757 réponses à ce sujet

[DebatableBubble]

Why do you want me to give up on you?

Asellus x In Exile is best ship.

[Seraphim24]

Well lets try this again then.

[sandalisthemaker]

Thank you, Sandal.

 

I liked the one you had with the pink hair a while back as well.

 

Oh Slurpuff!!!

 

 

Slurpuff is actually my fabulous alter-ego.   I'll bring that one out again at some point!

[DebatableBubble]

I'm genuinely surprised that this thread has lasted this long.

[Seraphim24]

I'm genuinely surprised that this thread has lasted this long.

 

As I said already, it's actually fine, we are talking about DA, but he let his emotions get the best of him in a pretty seriously bad way.

[AlanC9]

My sense is he wanted to point out that DA is a world with lots of racial categorizations, which is true, but that's different from hatreds and vengeance based upon race, and it's still sitting there.

Why shouldn't it sit there? Both statements are true.

[sandalisthemaker]

I'm genuinely surprised that this thread has lasted this long.

 

We are currently, as of this typing, unmoderated I believe. 

[sandalisthemaker]

Actually,  scratch that.  That's not true.

 

08 is on the prowl. 

[Seraphim24]

Why shouldn't it sit there? Both statements are true.

 

That DA has racial categorizations, and that it has violence based on hatreds?

 

Was anyone disputing that?

[DebatableBubble]

Actually,  scratch that.  That's not true.
 
08 is on the prowl.

Great success!

[Seraphim24]

Look, DA is intended to be complicated world, we get that.

[sandalisthemaker]

Great success!

 

The Botmods are FABULOUS! ZOMG

[Lady Artifice]

Oh Slurpuff!!!

 

 

Slurpuff is actually my fabulous alter-ego.   I'll bring that one out again at some point!

 

I hope so! It's so adorable. And it's name is Slurpuff! 

 

(Thank you for helping me calm down). 

[Nimlowyn]

That's what makes it so scary.

 

The last time he "had a plan", he ended up nuking a temple and punching a hole in the sky. Before that one, he effectively lobotomized his entire race. The surest sign of an oncoming apocalypse in the DA setting is Solas nee Fen'Harel saying "Dude... I got this."

Maker do I hear that, this dude keeps messing up. Solas does say he raised the veil because it was the best of terrible options, but at this stage, I'm unsure how much to believe him. I want to believe it was the lesser of evils..

 

And you know what really kills me? After Haven, when he tells you the orb is elven? I don't have the exact quote, but if you're Dalish, he tells you that it is very important that Thedas doesn't see elven magic "striking at the heart of human faith". He's telling you that if you don't contain this situation it could go badly for the elves. He seems concerned. It was a major turning point for my Inquisitor. But this was all part of his act. He was going to use elven magic to strike at the heart of all existence, human or otherwise. He doesn't care about the elves, not the modern elves he was pretending to be concerned for. Talk about a betrayal. And this dude is my LI. 

[ModernAcademic]

Alright, you adorable, sexy people. Now back to elf hate.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I mean, deconstructing elf hate.

[sandalisthemaker]

I hope so! It's so adorable. And it's name is Slurpuff!   

 

(Thank you for helping me calm down). 

 

It's one of my favorite Pokemon ever!  Equal parts cute and ridiculous.

 

It's also a FAIRY type.  Which amuses me to no end.

 

Oh, on topic:   Yes, Elves are subjected to hatred.   I would like to see things improve for the city elves, but I want said improvement to be well-done story wise, and not rushed and simplified. 

[AlanC9]

That DA has racial categorizations, and that it has violence based on hatreds?
 
Was anyone disputing that?

I thought you were, here:

My sense is he wanted to point out that DA is a world with lots of racial categorizations, which is true, but that's different from hatreds and vengeance based upon race, and it's still sitting there.

Though this isn't all that clear.

