757 réponses à ce sujet

[Nimlowyn]

 

 

And many other atrocities that speak volumes as to the true character of their race...

 

The ...true character of their race? What's the true character of their race? 

[Abyss108]

I don't have time to post a proper response to any of this right now, just wanted to say I find it kinda ironic to watch people complain about racism whilst claiming an entire race is all the same and outright claiming that the numerous examples to the contrary shouldn't exist because thats not how that race is...

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I didn't think I'd ever have to try to explain exactly why the "You humans are all racist" Turian in Mass Effect 2 is ironic. 

[Seraphim24]

I don't have time to post a proper response to any of this right now, just wanted to say I find it kinda ironic to watch people complain about racism whilst claiming an entire race is all the same and outright claiming that the numerous examples to the contrary shouldn't exist because thats not how that race is...

 

I'm trying to understand the Elves of DA the most recent time I've played it.

 

The reality is I don't really necessarily understand them totally, as a group, or even necessarily, as individuals. Clearly different Elves feel differently.

 

In the Circle tower, there was an Elf studying who seemed relatively happy, I tried to compared the Circle organization as a negative force bent on control, but he seemed to shy away form that.

 

In Loathering, there were Elves that viewed themselves as just members of Fereldan like anyone else, with no indication they felt anything different about themselves then just having pointy ears.

 

In the Dalish origin, most of the Elves there treat the incomers with hostility, but at the same time, they don't seem to go out of their way to actively target or assault Elves.

 

I haven't read every single codex, mined every single piece of data, but in general Elves as a group of Elves as individuals do not seem to have been very actively antagonistic towards... well.. really anyone. Reactive to hostility, sure.

 

In general, Elvish hostility towards humans seems to have been simply a reaction to hostility by other humans whether in group or in part, at least so far as I've seen it, with various humans and Elves abstaining or being more invested in those older hatreds depending.

[Seraphim24]

In my view, as I think I said earlier, the deepest hatreds in Dragon Age seem to be institutional rather than personal. Most people you meet in DA are sort of thinly connected to larger organizations that operate with considerable latitude within them.

 

Those organizations themselves, however, whether it's the state of Fereldan, the connection of various houses, the city of Denerim, the city of Kirkwall, or the Circle Tower, tend to operate on pretty strong biases and hatreds in various places for somewhat incomprehensible reasons.

 

Even the Grey Wardens follow bizzare and archaic rules that have little to do with Elves, such as executing those who later refuse the joining, presumably because it's some kind of trade secret or something that no one else should follow?

 

I don't really seriously object to these things oftentimes because the Grey Wardens are this relatively tiny organization among many, and in theory those rules are supposed to apply only to those who are recruited and elect to join.

[Seraphim24]

But then you are compelled to ask, well why does Dragon Age have so many institutions then if people tend to identify through more personal creeds? I think the friction in the DA universe stems from applying smaller scale organization and concepts to a grander scale.

 

If we just said, we have the people who live in Denerim who often have many individuals who express hatred towards Elves.

 

You know.... I don't know...... maybe...................

 

maybe Dragon Age 2 is a worse game for having made a lot of things simpler and a good Bioware game simultaneously. precisely because it's smaller scale.

 

I feel like Dragon Age 1 was a better game in some ways.... because they were trying to aspire to make a kind of larger scale game, but maybe it was a better game that also wasn't good for them.

 

Because it also demonstrated their kind of inability to hold those larger concepts together in a grander sense. Dragon Age 2 Hawke is actually pretty much apthetic in many ways, the chief conflicts between Qunari and Humans for instance are largely secondary, you are encouraged to try and fight hard for kind of a peaceful resolution, or generally to follow specific character arcs and get lost in romantic tidbits.

 

I think it would be sad to try and force Dragon Age universe with it's itinerant institutions that tend to run on regional and mutual understandings to function in a grand Inquisition.

[Seraphim24]

I guess what I'm saying is, maybe the grander games aren't for Bioware. Dragon Age 1, other games, I can't really think of, all these things were sort of aspirational I guess, but maybe they tend to rupture the kind of calm in the process, so to speak.

 

Dragon Age 2 of the world might often sell lessor stories... even be less but it's more honest, and even if people react negatively they have ever right to just tell these simpler smaller scale stories... it seems reaching their ultimate fulfillment is much more valuable than whatever tiny increase they get by being all super aspirational beyond their means.

