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[Jedi Master of Orion]

No. That's not how it works. That's racism. That's exactly what makes it super racist. Some humans might try to drive them off. That makes it understandable that the Dalish would attack those specific humans. It does not justify them killing some other humans and taking their stuff. In fact, it doesn't justify taking their stuff at all. 

 

That's like saying Orlais was in the right to execute a baker in the Dales after the their war because some other unrelated elf gleefully arranged to have Montsimmard burn. 

 

In fact, it's exactly this kind of racism that was the root cause for why there was a war between Orlais and the Dales in the first place. On both sides. 

 

I didn't bring that up because I believe it justifies banditry. Obviously it doesn't. I brought it up because the Dalish don't simply have "a chip on their shoulders because of stories." Their attitude is a result of their current everyday experience, which is that they have be constantly on the run from humans.

 

There's absolutely a reason to conclude the Dales did it for racist reasons, and that's because Ameridan tells you they did it for racist reasons. It wasn't antipathy for Orlais. It was antipathy for humans, and it wasn't even universal. 

 

Let's put it this way: it's not de facto racist for someone to refuse to serve food to another person, until they say they're doing it because "F" the "N" word. 

 

The exact words of Ameridan's memories are "Some of my brothers would let those creatures destroy Orlais. They think Drakon no better than the Imperium." 

 

That very specifically describes antipathy for Orlais, rather than hatred of the human race.

 

That's super racist! Elves have plenty of reasons to hate the Tevinters. They have totally independent reasons to hate Orlais. And they have totally independent reasons to hate, say, Ferelden. 

 

More to the point, you're still glossing over the entire history of the war with Orlais. The Dales invaded first. They were winning. They committed an act of war that would, without a doubt, IRL start WWIII if it happened between, say, the U.S. and Russia. 

 

 

Every human population (or near enough) has a currently hostile policy towards the Dalish Clans. There's also the fact that the Chantry itself was the banner under which the armies marched. Their current wary attitude towards strangers is a consequence of what they can come to likely expect from encountering them in present day. 

 

Of course, I didn't say "humans' actions" as to mean that all humanity is collectively guilty of everything that was done to the elves. But it's more convenient to type out than individually listing each nation. But my point still stands even though it's a case of having individual reasons to blame individual nations. It still means the they have a good reason to blame others for what was done to them.

 

But what does more sound like collectively blaming an entire race would be this for example: 

 

Two elves openly admitting the flaws and crimes commited by the elven people. 

Elves are as mediocre as humans, dwarves and any other race. The fact they didn't lift a finger to save innocents from a darkspawn invasion shows their true colours.

 

 

Also, the history doesn't say launched an invasion first. Only that the Dales was winning. And that still wouldn't justify Orlais ethnically cleansing the Dales. Certainly if either Russia or USA did that to the almost the entire population of the other after a war, those who were driven from their homes would have reason to blame the opposite side.

[Seraphim24]

I think DA:I is very much the same kind of subversion, except they swapped the one thing they took out from DA:O to DA2 - the fact that the PC's murdering everyone works out great in the immediate term and resolves conflicts. DA2's biggest subversion - which I think most players did not accept - is that killing someone can't fix a problem. 

 

You got that backwards, did you miss the enemies raining from the sky?

 

You basically dethrone or kill every major NPC/character/leader on your own personal ascendancy. And speaking of supporting abusive systems, you are asked to view Hawke's ascent as one of triumph when Kirkwall's history is of deep hatreds.

 

Dragon Age 2 is essentially just Game of Thrones, and Game of Thrones the primary theme is arguably that murdering everyone works out great.

[LOLandStuff]

Second, the darkspawn are not pure evil rape abominations, see, the Architect. Even if that were true, Elves who truly re-connected with and understood their culture would be more powerful so yes, neutrality has it's advantages, save time and energy now for later.

 

Darkspawns eat men and drag women underground to rape them and make even more darkspawn. The Wardens know it, the Legion of the Dead knows it. Best advice they have for a woman is to kill herself if she get captured.

 

One has to wonder what sort of culture darkspawn has. You must've have skipped the Deep Roads in DA:O. Everything I saw was weird tumors growing underground and hoards of darkspawn hellbent on ruining my day.

 

And really, elves didn't bother maintaining a friendly relation with humans, at least for trade. What makes you think they'd try to understand the darkspawn? They corrupt people just by sneezing in they general direction.

 

Darksawpn culture, really...

