot itself: Clan Lavellan, where the Inquisitor comes from and the nomadic clan we meet in Orlais, full of small quests that give us points.

 

Both in Origins and in DA2, the dalish are hostile and have no desire for contact with humans. Videogames often bend the rules of the world they create for plot reasons. That's not "ignoring evidence". It's seeing the game as it is.

 

And no, Lavellan doesn't choose to remove the markings because they are slave markings. Dalish are proud of their tattoos because they are a connection to the past that they lost. There's a whole deep significance to the vallaslin.

 

Dalish gaining the right to wear vallaslin is a proudful moment. It's like a rite of passage. To have something so integral to an elf's personality removed because of something a stranger, an outsider - because to a Dalish Solas IS an outsider - said about their people is not normal.

A Dalish woud think: how the hell does a common elf knows more about the past of MY people than I do? The least Lavellan would do would be to demand evidence. And if Solas refused to provide such evidence, she would refuse to remove the vallaslin. Remove something which brands her as Dalish and is an element of acceptance within her clan? Never.

 

Like I said, you have to understand the lore of the Dalish and interpret it correctly in order to understand why certain decisions some players make regarding their Inquisitor are incoherent with the character they're playing. Like dating Cullen. Like removing the vallaslin on the words of a common elf who spends too much time in the Fade and whose background is unknown. 

[In Exile]

I think that is supposed to speak to just how often the two of them experienced the bad side of humanity during their lives.

It's still racist. Because "elf" and "human" aren't a culture. It's like saying "You're brave for an elf".

[In Exile]

There's no evidence the Dalish treat humans with fairness. The only clans that were an exception to the rule were in DA:Inquisition and both were related to quests and the main plot itself: Clan Lavellan, where the Inquisitor comes from and the nomadic clan we meet in Orlais, full of small quests that give us points.

Both in Origins and in DA2, the dalish are hostile and have no desire for contact with humans. Videogames often bend the rules of the world they create for plot reasons. That's not "ignoring evidence". It's seeing the game as it is.

And no, Lavellan doesn't choose to remove the markings because they are slave markings. Dalish are proud of their tattoos because they are a connection to the past that they lost. There's a whole deep significance to the vallaslin.

Dalish gaining the right to wear vallaslin is a proudful moment. It's like a rite of passage. To have something so integral to an elf's personality removed because of something a stranger, an outsider - because to a Dalish Solas IS an outsider - said about their people is not normal.
A Dalish woud think: how the hell does a common elf knows more about the past of MY people than I do? The least Lavellan would do would be to demand evidence. And if Solas refused to provide such evidence, she would refuse to remove the vallaslin. Remove something which brands her as Dalish and is an element of acceptance within her clan? Never.

Like I said, you have to understand the lore of the Dalish and interpret it correctly in order to understand why certain decisions some players make regarding their Inquisitor are incoherent with the character they're playing. Like dating Cullen. Like removing the vallaslin on the words of a common elf who spends too much time in the Fade and whose background is unknown.

We know for a fact the elves do not treat humans fairly. Merill outright says this when you send them Feynriel: his "humanity" will mark him among the Dalish, not his magic. Can't get a more open admission of racism than that one.

[DebatableBubble]

If we could leave the books and Wiki out of the games we may actually enjoy the games as they was intended instead of become racist toward the Dalish and Elves in general. I like Elves.
 
I found 90% of the Elves woes is due to humans hate for Elves and no one ever mentions the Dwarves dislike for humans either or the fact the Dwarves help the Elves when the humans was chasing them.
 
Humans are far more evil then Elves as the games and the DA books show.

What was that about leaving the books and wiki out of the games?

[DebatableBubble]

It doesn't matter what you say. Elf-haters will find reasons to hate elves no matter what you say. 

I'd argue that elf-haters will continue to hate elves because of what you say,

[Master Warder Z_]

I'd argue that elf-haters will continue to hate elves because of what you say,

 

You made me chuckle, a first of the day.

 

You get a like.

[Abyss108]

There's no evidence the Dalish treat humans with fairness. The only clans that were an exception to the rule were in DA:Inquisition and both were related to quests and the main plot itself: Clan Lavellan, where the Inquisitor comes from and the nomadic clan we meet in Orlais, full of small quests that give us points.

 

Both in Origins and in DA2, the dalish are hostile and have no desire for contact with humans. Videogames often bend the rules of the world they create for plot reasons. That's not "ignoring evidence". It's seeing the game as it is.

 

And no, Lavellan doesn't choose to remove the markings because they are slave markings. Dalish are proud of their tattoos because they are a connection to the past that they lost. There's a whole deep significance to the vallaslin.

 

Dalish gaining the right to wear vallaslin is a proudful moment. It's like a rite of passage. To have something so integral to an elf's personality removed because of something a stranger, an outsider - because to a Dalish Solas IS an outsider - said about their people is not normal.

A Dalish woud think: how the hell does a common elf knows more about the past of MY people than I do? The least Lavellan would do would be to demand evidence. And if Solas refused to provide such evidence, she would refuse to remove the vallaslin. Remove something which brands her as Dalish and is an element of acceptance within her clan? Never.

 

Like I said, you have to understand the lore of the Dalish and interpret it correctly in order to understand why certain decisions some players make regarding their Inquisitor are incoherent with the character they're playing. Like dating Cullen. Like removing the vallaslin on the words of a common elf who spends too much time in the Fade and whose background is unknown. 

 

Are you seriously arguing that events that happen in the game can't be used as an argument for how the world in said game works? You don't see how illogical that is?

 

Whether you like it or not, its there. Burrowing your head in the sand and trying to claim that events that happened, didn't actual happen isn't going to change anything.

 

Also, the Dalish wear the Vallaslin because of incorrect beliefs. Marking you as part of the clan is only half true, its also because they believe that how they used to worship the Gods. You really don't see how someone who comes from people with a history of slavery might not want slave markings on her head? You seem to have a incredibly simplified view of things if you think all people would react the same to this news just because they come from the same culture. That's not how people work.

[DebatableBubble]

You made me chuckle, a first of the day.
 
You get a like.

Thank you kindly.

[Shechinah]

...

 

I see your point but I do disagree with some of it. I'll see if I can get around to formulating and posting why I disagree tomorrow if I am not too tired.
 

[Shechinah]

It's still racist. Because "elf" and "human" aren't a culture. It's like saying "You're brave for an elf".

 

You Are A Credit To Your Race is the trope name, I believe. While people who say this tends to intend for it to be a genuine compliment and even to convey respect, it is racist. It's a cousin to You Must Be One of the Good Ones where a person is considered the exception to the percieved norm.

 

Here's an example of how the former is used in the cartoon Justice League;

 

John Stewart: "It's an honor to fight beside you."

The Streak: "The feeling's mutual. You're a credit to your people, son."

John Stewart: "Uh... thanks." 
 

Marethari genuinely meant it as a compliment but it is a racist remark. It would akin to a human saying to an elf; "You work hard, that's rare for an elf.", and meaning it as a compliment. It's considering most elves to be lazy like how Marethari considers most humans to be dishonest.