[AlanC9]

And you know what really kills me? After Haven, when he tells you the orb is elven? I don't have the exact quote, but if you're Dalish, he tells you that it is very important that Thedas doesn't see elven magic "striking at the heart of human faith". He's telling you that if you don't contain this situation it could go badly for the elves. He seems concerned. It was a major turning point for my Inquisitor. But this was all part of his act. He was going to use elven magic to strike at the heart of all existence, human or otherwise. He doesn't care about the elves, not the modern elves he was pretending to be concerned for. Talk about a betrayal. And this dude is my LI.

Well, he cares for them a little. Like they're, I don't know, stray cats or something. He doesn't want them to suffer, and he'd like to see their lives made easier.... as long as it doesn't get in the way of anything actually important.

[Nimlowyn]

Well, he cares for them a little. Like they're, I don't know, stray cats or something. He doesn't want them to suffer, and he'd like to see their lives made easier.... as long as it doesn't get in the way of anything actually important.

Well, you're not wrong. It's just unfortunate that he doesn't care enough not to cause them all to die.

 

He's in a tough spot. I feel for him, I do. He's a good man doing something terrible for what he believes are moral reasons. He can't forget the people long ago who he caused so much suffering, those who went into uthenera weeping. I just have a lot of mixed feelings...it is what makes Solas so great as a character.

 

I'm really interested in what Thedas will be like for the elves, all elves, city and Dalish, in DA4.

[sandalisthemaker]

08, is that you removing posts?

 

I know you're out there....  You are the reclusive one.  Like Sasquatch. 

 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

? I didn't say they did. I just pointed out that there's clear textual evidence of their banditry. 

 

Then why bring it up? I wasn't even talking about the banditry in that paragraph. 

 

Nope, racism. The next line is "If we do not stand with the humans against the darkspawn, we might lose everything we have gained." You have to read the line in context. Read in context, the line is meant to convey his dismay that his people think one human is as bad as another. 

 

No. You are reading the implication of his words wrong. He wasn't talking about the motives of his compatriots in that sentence. Orlesians are an example of "the humans" he was talking about, so all he's saying is that he wants the Dales to aid Orlais. People aren't necessarily talking about the entirety of a race when they speak of them in conversation. But moreover, humans were the only other nations in Thedas. Ameridan was simply stating a fact that the only people around to even be helped against the Blight are humans. The Dales opted to sit out a war with the darkspawn where all the other participants were humans, but it doesn't necessarily follow that they must have done so because of the race of all the said participants.

 

Still racist. They can hate the Chantry. They can hate Ferelden for the political system it imposes. They can hate people like Vaughn. When they hate "humans", it's super racist, because there isn't some universal catch all group getting together in a room while drinking brandy and talking about how great it is to oppress elves. 

 

Racism doesn't stop because racism just because the racist have a reason for it. The idea that racism is the product of some kind of uncontrolled negative animus is stupid, and IRL something that actual racists use quite a lot to their advantage to defend their racism. 

 

I know. I'm not sure why you seem to keep thinking that I don't. All the individual nations and institutions of human civilization in Thedas all have hostile attitude towards the Dalish Clans, therefore they have a negative or wary attitude towards the people of each of those individual nations and institutions. 

 

If Orlais is the aggressor, then the Dalish have to win at first - there's no way the war reaches Orlais proper, otherwise. But the Dalish don't just defend themselves - they start a military invasion, and start sacking Orlesian cities, with all the associated rapes and massacres a medieval invasion entails. 

 

Of course it doesn't justify Orlais' ethnic cleasing (though strictly speaking I think it's more properly a crime against humanity). But discussions about the Dales war with Orlais is never about justifying the genocide. Well, I suppose there are some whackjobs that want to do that one. But no one normal is looking to justify it.

 

 

The main reason I re-entetred this thread when I did was specifically in response to the claim that the elves current predicament are something they caused themselves and also they are the ones primarily responsible for keeping it that way. Specifically this: 

 

The way I see it as a player, they brought their fate upon themselves and will continue to suffer by their own hands until they learn they are arrogant, violent and wrong in their assumptions about their past, their identity as a people and learn to improve their relationship with the rest of the world.