[Illegitimus]

And why not?

 

Well YOU might be, but I'm not.  

[Seraphim24]

Darkspawns eat men and drag women underground to rape them and make even more darkspawn. The Wardens know it, the Legion of the Dead knows it. Best advice they have for a woman is to kill herself if she get captured.

 

One has to wonder what sort of culture darkspawn has. You must've have skipped the Deep Roads in DA:O. Everything I saw was weird tumors growing underground and hoards of darkspawn hellbent on ruining my day.

 

And really, elves didn't bother maintaining a friendly relation with humans, at least for trade. What makes you think they'd try to understand the darkspawn? They corrupt people just by sneezing in they general direction.

 

Darksawpn culture, really...

 

They're pretty pure evil, but not completely, just to be completely clear.

 

The Architect wasn't like a one off, he/she/it was part of a larger group, but yes, in general the darkspawn are pretty chaotic evil. I wouldn't really read too much into that one point.

[Seraphim24]

Well YOU might be, but I'm not.  

 

And why not?

[Illegitimus]

I think DA:I is very much the same kind of subversion, except they swapped the one thing they took out from DA:O to DA2 - the fact that the PC's murdering everyone works out great in the immediate term and resolves conflicts. DA2's biggest subversion - which I think most players did not accept - is that killing someone can't fix a problem. 

 

 

There were certainly problems in DA2 that could be solved by killing someone.  And then there were other problems that just could not be solved by any means.   

[nightscrawl]

The problem with the elves not helping during the Blight is that it's really short-sighted. Blights do not differentiate between race. E v e r y o n e is in danger from them. Helping a nation, even one you hate with the fire of a thousand suns, is helping yourself.
 
 

And why not?

The answer to this is quite simple: it is not within the scope of the game. Neither is abolishing the Circle system, or the dwarven caste system, if those are your preferred causes. DAO focuses on the Blight, and the only reason the Warden PC even gets involved with the Ferelden war of succession, or goes to any of those other places, is because of the Blight. Just like the only reason Duncan is there to save our PC's arse in any of the origin stories is because of the Blight. The Blight is the overarching theme for Dragon Age: Origins because it is a singular cause that allows the story to encompass a wide swath and allows the player to become familiar with the basics of Thedas since, out of necessity, they are exposed to the various aspects of it.
 
Blight > EVERYTHING.
 
Or you know, we can just let the whole of Thedas get destroyed: the humans, the dwarves, the Qunari, and the elves... then there would be no more oppression.

[Seraphim24]

The problem with the elves not helping during the Blight is that it's really short-sighted. Blights do not differentiate between race. E v e r y o n e is in danger from them. Helping a nation, even one you hate with the fire of a thousand suns, is helping yourself.
 
 

The answer to this is quite simple: it is not within the scope of the game. Neither is abolishing the Circle system, or the dwarven caste system, if those are your preferred causes. DAO focuses on the Blight, and the only reason the Warden PC even gets involved with the Ferelden war of succession, or goes to any of those other places, is because of the Blight. Just like the only reason Duncan is there to save our PC's arse in any of the origin stories is because of the Blight. The Blight is the overarching theme for Dragon Age: Origins because it is a singular cause that allows the story to encompass a wide swath and allows the player to become familiar with the basics of Thedas since, out of necessity, they are exposed to the various aspects of it.
 
Blight > EVERYTHING.
 
Or you know, we can just let the whole of Thedas get destroyed: the humans, the dwarves, the Qunari, and the elves... then there would be no more oppression.

 

Would not of been impossible to design the game slightly different. The choice shouldn't be been between imminent destruction and supporting bad system, there is just literally no reason for the Elvish experience in DA to be what it is at all, or even Elves to even be in the game.

[nightscrawl]

Would not of been impossible to design the game slightly different. The choice shouldn't be been between imminent destruction and supporting bad system, there is just literally no reason for the Elvish experience in DA to be what it is at all, or even Elves to even be in the game.

 

Ok, so... if there were no elves, but the devs wanted to show a system of oppression and made them human, but of a different religion, or a different color, would that be acceptable to you?

 

It is part of the world as the devs wanted to design it. That's it, really. Thedas is not a nice place to live for the majority of the people who live there.

[Seraphim24]

Ok, so... if there were no elves, but the devs wanted to show a system of oppression and made them human, but of a different religion, or a different color, would that be acceptable to you?

