757 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

I think I get it.... I think the sex issue was the stinger in DA2, the everyone's bisexual playersexual from the perspective of many fans and others gave away the reality, it was the BIG SECRET and now it was out that a lot of Bioware fans, players, gamers, developers were different sexually. The screen of we're just a gaming company evaporated.

Well guess what, NO ONE CARES. I must confess, I do not even notice them in the games I play, it is the story of their character in general that captures my interests, whether they are nice, cruel, or anything in between.

If you are a cruel person, people will care. If you are a kind person, people will care. People do not care if you are bisexual or homosexual.

Are you going for some sort of "biggest non sequitur" award? What does this have to do with racism, or elves?

[Lady Artifice]

Claims like "Elves are racist, period," and accusations that the Devs somehow propogate or support racism by depicting it have something in common.

 

They're both completely ridiculous.

 

I can't count how many times I've seen people argue on the BSN over which "side" is more to blame in the conflict between Elves and Humans, and how often those debates involve desperate attempts to fit both races into homogenous boxes, despite how thoroughly and frequently the writers demonstrate that Elves and Humans are individual people who are perfectly capable to defying the fictional stereotypes associated with them.

 

Prejudice is a very common, very human (and in this fictional universe, also elven and dwarven) failing. The characters Bioware designs to be most sympathetic are the most likely to completely avoid racial prejudice. That's all the evidence you need to see that trying to place some kind of relative value on the races they depict is completely futile, because they're written and thoroughly established as individuals.

 

Now if you want to talk about how xenophobic Dalish culture tends to be, or how much Human society is built around institutional segregation, we might actually be able to approach something resembling coherent discussion.

[Nimlowyn]

Claims like "Elves are racist, period," and accusations that the Devs somehow propogate or support racism by depicting it have something in common.

 

They're both completely ridiculous.

 

I can't count how many times I've seen people argue on the BSN over which "side" is more to blame in the conflict between Elves and Humans, and how often those debates involve desperate attempts to fit both races into homogenous boxes, despite how thoroughly and frequently the writers demonstrate that Elves and Humans are individual people who are perfectly capable to defying the fictional stereotypes associated with them.

 

Prejudice is a very common, very human (and in this fictional universe, also elven and dwarven) failing. The characters Bioware designs to be most sympathetic are the most likely to completely avoid racial prejudice. That's all the evidence you need to see that trying to place some kind of relative value on the races they depict is completely futile, because they're written and thoroughly established as individuals.

 

Now if you want to talk about how xenophobic Dalish culture tends to be, or how much Human society is built around institutional segregation, we might actually be able to approach something resembling coherent discussion.

Truth. Matthew Goldman wrote in The Art of Dragon Age Inquisition that "Dragon Age is at its heart a cautionary tale about the weakness of people." Human, elf, dwarf, and qunari, ALL are people. Only when we ALL genuinely seek common ground and forgive can we dream of peace and justice. Then we can tackle the entanglements like territory and resources, get into a few wars probably, but every gesture toward peace and justice is important, however small it might seem. A ripple can become a wave. 

 

Life in Thedas holds up a mirror to life on Earth. The factions we see on the boards mirrors how real world factions clash in our world, from town halls to battle fields. The same rhetoric and justifications are used whether we're talking about fictional peoples or real ones. This is why art is important. This is why oppression is depicted. We are figuring out how things are, how we want things to be. I see the will to endure in the people of Thedas, to make a better world, in the face of so much suffering and failure, and I am inspired. I love that I get to write my own character and put them in this world, I love that I can interact with this narrative. It contextualizes my own human experience. 

 

If you want to be productive, if you are truly interested in peace and justice, let's dismantle systems of oppression and xenophobia, not people, based on where they were born, what their ears look like, whether or not they have horns, etc. 

[In Exile]

Claims like "Elves are racist, period," and accusations that the Devs somehow propogate or support racism by depicting it have something in common.

They're both completely ridiculous.