 

 

But the Fall of Halamshiral and the destruction of the Dales are the events that are most directly responsible for the current situation between elves and humans. I don't even really know why we are even talking about how the war started. It's only indirectly relevant to my point.

[Seraphim24]

Phew.... ok, lets try this again.

 

It seems to me, that In Exile is arguing that simple categorization is the essence of the problem or something.

 

Which is like well, I respectfully disagree, categories are just what people use at times, that's it, it's a very different thing from that point into hatreds or mistreatment based on those categories, there is no equivalency between those two things.

 

There is a rather big, important, and central difference between those things, but again, I get it I'm sure he would likely disagree with that, but I'm not going to vigorously try and censure that point or something, that's his opinion he is entitled to I suppose.

 

On a related matter, I'm well aware that what I see or point out bothers people but frankly the relationship has been odd, because it seems to me oftentimes people are interested or even engaged in what I have to say.

 

However, this is certainly no requirement we continue these discussions. If people are not going to be civil in the discussions, then I can certainly just leave.

 

I suppose, maybe this is a way of understand just how we relate to each other.... I am not a faceless empty proponent of Dragon Age or Bioware, or many things, or sycophantic, get that through your collective heads already.

 

If that's what you want, or at least, just generic support, we don't have to talk anymore.

 

However, I am not a faceless, empty hater of Dragon Age either or Bioware either, I criticize, but if that happens, it is going to be objective and as fair as possible.

 

I've criticized many things in my life, I can remember taking Everquest to task on their forums a long time ago... sensing that something was just wrong about it all. I've criticized Blizzard. It happens.

 

My sense is people sometimes think about certain issues do not get a fair chance to discuss nuances, which is unfortunate.

 

However, I am not going to strain my opinion just because people react to some ideas negatively. I'm also not going to press the points either if people don't want that, it seems fair on some level if people just want to have DA and support DA good for them.

 

I think it's entirely fair for Bioware and Dragon Age to embrace their achievements, whatever those might be, and seek a place for themselves where they deal with things on their own terms and places, provided that is what they truly wish to engage to do.

 

In no world, however, will I permit this notion that it was my failure to be understanding and objective that caused us to move in different directions.

[Illegitimus]

That's the very essence of my issue. There isn't a universal "elf" culture, or "human" culture in DA. 

 

 

Universal?  No.  But of the human civilizations, the Free Marches, Ferelden and Orlais constitute a coherent bloc in terms of their relationship with elves, driven to a large extent by sharing a common religion based in Orlais.  While the three settings do have cultural differences, they aren't different in a way that makes much of a  difference to this particular issue.  And those are the only three settings we've actually seen.  

[Seraphim24]

I really probably am just going to leave these forums and threads behind at one point or another, I hope you all find ways to be happy one way or another....

[ModernAcademic]

But the Fall of Halamshiral and the destruction of the Dales are the events that are most directly responsible for the current situation between elves and humans. I don't even really know why we are even talking about how the war started. It's only indirectly relevant to my point.

 

The ELVES brought the destruction of the Dales upon themselves when they decided to ignore what any race was supposed to do during a Blight and refused to defend innocents. They had a responsibility. They turned away from it. Period.

 

Ameridan made it clear they should have done one thing and they decided to do another. Why? Because he's a sensible BEING. That's right. Him being an elf has nothing to do with his decision. He KNOWS that you don't turn your back on people during a darkspawn invasion. That's just cruel. So why did his people make that choice? The only answer I can give you is because of TWO key reasons:

 

1) They obeyed the leaders of the Dales, who made a decision in Ameridan's absence. And it was to let the rest of the world burn on its own.

 

2) Elves are RACIST. Period.

 

 

 

It's not a matter between humans and elves. It's an internal elven affair, entirely. Their racist mentality induces them to form God-knows what kind of mistaken judgements on human societies - as they did on Drakon - and make a decision based SOLELY on that. Not on the facts. No. On their PREJUDICE against humans.

