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[In Exile]

Are you seriously arguing that events that happen in the game can't be used as an argument for how the world in said game works? You don't see how illogical that is?

Whether you like it or not, its there. Burrowing your head in the sand and trying to claim that events that happened, didn't actual happen isn't going to change anything.

Also, the Dalish wear the Vallaslin because of incorrect beliefs. Marking you as part of the clan is only half true, its also because they believe that how they used to worship the Gods. You really don't see how someone who comes from people with a history of slavery might not want slave markings on her head? You seem to have a incredibly simplified view of things if you think all people would react the same to this news just because they come from the same culture. That's not how people work.

The Dalish Vallaslin at this point is an important part of their cultural expression. We don't know what role it had in the Dales proper. As I recall, didn't Ameridan wear it? It may be that this was an important feature of general religious devotion in the old Dales. That it had an original purpose that was the equivalent of slave marking does not IMO detract from this point.

[Abyss108]

The Dalish Vallaslin at this point is an important part of their cultural expression. We don't know what role it had in the Dales proper. As I recall, didn't Ameridan wear it? It may be that this was an important feature of general religious devotion in the old Dales. That it had an original purpose that was the equivalent of slave marking does not IMO detract from this point.

 

That depends on the character you are playing. Dalish started wearing them because they believe that's how elves used to worship their Gods, you can say that to Solas. You can then either say you want them removed (because they are slave markings), or keep them because they mean more now and it doesn't matter to you what they used to mean. Either option is valid.

 

I'm not arguing that any Dalish should remove the Vallaslin, or that it is a more correct choice, just that ModernAcademic's claim that no Dalish would want to get rid of them is ridiculous.

[nightscrawl]

The Dalish Vallaslin at this point is an important part of their cultural expression. We don't know what role it had in the Dales proper. As I recall, didn't Ameridan wear it? It may be that this was an important feature of general religious devotion in the old Dales. That it had an original purpose that was the equivalent of slave marking does not IMO detract from this point.

 

Yes, Ameridan has vallaslin in JoH. I tend to agree with this. Just because something had a purpose and a particular meaning thousands of years ago -- because that is the length of time we're talking about here -- doesn't mean that that is what it represents today. It does to Solas, of course, because that was his culture. But that is NOT the culture of any modern Dalish elf who use the vallaslin.

 

Of course, that certainly doesn't mean that any individual Dalish might not feel a certain "ick factor" about the whole thing. I certainly would, if it were me. But it would take quite a while for me to determine whether I wanted them removed or not, and certainly not within a single cutscene as happens within DAI. Really, the knowledge of their origin would have to override the cultural significance and importance that they have had in my life until that point. If I woke up every day and, on looking in the mirror, I beheld what I considered to be slave markings, I might have them removed. But again, it would take a while for me to make that determination.

[Shechinah]

The Dalish Vallaslin at this point is an important part of their cultural expression. We don't know what role it had in the Dales proper. As I recall, didn't Ameridan wear it? It may be that this was an important feature of general religious devotion in the old Dales. That it had an original purpose that was the equivalent of slave marking does not IMO detract from this point.

 

An old theory of mine is that a person's vallaslin is decided by which traits the person has that are embodied by which deity. Each of the elven deities supposedly gave gifts to the People and taught them something so the vallaslin could be meant to symbolize how the Creators gave the People gifts and taught them to use said gifts by giving the vallaslin to the people who exhibit these gifts and knowledge. 

 

A Dalish elf with crafting skills would recieve the vallaslin symbolizing their connection to June, the god of the craft. A Dalish elf with hunting skills would recieve the vallaslin of Andruil, goddess of the hunt.  A Dalish elf with halla or navigation skills would recieve the vallaslin of Ghilan'nain, the mother of the Halla and so forth.

 

Inquisitor Ameridan's vallaslin was that of Dirthamen, the Keeper of Secrets, who is believed to have given to elves the gift of knowledge and taught them loyalty and faith in family. If Ameridan exhibited these traits, which I think he did, he might support the theory that this is the further reasoning and meaning behind the vallaslin according to the Dalish.

 

Note: It either kept auto-correcting Ameridan to American or I kept mistakenly typing it as American.

[nightscrawl]

^ It's rather unfortunate that the vallaslin identification with each god wasn't known until DAI came along. I made a couple of Dalish to experience the DAO origin story and it would have been nice to choose one that I felt matched the character I was creating.

[Shechinah]

The Dalish Vallaslin at this point is an important part of their cultural expression. We don't know what role it had in the Dales proper. As I recall, didn't Ameridan wear it?

 

I specifically remember Ameridan's vallaslin because not only was he wearing the same vallaslin as my character, he was the same race and class. All that was difference was his appearance and gender.