 

In essence, I have no problem finding games that do what I want to play if Dragon Age doesn't do what I want, but maybe Bioware (well, they already are) building themselves around a Dragon Age 2 sort of identity.

 

Small stories, about local institutions, single cities, leave the epic clashes to something else.

 

I myself wouldn't likely be interested in playing them, but you know, that's that, and thinking people leaving behind are just happy and feeling more confident with expectations and environments they can actually deal with without getting over-strained would be worth one or even a group of people's happiness because there are alternatives.

 

It's unmistakable that their identity has been shifting back and forth for some time though, so I don't think people can be blamed for being confused about their identity.

 

I also think this is an ethos you could apply to all of their games, including the Mass Effect franchise and all that.

[Seraphim24]

Take Dragon Age 1, for instance, you get a highlight of all the small groups in their own world, it's not connected to a larger struggle per se, and Ostagar, you are a wheel in a much larger machine, and finally, Loathering, a city on the edge of various needs and requirements and interests, people who move between worlds and desires.

 

And then in the camp the first time, it's about getting to know characters on a one to one bias, their personal stories.

 

It seems to me Dragon Age 1 begins to fall apart after that because it's all about the epic struggle, which isn't inherently bad, but that's the point where all these regional institutions which are patently unfit to deal with larger issues and struggles begin to sag and the purpose becomes more questionable.

 

Dragon Age 2 sliced off the sagging portion and just gave you, almost like an American rags to riches story in some ways, it's almost purely about interpersonal conversations and super small scale stuff.

 

So, it doesn't exceed it's ambition, and in doing so, doesn't kind of starting to rip tear and clash. It might be disappointing for people who want to see more resolutions.................. but it's entirely ok to just do that.

 

In essence, their identity, their desires, wants, needs, expressions, requirements, all seem intimately connected to a world like Dragon Age 2.

[Seraphim24]

It seems to me then a clash arose of sorts because people didn't want Dragon Age to settle for Dragon Age 2 or something, or just the idea was it was settling.

 

I can't lie, I didn't like Dragon Age 2 much at all, for a variety of reasons, going all the way down to gameplay and other factors.

 

But it's true that it never did exceed it's own ambition, it was kind of a full realization of what these people actually cared about and wanted, and seems to define what they want and care about going forward.

 

In which case, I would absolutely rather not try and pressure them into doing more, unfortunately, Dragon Age Inquisition was the exact opposite, they went full backwards and tried to sew together this situation like some kind of abomination.

 

Right... now I think I understand, Dragon Age 2 was an admission of weakness, arguably Mass Effect 3 was the same way, a kind of blanket statement of we can't do it.

 

A lot of fans were unhappy that the curtain was falling, they wanted the image of old invincible and perfect Bioware, they wanted to put the curtains over the the expression of humble desires.

 

Well even though I am personally unhappy with this game/thing/world called Dragon Age 2,  I simultaneously am happy as long as most fans and people are happy with it, because in that world, they aren't over-exerting themselves, getting lost in things beyond them. Unlike Dragon Age 1 perhaps, Dragon Age 2 doesn't feel like it's coercing me to follow this or that too much, it's just downscaling, which many people maybe think of as avoiding, but I don't, that seems fine to me.

[Seraphim24]

Believe it or not, this is actually on topic too by the way, the question was deconstructing elf hate. I think the reality is that there isn't really a consolidated group of elf hate or something, there seems to be an interest in elf avoidance perhaps primarily.

 

Consider Dragon Age 2, where are the Elves anyway? That's not Elf hatred if you take out the Origin story, it's avoidance, it's kinda like... fine.

 

Of course they obviously exist, Merrill exists, her clan exists, they are in no way central or determinative of the storyline. Kirkwall has tons of issues obviously but those again are actually dealt with in some depth as they pertain almost exclusively between conflicts between mages and templars. Honestly even the presence of the Qunari is mostly neglected or not discussed.

 

Certain institutions within Dragon Age have pretty questionable policies, but it may be overstating the issue too much to emphasize them, because they are fundamentally organized on regional grounds, where as stated lots of latitude exists in terms of how individual sectors or organizations deal with these situations.

 

It also may be overstating Bioware and their fans interest in these topics generally, it's not that the world of Dragon Age was ever meant to be taken as a super serious statement of this or that, and makes Dragon Age 2 a clear example of precise priorities.