 

An elven child learns since she is born that humans are to blame for the destruction of their past civilizations. We see that in Origins, both as a Dalish and when our Warden sits to hear one of the Dalish tell the story of how the Dales fell. So they are brainwashed from a tender age. When they grown up, they learn to ignore all evidence that humans might not be so bad as portrayed in their elder's stories. This is why you have the option to kill the humans who entered the forest in the beginning of the Dalish Origin. It's an introduction to the racist culture you live in as an elf.

 

Ameridan was the only one born into that culture of hate who had enough experience with humans fighting alongside them to understand why it was WRONG to believe in every FAIRY TALE his people taught him about their kind. That's why he came to the conclusion that the elves HAD to help should a Blight occur, unlike the leaders of the Dales, who were so alienated by that insular culture that they actually thought it was O.K. to keep your arms crossed and let a bunch of people die. Because hey, they are not elves, so our promises mean nothing to them.

 

THE ELVES decided to change their mind and came off as treacherous for the entire Thedas to see. Their inaction was witnessed not only by Orlais. THE ENTIRE THEDAS KNOWS they did NOTHING during a crisis. Dwarves, Qunari (mercenaries or others), city elves, EVERYONE saw they were unreliable.

 

Do you think a trained dwarven warrior would turn his back if he saw someone, REGARDLESS OF RACIAL ORIGIN, being attacked by darkspawn? The mere thought of it is reason for dishonor according to the system of beliefs of their kind.

 

 

 

If elves feel human lives are not worth saving - which is NO SURPRISE because ta-daaah , they ARE racists! - then what other people will they betray in the future because their morality dictates the lives of other races are worth less than their own? Dwarven lives? Qunari lives? What other people will they betray because they came across the almighty Dalish, who nurture a millenial hatred for the race THAT DIDN'T CAUSE THE DOWNFALL OF ARLATHAN, THE DALES OR ANY OTHER ELVEN CIVILIZATION?

 

 

And they still maintain that racist attitude! The Dales fell and they STILL blame humans for the consequences they suffered after that treachery! It's like saying to someone you've just befriended: Don't worry, I've got your back covered, then abandoning said friend to be stabbed in the back several times by an enemy and then blaming him when he breaks the friendship.

 

 

 

And another thing that has to be said: Arlathan was led by mages called Evanuris. What does Evanuris translate to? 

 

MAGE LEADER.

 

As Dorian puts it, it translates to MAGISTER.

 

And who leads Dalish clans nowadays?

 

MAGES.

 

 

The elves just keep repeating the same mistakes from the past. But the humans are to blame for their poor judgement, oh yes! It's so easy to blame it on a convenient scapegoat. Harder to check one's facts and realise all the wrongs that were done in the name of arrogant pride and blind fanatism.

 

 

The elves are victims of hate? Sorry, I don't buy it.

 

The way I see it, a group of elves enslaved their own kind.

A group of elves made blood sacrifices.

An elf created the Veil and the Black City. 

A bunch of elves left innocents to burn and die during a Blight.

An elf attempted to murder the Warden in a cowardly fashion (the wife of the husband killed by werewolves).

 

 

And many other atrocities that speak volumes as to the true character of their race, but that are conveniently swept under the rug because they use victimisation to no end.

 

The very fact Hawke had to stop a Dalish from hunting down a human who was once a werewolf and meant NO THREAT WHATSOEVER TO HER PEOPLE shows how the Dalish are DANGEROUS and FANATICAL.

 

Sorry, but after three games, I just don't buy it anymore. Dalish elves are not victims of hate. If anything, they are PERPETRATORS OF A HATE MENTALITY. They are the ones who keep the hate for humans alive when they were the sole ones responsible for the fate of their own people. A choice was made. Now learn to live with the consequences. Isn't that what humans do ever since the first Magister set foot in the Black City?

 

And they WANT that hate, because then, they feel justified to hate humans in return...and when they decide to kill them.