 

I like to imaging someone in the Chantry had a sense of deja-vu however unlikely I know it is.
 

[Heimdall]

The Dalish Vallaslin at this point is an important part of their cultural expression. We don't know what role it had in the Dales proper. As I recall, didn't Ameridan wear it? It may be that this was an important feature of general religious devotion in the old Dales. That it had an original purpose that was the equivalent of slave marking does not IMO detract from this point.

In a way it does, because so much of Dalish practice and belief is built around the idea that they are replicating parts of their lost ancient culture. So I wouldn't say it doesn't detract at all.

[ModernAcademic]

If we could leave the books and Wiki out of the games we may actually enjoy the games as they was intended instead of become racist toward the Dalish and Elves in general. I like Elves.

 

 

These events are brought up in the games themselves, to my knowledge, especially in Dragon Age: Inquisition where the first point is a major revelation courtesy of Abelas in the Temple of Mythal. 

 

The second was introduced in Dragon Age: Origins where, I believe, even a Dalish member confirms that some clans are no better than bandits.

 

The third, I think, may have been introduced in Dragon Age: Origins but I am not sure so I'll say that it was brought up in Dragon Age: Inquisition. I believe it is a simplification, however, of the events and reasoning that led to the Fall of the Dales.
 

 

Exactly. The player learns the true reason behind the elves losing the Dales in Jaws of Hakkon. All info on my post came from the games. None was from the books.

 

A Blight erupted suddenly in Orlais and the Dalish, for some reason, broke their promise to aid the Empire should a Blight happen. From what the DLC tells us, it was a lack of communication between the elves and the Empire. Something prevented the elves from helping.

 

The result was the genocide of tens of thousands of combatants and innocents and the Dalish elves losing the concession of lands the Empire had made to them. They lost the right to occupy the region known as the Dales and became a nomadic people.

 

And Ameridan's true feats never made it into History. Only some of it became known to scholars. And even then, it was a reinterpreted version of the facts.

[AlanC9]

Of course, that certainly doesn't mean that any individual Dalish might not feel a certain "ick factor" about the whole thing. I certainly would, if it were me. But it would take quite a while for me to determine whether I wanted them removed or not, and certainly not within a single cutscene as happens within DAI.

Can someone check me on the sequence here? I thought that reveal can happen earlier.

[Abyss108]

Can someone check me on the sequence here? I thought that reveal can happen earlier.

 

It's all one cutscene (final one in Solas romance). You can say you aren't sure what you want to do, but then you have to make a choice before the scene ends.

 

I think Trespasser makes it pretty clear as well, but this is obviously after.

[Dabrikishaw]

That depends on the character you are playing. Dalish started wearing them because they believe that's how elves used to worship their Gods, you can say that to Solas. You can then either say you want them removed (because they are slave markings), or keep them because they mean more now and it doesn't matter to you what they used to mean. Either option is valid.

 

I'm not arguing that any Dalish should remove the Vallaslin, or that it is a more correct choice, just that ModernAcademic's claim that no Dalish would want to get rid of them is ridiculous.

Yeah this. C'mon don't act like it's impossible for any Dalish to want it removed.

[Dean_the_Young]

Yeah this. C'mon don't act like it's impossible for any Dalish to want it removed.

 

I wonder if in the next game we'll get a Dalish-on-Dalish slur of 'Bareface' for those who don't get it tatooed/try to get it removed.

 

Considering how many people already have it, there'd probably be a momentum movement in which they have to defend it lest they feel ashamed, and so try to shame the next generation into going along with it.

[nightscrawl]

^ Well this is assuming that the knowledge will become widely known. We can't know that it will.

[Dean_the_Young]

^ Well this is assuming that the knowledge will become widely known. We can't know that it will.

 

While this is utterly true, I feel the chance for a Dalish companion character plot would be too juicy to pass up.

[In Exile]

Exactly. The player learns the true reason behind the elves losing the Dales in Jaws of Hakkon. All info on my post came from the games. None was from the books.

A Blight erupted suddenly in Orlais and the Dalish, for some reason, broke their promise to aid the Empire should a Blight happen. From what the DLC tells us, it was a lack of communication between the elves and the Empire. Something prevented the elves from helping.

The result was the genocide of tens of thousands of combatants and innocents and the Dalish elves losing the concession of lands the Empire had made to them. They lost the right to occupy the region known as the Dales and became a nomadic people.

And Ameridan's true feats never made it into History. Only some of it became known to scholars. And even then, it was a reinterpreted version of the facts.

That's not quite right. The Dales allowing Orlais to burn under the ravages of the darkspawn poisoned their relationship. But it's not as if this was the only time a country sat on the sidelines in a war. It's clear that it was just a product of the general xenophobic attitude that infected the Dales. This is why, after all, we have the de facto act of war at Red Crossing.