I can't count how many times I've seen people argue on the BSN over which "side" is more to blame in the conflict between Elves and Humans, and how often those debates involve desperate attempts to fit both races into homogenous boxes, despite how thoroughly and frequently the writers demonstrate that Elves and Humans are individual people who are perfectly capable to defying the fictional stereotypes associated with them.

Prejudice is a very common, very human (and in this fictional universe, also elven and dwarven) failing. The characters Bioware designs to be most sympathetic are the most likely to completely avoid racial prejudice. That's all the evidence you need to see that trying to place some kind of relative value on the races they depict is completely futile, because they're written and thoroughly established as individuals.

Now if you want to talk about how xenophobic Dalish culture tends to be, or how much Human society is built around institutional segregation, we might actually be able to approach something resembling coherent discussion.

What's interesting regarding how it appears that there is no intraspecies xenophobia. I suppose the closet we get to it is the Qunari and their homogeneous culture vs. all non-Qunari who they notionally don't even consider people.

There's no Avaar specific prejudice, for example, despite the huge cultural differences (and indeed what would amount to demon worship in the eyes of the Chantry). And yet you do see a very clear and hardline view of racial essentialism when it comes to elves/dwarves/qunari/humans. The only society that seems not to adopt this view is the Qunari, except for how they may well use viddithari.

[Evamitchelle]

What's interesting regarding how it appears that there is no intraspecies xenophobia. I suppose the closet we get to it is the Qunari and their homogeneous culture vs. all non-Qunari who they notionally don't even consider people.

There's no Avaar specific prejudice, for example, despite the huge cultural differences (and indeed what would amount to demon worship in the eyes of the Chantry). And yet you do see a very clear and hardline view of racial essentialism when it comes to elves/dwarves/qunari/humans. The only society that seems not to adopt this view is the Qunari, except for how they may well use viddithari.

 

The Fereldan refugees in Kirkwall? Ferelden-Orlais? Everyone from Tevinter? I'd say there's plenty of intra-human xenophobia. 

[ModernAcademic]

The Fereldan refugees in Kirkwall? Ferelden-Orlais? Everyone from Tevinter? I'd say there's plenty of intra-human xenophobia. 

 

The guys that think everything boils down to humans versus elves must think humans in Thedas are a united people who just love each other. They forget Orlesians abused and tortured Fereldans for years (Stolen Throne). And that's just recent Thedosian History.

 

I won't even comment thousands of years of slavery in Tevinter. They must think only elves are enslaved in the Imperium. 

[In Exile]

The Fereldan refugees in Kirkwall? Ferelden-Orlais? Everyone from Tevinter? I'd say there's plenty of intra-human xenophobia.

Im not sure. Ferelden Orlais have grievances, but that's akin to France England back in the day. Not quite xenophobia in the way someone would talk about re:the CEs. So in the sense of racism.

The closest think would be the Fereldens in Kirkwall.

[Evamitchelle]

Im not sure. Ferelden Orlais have grievances, but that's akin to France England back in the day. Not quite xenophobia in the way someone would talk about re:the CEs. So in the sense of racism.

The closest think would be the Fereldens in Kirkwall.

Racism and xenophobia don't necessarily go together. Humans believe themselves to be all one race, so there's no racial component to their xenophobia towards other humans. I'm not sure what your point is. And about intra-species xenophobia in general, wouldn't the Orzammar/surface dwarf divide qualify as well?

[In Exile]

Racism and xenophobia don't necessarily go together. Humans believe themselves to be all one race, so there's no racial component to their xenophobia towards other humans. I'm not sure what your point is. And about intra-species xenophobia in general, wouldn't the Orzammar/surface dwarf divide qualify as well?

 

You're right - I mixed meanings, and used the entirely wrong word. What I mean to say is that it's incredibly peculiar that humans do think of themselves as one race, and you don't have anything like IRL racism. Not to say that DA should start suddenly having discrimination based on skin colour. But the post-racial (in the IRL sense) society that we have in Thedas doesn't make sense given how endemic every other type of prejudice they have there. 

 

Just look at 18th-19th century beliefs about race (and see e.g. references to non-whites like... the Irish or the Italians). 