 

It's not that Dragon Age 2 avoids all issues entirely, but simply pits them in smaller and smaller units, the divisions within a city itself for example. If you think about it, having Denerim at all was probably too ambitious, overextending concepts, a city itself can be complicated, maybe the hatreds towards people in the Alienage is primarily just a few people outside the gates, I could certainly believe that Cailan was preciously uninformed about the situation in general.

[Obsidian Gryphon]

Ameridan was the only one born into that culture of hate who had enough experience with humans fighting alongside them to understand why it was WRONG to believe in every FAIRY TALE his people taught him about their kind. That's why he came to the conclusion that the elves HAD to help should a Blight occur, unlike the leaders of the Dales, who were so alienated by that insular culture that they actually thought it was O.K. to keep your arms crossed and let a bunch of people die. Because hey, they are not elves, so our promises mean nothing to them.

 

I would hesitate to name Ameridan as the only elf to reject the nonpartisan stance taken by the Dalish. *There had to be others who think as he did. I believe however, he was the only one who had any influence and leverage over the Dalish leaders to convince them to fight the Blight with the humans.

 

* He could have desired / envisioned that the elves and humans should be united / one people than disparate factions. An example would be the carvings he left behind, combining elven and human beliefs. If he believed strongly / sincerely in unity, then he could not have kept silent, he would have spoken on the subject.

 

Human history of Thedas condemned the Dalish for standing by and watching cities fall but I think the historians would also leave out any mention / record of those who followed Ameridan that might have joined in the fight against the Blight with the humans.

[Seraphim24]

I think I get it.... I think the sex issue was the stinger in DA2, the everyone's bisexual playersexual from the perspective of many fans and others gave away the reality, it was the BIG SECRET and now it was out that a lot of Bioware fans, players, gamers, developers were different sexually. The screen of we're just a gaming company evaporated.

 

Well guess what, NO ONE CARES. I must confess, I do not even notice them in the games I play, it is the story of their character in general that captures my interests, whether they are nice, cruel, or anything in between.

 

If you are a cruel person, people will care. If you are a kind person, people will care. People do not care if you are bisexual or homosexual.

[BBMorti]

Seriously..

[giveamanafish...]

I didn't think I'd ever have to try to explain exactly why the "You humans are all racist" Turian in Mass Effect 2 is ironic. 

In the context of the game world that statement can be seen as ironic. In the broader context in which that statement was made -- the Turian fellow had just been told that he couldn't bring a ceremonial knife onto the space equivalent of an airplane -- it was a race or religion based reference to a real world issue that was being debated in Canada (Bioware HQ in Canada). It was at the least political.  In Canada at the time, the carrying of the kirpan by members of the Sikh Canadian community was a pretty controversial issue :

http://www.thestar.c...h_daggers.html 

 

Lots of public debate about wearing of ceremonial daggers and turbans before than.

 

Although ironically, at the time this guy was serving with distinction in the military and the RCMP (pational police) and has just now become our minister of defence:

http://www.huffingto..._n_8478430.html

 

I actually met a Sikh veteran of the India Pakistan wars. Pretty cool guy, 70s now if alive. He had like 18 medals.

 

-----

 

Dammit, First someone used Jodi Foster for their profile picture. Now Cate Blanchett. Are people trying to make me depressed? 

[Seraphim24]

In the broader context in which that statement was made -- the Turian fellow had just been told that he couldn't bring a ceremonial knife onto the space equivalent of an airplane -- it was a race or religion based reference to a real world issue that was being debated in Canada (Bioware HQ in Canada). It was at the least political.  In Canada at the time, the carrying of the kirpan by members of the Sikh Canadian community was a pretty controversial issue :

http://www.thestar.c...h_daggers.html 

 

Lots of public debate about wearing of ceremonial daggers and turbans before than.

 

Although ironically, at the time this guy was serving with distinction in the military and the RCMP (pational police) and has just now become our minister of defence:

http://www.huffingto..._n_8478430.html

 

I actually met a Sikh veteran of the India Pakistan wars. Pretty cool guy, 70s now if alive. He had like 18 medals.

 

-----

 

Dammit, First someone used Jodi Foster for their profile picture. Now Cate Blanchett. Are people trying to make me depressed? 