[In Exile]

In a way it does, because so much of Dalish practice and belief is built around the idea that they are replicating parts of their lost ancient culture. So I wouldn't say it doesn't detract at all.

We don't actually know if the Dalish would object to their being servants to their "gods" in the way that we learn the Abelas was a servant to Mythal. I think that's an interesting question to explore.

We never learn just how much support Solas had for his rebellion. Clearly he had some - but for all we know his slave rebellion was not something that found support outside of the downtrodden elves.

[Korva]

You Are A Credit To Your Race is the trope name, I believe. While people who say this tends to intend for it to be a genuine compliment and even to convey respect, it is racist. It's a cousin to You Must Be One of the Good Ones where a person is considered the exception to the percieved norm.

 

Yup. Also applicable to gender, orientation, etc. It's what made the balcony scene with Solas so revolting for me, and if memory serves it wasn't even possible to call him out for it. (I used to like him in the base game, for the most part, and was hoping for a cool friendship moment, so this was a real gutpunch instead.) It's a really bad attitude, and when you point that out you often risk "OMG what's wrong with you can't you take a compliment" gaslighting -- which reveals how thin the veneer of supposed "respect" actually is.

[In Exile]

Solas is super racist. He's affable about it, and is less of a racist by the end of the DAI depending on your relationship. Still, he admits in Trespasser he didn't even view non-Elvhen as people. As racist as the moment is from a neutral POV, Solas was enough of a racist before that this is actually a seminal character development moment.

[Shechinah]

Solas is super racist. He's affable about it, and is less of a racist by the end of the DAI depending on your relationship. Still, he admits in Trespasser he didn't even view non-Elvhen as people.

 

I believe Solas included elves in his non-people category since he says this to an elven Inquisitor as far as I can remember.
 

[In Exile]

[Dbl post ]

[In Exile]

I believe Solas included elves in his non-people category since he says this to an elven Inquisitor as far as I can remember.

Yes. It's why I used "elvhen". He thinks the ancient elves were people. Not so much the modern version.

[Shechinah]

Ah, I sometimes hear elvhen used to encompass modern elves as well so I misunderstood.

[In Exile]

Ah, I sometimes hear elvhen used to encompass modern elves as well so I misunderstood.

That's fair. I'm not one of those. We need a name for the old elves that doesn't sound as racist or ridiculous as calling them by their self-styled title of "the People". So I use "Elvhen" which as far as I can tell is the name of their nation.

[Seraphim24]

Depiction is not endorsement. I don't think we're meant to see the oppression of elves as a good thing at any point in the series. That doesn't mean the elves are always portrayed as blameless and innocent in the conflict- they're just people, who can be as flawed as the humans in the series are individually. But unlike with the mages vs. mundanes issue, there have been no attempts to provide an argument for why humans might reasonably mistreat elves as a group. It's telling that we've never had an anti-elf companion, while we've had several who express mistrust of mages, and Fenris who straight-up hates them, at least at first. (Sera is against elfiness, but not against elves.) Which makes sense, because wariness of people who can set things on fire with their minds makes a lot more sense than hating people just because they've got pointy ears.

 

It is endorsement, the characters and companions are constantly deprived of a third way in all matters,how hard would it be to find a candidate that's not Alistair or Loghain or Anora that would end the system of Alienages on the spot?

 

But isn't that what you are saying, there is no attempt to explain it, isn't that even worse?

[Seraphim24]

The mistreatment of CEs is pretty much a reflection of IRL racism. This isn't fantasy D&D levels of evil - this is the actual kind of mistreatment we saw historically. 

 

That wasn't my point at all, my point is that your characters, throughout the course of the DA experience, actively support, promote and otherwise defend the people responsible for this mistreatment.

 

Whether it's based on reality or not is pretty much irrelevant, the point is the actual course of the conduct in the game.

 

The Arl of Redcliffe's support, it's pretty absurd to think he has literally never had a hand in maintaining the current system of oppression, whether by regular votes or just by association with the Fereldan state. In other words, it's pretty impossible to believe he doesn't on some level A) Know about it and by continuing in his role as Arl, and B ) support it.

 

And yet you can waltz in as a Dalish Elf and it's like he'll treat you ultimately like your his close relative, that makes... no sense.

 

Or take Cailan, Cailan who the character is constantly encourage to support, he's the king of Fereldan, and he never bothered in the middle of all this to end this kind of completely bad thing. Or when Alistair becomes King, he couldn't say, oh and lets end this horrible abomination of mistreatment for no reason.

 

At best, it's extremely inconsistent, at worst... well... it's the worst.