 

You would imply that I would support systems of repression against people based on their religion or skin color, based one just one simple singe I've revealed about myself, which is my ongoing rejection of one of the primary and most glaring system of repression found in DA?

 

There are literally 10 thousand ways for me to destroy you argumentatively in this.

 

But because there are so many options, I lose interest, so I'll just keep it simple.

 

No.

 

It is part of the world as the devs wanted to design it. That's it, really. Thedas is not a nice place to live for the majority of the people who live there.

 

Obviously, and that's the problem.

 

Would not push and gripe on DA so much, if Bioware developers and fans were more respectful towards other franchises and games.

 

And people, and, everything.

[Nimlowyn]

If you believe the depiction of oppression equals the support if it, perhaps Dragon Age isn't for you.

[Seraphim24]

If you believe the depiction of oppression equals the support if it, perhaps Dragon Age isn't for you.

 

It's not a mere depiction, your character is supporting that system.

[Seraphim24]

The Architect is an even worse rape abomination than the rest of the darkspawn. If you're actually arguing that the darkspawn aren't evil but humans are, in this setting, you're ridding a kind of crazy train I don't want to be within 100 feet of at any point

 

I'm not, I pointed out that Elven neutrality wasn't based on support for Darkspawn per se, but rather in order to re-obtain Elven culture, and thus, power.

 

Darkspawn is pretty crazy chaotic evil, which I guess you just missed in that other post, where I said, they are "chaotic evil."

 

The Architect is simply not chaotic evil, possibly more like lawful evil, also not necessarily not evil.

 

And if you're going to start saying that Genitivi - and by extension, the developers - are making false accounts to slander the Dalish then, again, you're full up on a crazy train none of us want to get on in any way.

 

The developers have stated on several occassions they are influenced by the notion of unreliable narrators (i.e. Game of Thrones, Usual Suspects).

 

(Also we get it, you like the crazy train analogies)

[In Exile]

Isn't is speciesist? Not racist? It's like the reason why everyone hates Darkspawn, isn't it?

 

No, it's racist. It's racist because fantasy species are just parables for actual IRL cultures. The interesting question with the Dalish - whose views on race, inter-race relations, etc. are basically what white supremacists IRL think  - is whether their actually offensive racist views are OK because, in-setting, races are real and not social constructs. I'm of the view that it's rank insanity to say that the white supremacists IRL would have a point if race were real. But some people seem willing to make that concession. 

 

The darkspawn are special, because - as we're discussing in the other threat - they're actually evil and poisonous rape abominations. There's an interesting question as to whether it's racist 

[AlanC9]

This should be amusing.

[AlanC9]

**Mod edit**

 

How about in Middle Earth? Races are real there, and an elven supremacist would have the facts on his side, especially when comparin the Eldar to, say, untermenschen such as humans with a bit of orc blood.

[AlanC9]

**Mod edit**

 

As predicted, it's already amusing.

I'm only sidelining because In Exile hardly needs my support here. Besides, I find the other topics in the thread more interesting.

[Seraphim24]

Let me just say, Fereldan has a system of alienages, every other citizen of Fereldan goes "ew Elves get out of my house," it's clearly a country that has significant amounts of mistreatment towards some Elves based solely on the fact that they are Elvish, that's just not really debatable, it's in the City Elf Origin and other areas as well.

 

You could argue the Dalish and Fereldan actually have a tacit co-existence, that they simply live separately, none of that would excuse the alienage though ultimately.

[ModernAcademic]

You would imply that I would support systems of repression against people based on their religion or skin color, based one just one simple singe I've revealed about myself, which is my ongoing rejection of one of the primary and most glaring system of repression found in DA?

 

There are literally 10 thousand ways for me to destroy you argumentatively in this.

 

But because there are so many options, I lose interest, so I'll just keep it simple.

 

No.

 

 

Obviously, and that's the problem.

 

Would not push and gripe on DA so much, if Bioware developers and fans were more respectful towards other franchises and games.

 

And people, and, everything.

 

 

So you're here to show how morally superior you are by repeatedly pointing out how every member that's discussing elves and elven lore in the DA franchise in this thread is essentially wrong, according to your own personal, private morality, rather than discuss the actual in-game content and contribute to the further understanding of the topic? 

 

Glad I know in advance you're wasting people's time.

[AlanC9]

How about in Middle Earth? Races are real there, and an elven supremacist would have the facts on his side, especially when comparin the Eldar to, say, untermenschen such as humans with a bit of orc blood.