 

I did not know that, interesting.

[giveamanafish...]

I did not know that, interesting.

 

I actually don't think about either Jodi Foster or Cate Blanchett that often. just if I see them in a movie. Wanted to make that clear. Just trying to be funny. Although in their 50s(?) and they both still look great.

[nightscrawl]

I think I get it.... I think the sex issue was the stinger in DA2, the everyone's bisexual playersexual from the perspective of many fans and others gave away the reality, it was the BIG SECRET and now it was out that a lot of Bioware fans, players, gamers, developers were different sexually. The screen of we're just a gaming company evaporated.
 
Well guess what, NO ONE CARES. I must confess, I do not even notice them in the games I play, it is the story of their character in general that captures my interests, whether they are nice, cruel, or anything in between.
 
If you are a cruel person, people will care. If you are a kind person, people will care. People do not care if you are bisexual or homosexual.

Given the very large amount of romance threads on both the DA2 and DAI forums devoted to the issue of sexuality, I can definitely say that there are many people that DO care on both sides of the issue. And given the amount of prejudice, bigotry, and discrimination those folks face in real life, there are a fair amount of people that care there as well.

In my previous post, I wasn't calling you a supporter of real life bigotry btw...



At any rate, back to elves. Fenris is hot.

[Seraphim24]

Given the very large amount of romance threads on both the DA2 and DAI forums devoted to the issue of sexuality, I can definitely say that there are many people that DO care on both sides of the issue. And given the amount of prejudice, bigotry, and discrimination those folks face in real life, there are a fair amount of people that care there as well.

In my previous post, I wasn't calling you a supporter of real life bigotry btw...



At any rate, back to elves. Fenris is hot.

 

Heres the thing though, people everywhere face.. lets just say hatred right? Envy? Anger? That is so common..... everywhere, for lots of reasons.

 

I had a friend in Middle School where we talked like every day because we just weren't like other people, because we just liked each other more than other people like each other I suppose, because it was fun, and that's it, just talking about.. whatever.. liking or disliking the same teachers or whatever. I went to a different HIgh School and that was that.. lost contact. Later someone told me ultimately that personidentified as homosexual.. and it's like what does that mean to me? That person was and is a nice person, it doesn't change how anyone views a person. If I had bad experiences with them, then perhaps I would of remembered them as a vicious person.

 

Er, don't think I ever said anything about you calling me something bad, you seem all right so I guess that's that.

[berelinde]

You got that backwards, did you miss the enemies raining from the sky?

 

You basically dethrone or kill every major NPC/character/leader on your own personal ascendancy. And speaking of supporting abusive systems, you are asked to view Hawke's ascent as one of triumph when Kirkwall's history is of deep hatreds.

 

Dragon Age 2 is essentially just Game of Thrones, and Game of Thrones the primary theme is arguably that murdering everyone works out great.

It's a computer video game. You have to fight someone. Running around plucking flowers and complimenting every NPC about how elfy they are wouldn't be much fun.

[Seraphim24]

 Running around plucking flowers and complimenting every

 

Pacific games are quite popular really and also can be pretty fun, like Harvest Moon.

 

But er Computer game fighting is not really something I notice one way or another in general.

[sniper_arrow]

Heres the thing though, people everywhere face.. lets just say hatred right? Envy? Anger? That is so common..... everywhere, for lots of reasons.

 

I had a friend in Middle School where we talked like every day because we just weren't like other people, because we just liked each other more than other people like each other I suppose, because it was fun, and that's it, just talking about.. whatever.. liking or disliking the same teachers or whatever. I went to a different HIgh School and that was that.. lost contact. Later someone told me ultimately that personidentified as homosexual.. and it's like what does that mean to me? That person was and is a nice person, it doesn't change how anyone views a person. If I had bad experiences with them, then perhaps I would of remembered them as a vicious person.

 

Er, don't think I ever said anything about you calling me something bad, you seem all right so I guess that's that.

 

Honestly, at this point, it's best we go back to the topic right now.

[Seraphim24]

Honestly, at this point, it's best we go back to the topic right now.

 

Well as far as that goes... I somehow managed to post like 6 posts in a row summarizing a bunch of things I noticed.. so I can't say I have much else to add to that.

 

Rest assured though the LGBT issues if I'm going to be discussing them can easily take place elsewhere.

[Gervaise]

The way I see it is the reason so many people on the forums seem to hate elves and do their best to present them in their worst light, demonstrating extreme prejudice as a result, is that it is safe for them to do so.   There are no elves in the real world so the elves are a soft target.      You cannot be accused of anything except bigotry against a fantasy race, so that's okay.    In some ways it gives them the outlet for all their pent up prejudice against real world targets that they feel they are not allowed to express.    A slightly lesser one is the Chantry, which personally I loath but for its portrayal in game, but many seem to attack because they hate religion in the real world.

 

The truth of the matter is that if the Devs have done their job properly in wanting to create a grey issues world rather any one party being in the right or wrong, then there will always be two sides to the argument.   The Dales is a case in point.    I have been exploring the idea over in the lore section that may be not all the elves in the Dales did support the isolationist standpoint but it was the newly established noble class with the backing of the elven god priesthood who gained the ascendancy in the political running of the Dales.  There may have been elves who did worship the Maker; who did want to help against the 2nd Blight; who wanted to work with their neighbours.  When the armies of Orlais marched in, they may have voluntarily surrendered.    The fact is we just don't know from the information we have been given.

 

Also, with regard to the issue of not intervening when the darkspawn attacked Montsimmard.  May be the elves saw it was futile and that it would be better to hold the line to prevent the darkspawn spreading eastwards, which ultimately would have benefited not just the elves.   May be they had their own problems with darkspawn which Orlais didn't know about or denied subsequently.   If this was around the time of Ameridan, then presumably he would have warned them that there was a potentially hostile barbarian force to the south with a dragon at their head that he was going to deal with.   Even if the army did not materialise, without Ameridan returning the fear would still be there.    So there were any number of reasons, apart from simple hatred, why the elves may not have acted.     

 

I would also point out that during the 4th Blight, Tevinter refused to send aid and Orlais only sent a token force because for the most part they weren't directly affected and were able to contain the darkspawn within their own borders, despite the long standing tradition of all nations assisting the Wardens in their battle with the Blight.  Both these nations had far more resources at this time and far greater numbers at their disposal than the elves of the Dales would have had.   Where are the accusations of their treachery?     During that Blight the Grey Wardens essentially abandoned Rivain to its fate early on in the conflict because it wasn't worth the resources trying to save it.    So if the Grey Wardens could make such a decision out of strategic necessity, why couldn't the Dalish elves?    Of course it could be that it was simply the Dalish did not like Orlais, which seems confirmed by Ameridan saying that many of his countrymen thought Orlais no better than the Imperium.   The Dalish have never failed to honour their agreements to the Grey Wardens since then.

 

So again, much of the vitriol vented against the Dalish is based off limited information that we know has been filtered through the eyes of Chantry scholars and Orlesian historians, who had a vested interest in presenting them in a bad light.    Yes, the Dalish can come across as racial prejudiced themselves but given their history, it is hardly surprising.   Also, as has often been emphasised, the clans vary in their attitude and behaviour.  Mahariel's father advocated greater contact with humans and trying to learn from them.   Some condemned him but that is not to say all did.  Lavellan's Keeper refuses to leave Wycome when they have the chance as it would leave the city elves to face the human hostility alone.   Then when the crisis is resolved; she continues to work with both human and city elf leaders on the city council.    Same history, same upbringing, same reverence for the old ways, and even some anti-human hunters in their ranks, but nevertheless when given the chance they are able to work co-operatively with their neighbours.   To condemn all because of the attitudes or crimes of some is to display the same racial bigotry that is present in Thedas itself.

 

One final thought.   The Chantry/Orlais saw fit to remove Shartan and Ameridan from history because of the Dales.   Yet since they were examples of elves who worked with their human neighbours against a common evil and specifically both honoured Andraste, you'd think they would have wanted to hold them up as an example of why the Dalish had so fallen from grace and betrayed their own heroes.   The fact that they instead chose to erase them from the knowledge of even those elves they penned up in alienages, seems to me to suggest that wasn't the only things they covered up for political convenience.

[Seraphim24]

The way I see it is the reason so many people on the forums seem to hate elves and do their best to present them in their worst light, demonstrating extreme prejudice as a result, is that it is safe for them to do so.   There are no elves in the real world so the elves are a soft target.      You cannot be accused of anything except bigotry against a fantasy race, so that's okay.    In some ways it gives them the outlet for all their pent up prejudice against real world targets that they feel they are not allowed to express.    A slightly lesser one is the Chantry, which personally I loath but for its portrayal in game, but many seem to attack because they hate religion in the real world.