How about in Middle Earth? Races are real there, and an elven supremacist would have the facts on his side, especially when comparin the Eldar to, say, untermenschen such as humans with a bit of orc blood.

Edit: No post. System seems to have glitched out when I tried to correct a spelling mistake.

[Seraphim24]

So you're here to show how morally superior you are by repeatedly pointing out how every member that's discussing elves and elven lore in the DA franchise in this thread is essentially wrong, according to your own personal, private morality, rather than discuss the actual in-game content and contribute to the further understanding of the topic? 

 

Glad I know in advance you're wasting people's time.

 

I'm just stating the facts of the franchise.

 

Can we get to the fact that I actually kind of like DA? Right now I'm just dealing with the fact that these boards have some pretty terrible people in them, which doesn't really have anything to do with DA or anything else.

 

My initial point was to critique their treatment, nothing more, nothing less, I didn't expect people would rise to such extremely disgusting and reprehensible behavior.

[Illegitimus]

Would not of been impossible to design the game slightly different. The choice shouldn't be been between imminent destruction and supporting bad system, there is just literally no reason for the Elvish experience in DA to be what it is at all, or even Elves to even be in the game.

 

Of course there's a reason.  To keep the world from being a shiny happy boring fairyland.  There's a reason why the most popular origin is "Female City Elf" you know.  She's the most awesome character.  

[In Exile]

I didn't bring that up because I believe it justifies banditry. Obviously it doesn't. I brought it up because the Dalish don't simply have "a chip on their shoulders because of stories." Their attitude is a result of their current everyday experience, which is that they have be constantly on the run from humans.

 

? I didn't say they did. I just pointed out that there's clear textual evidence of their banditry. 

 

 

 

The exact words of Ameridan's memories are "Some of my brothers would let those creatures destroy Orlais. They think Drakon no better than the Imperium." 

 

That very specifically describes antipathy for Orlais, rather than hatred of the human race.

 

Nope, racism. The next line is "If we do not stand with the humans against the darkspawn, we might lose everything we have gained." You have to read the line in context. Read in context, the line is meant to convey his dismay that his people think one human is as bad as another. 

 

 

Every human population (or near enough) has a currently hostile policy towards the Dalish Clans. There's also the fact that the Chantry itself was the banner under which the armies marched. Their current wary attitude towards strangers is a consequence of what they can come to likely expect from encountering them in present day. 

 

Still racist. They can hate the Chantry. They can hate Ferelden for the political system it imposes. They can hate people like Vaughn. When they hate "humans", it's super racist, because there isn't some universal catch all group getting together in a room while drinking brandy and talking about how great it is to oppress elves. 

 

Racism doesn't stop because racism just because the racist have a reason for it. The idea that racism is the product of some kind of uncontrolled negative animus is stupid, and IRL something that actual racists use quite a lot to their advantage to defend their racism. 

 

Also, the history doesn't say launched an invasion first. Only that the Dales was winning. And that still wouldn't justify Orlais ethnically cleansing the Dales. Certainly if either Russia or USA did that to the almost the entire population of the other after a war, those who were driven from their homes would have reason to blame the opposite side.

The Dales not invading first no differences in terms of their moral culpability. It does, however, make absolutely no sense from a logistical POV. This is why I always start from the position they invaded (as a pre-emptive move). Consider for a moment.

 

If Orlais is the aggressor, then the Dalish have to win at first - there's no way the war reaches Orlais proper, otherwise. But the Dalish don't just defend themselves - they start a military invasion, and start sacking Orlesian cities, with all the associated rapes and massacres a medieval invasion entails. 

 

Of course it doesn't justify Orlais' ethnic cleasing (though strictly speaking I think it's more properly a crime against humanity). But discussions about the Dales war with Orlais is never about justifying the genocide. Well, I suppose there are some whackjobs that want to do that one. But no one normal is looking to justify it.

 

Rather, the issue is always whether the Dales were victims before that point. And the history is overwhelming that the Dales were not, and were in fact principally responsible for the war by handing Orlais a clear casus belli and otherwise embracing 

[sandalisthemaker]

Of course there's a reason.  To keep the world from being a shiny happy boring fairyland.  There's a reason why the most popular origin is "Female City Elf" you know.  She's the most awesome character.  

 

I would have thought it was Cousland based off sheer numbers.

 

 

Also, what teh fak is going on in here?