 

The truth of the matter is that if the Devs have done their job properly in wanting to create a grey issues world rather any one party being in the right or wrong, then there will always be two sides to the argument.   The Dales is a case in point.    I have been exploring the idea over in the lore section that may be not all the elves in the Dales did support the isolationist standpoint but it was the newly established noble class with the backing of the elven god priesthood who gained the ascendancy in the political running of the Dales.  There may have been elves who did worship the Maker; who did want to help against the 2nd Blight; who wanted to work with their neighbours.  When the armies of Orlais marched in, they may have voluntarily surrendered.    The fact is we just don't know from the information we have been given.

 

Also, with regard to the issue of not intervening when the darkspawn attacked Montsimmard.  May be the elves saw it was futile and that it would be better to hold the line to prevent the darkspawn spreading eastwards, which ultimately would have benefited not just the elves.   May be they had their own problems with darkspawn which Orlais didn't know about or denied subsequently.   If this was around the time of Ameridan, then presumably he would have warned them that there was a potentially hostile barbarian force to the south with a dragon at their head that he was going to deal with.   Even if the army did not materialise, without Ameridan returning the fear would still be there.    So there were any number of reasons, apart from simple hatred, why the elves may not have acted.     

 

I would also point out that during the 4th Blight, Tevinter refused to send aid and Orlais only sent a token force because for the most part they weren't directly affected and were able to contain the darkspawn within their own borders, despite the long standing tradition of all nations assisting the Wardens in their battle with the Blight.  Both these nations had far more resources at this time and far greater numbers at their disposal than the elves of the Dales would have had.   Where are the accusations of their treachery?     During that Blight the Grey Wardens essentially abandoned Rivain to its fate early on in the conflict because it wasn't worth the resources trying to save it.    So if the Grey Wardens could make such a decision out of strategic necessity, why couldn't the Dalish elves?    Of course it could be that it was simply the Dalish did not like Orlais, which seems confirmed by Ameridan saying that many of his countrymen thought Orlais no better than the Imperium.   The Dalish have never failed to honour their agreements to the Grey Wardens since then.

 

So again, much of the vitriol vented against the Dalish is based off limited information that we know has been filtered through the eyes of Chantry scholars and Orlesian historians, who had a vested interest in presenting them in a bad light.    Yes, the Dalish can come across as racial prejudiced themselves but given their history, it is hardly surprising.   Also, as has often been emphasised, the clans vary in their attitude and behaviour.   To condemn all because of the attitudes or crimes of some is to display the same racial bigotry that is present in Thedas itself.

 

One final thought.   The Chantry/Orlais saw fit to remove Shartan and Ameridan from history because of the Dales.   Yet since they were examples of elves who worked with their human neighbours against a common evil and specifically both honoured Andraste, you'd think they would have wanted to hold them up as an example of why the Dalish had so fallen from grace and betrayed their own heroes.   The fact that they instead chose to erase them from the knowledge of even those elves they penned up in alienages, seems to me to suggest that wasn't the only things they covered up for political convenience.

 

The simple truth of the matter is..  that this whole situation in general... does not sit well with me, but I think I'm basically done with this discussion, as well as many others here.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Jedi Master of Orion:  Way late responding to you, but you compared my commentary to the Chantry's fear-mongering of mages.

 

There are legitimate fears concerning mages... there are legitimate fears of humans (there are legitimate fears of all sapient creatures period) - but those legitimate fears are not racism, so why would I reference them?

The Chantry's fear-mongering is ignorant... Dalish blaming all humans and basing their culture off human hate is equally ignorant. 

 

And... to be truthful?  There's nothing legitimizing Zathrian either... yes, he was wronged (actually his loved ones were wronged and he is being typically possessive and thinking only how it affected him... very "common" trait for such a supreme race)... but you can either continue a cycle or end it.  He continued a cycle of vengeance and hate.  Morality doesn't even factor into it.  He promotes future elves being wronged simply by being a part of the cycle.  Someone legitimately wronged can still be ignorant and do ignorant things... and perpetuate a mutual culture of distrust and hatred.