[Seraphim24]

Now, the main thing, I didn't understand at all (among the many things I don't understand in general) was the Alienage AND as a player you don't really do or say anything about it and it kind of just slides by, your own actions felt insufficiently distinguished from that treatment and situation in general.

 

I can't understand that, why it exists, who supports it, in general, I didn't... there's just nothing to explain this other than a bunch of people (obviously, it can be anyone, but it seemed to be pretty much entirely humans in the game so referred to them as such) singularly or together, are ok just hurting and hating other people (which again, in the context of the Alienage, is all Elves essentially) for no reason

Hatreds can come from anywhere, but in Dragon Age it is clearly stated, referred to, in the codices, with people interactions, that I quote "humans treated Elves in Alienages as such and such"

 

From my perspective, if the Alienage simply existed, a walled off secluded area where people or even living things of any kind(Humans, Fereldans, Orlesians, Elves, whatever) are treated badly and kind of abused and neglected, whether for arbitrary reasons or no reasons, it would still be equally bad.  In fact, Denerim as a whole is just kind of an ugly city in many ways....

 

Or even unliving things, can't rocks feel? Maybe, I don't know, I'm not a geologist, maybe so. Maybe just if anything bad at all of any kind was going on beyond there for no good reason.

 

But of course, Is the Alienage any worse than I don't know those crazy blood mages you fight in Denerim that are just kind of chaotic evil, or the Darkspawn taking people and killing, because the abuse is directed against Elves or something?

 

No, of course not.

 

The proximity between these hatreds and the player's personal quest seemed off.

 

But look, I can't remember every single detail in Dragon Age, if there are similar proximities, regardless of who they involve, they would be equally wrong.

 

I suspect the Elves jumped out because unlike the Circle Quests or Dwarven quests or Forest quests, the Elves are also included as part of Denerim in strange unique exception, it's even a major Origin story.

 

But take those crazy blood mages that you take on later in the game when you are wandering around Denerim, you fight them, you don't ever really ever confront them, as stated, it's just sort of off.

 

It's not that the Alienage as pertains to Elves as pertains to Humans as to anything, just... the Alienage in general.

 

I played an Elf because they had a higher bonus to magic than Humans and I wanted to make a mage, that's it. Considering how valuable walking and virulent bomb are early on in the game, I'd say it was a wise decision...

[In Exile]

You have some required reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto. That's why an Alienage exists. 

[Seraphim24]

You have some required reading: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghetto. That's why an Alienage exists. 

 

Obviously the ghettos existed in many times, including most recently and notably (well, as far as my standardized American education attests) was with the Nazis and WW2, and it's terrible.

 

I would personally rather avoid the RL comparisons and historical referencing, if you don't mind, personally, I think they would have massive derail and explosion potential. I can't deny I've been reading recently lots of history myself about all kinds of things myself, primarily due to an equal dissatisfaction with conventionally accepted truths and alternatively promoted truths.

 

In fact, I think it's kind of stupid that the boards tend to prohibit political discussion.

 

But please, if you all would like to go in that direction, feel free. You would have my (perhaps measley and meaningless) support to discuss those things, maybe I'll even be watching.

[In Exile]

Obviously the ghettos existed in many times, including most recently and notably (well, as far as my standardized American education attests) was with the Nazis and WW2, and it's terrible.

 

I would personally rather avoid the RL comparisons and historical referencing, if you don't mind, personally, I think they would have massive derail and explosion potential. I can't deny I've been reading lots of history myself about all kinds of things myself.

 

But please, if you all would like to go in that direction, feel free.

 

You said:

 

I can't understand that, why it exists, who supports it, in general, I didn't... there's just nothing to explain this other than a bunch of people (obviously, it can be anyone, but it seemed to be pretty much entirely humans in the game so referred to them as such) singularly or together, are ok just hurting and hating other people (which again, in the context of the Alienage, is all Elves essentially) for no reason

 

That's not wrong, per se, but it very clearly is enough for it to exist. Because it did exist. And it does exist. IRL. People are pretty OK with mistreating people they've declared as different. We see it in every facet of life. We see it in schools when kids get bullied (or in the workplace). We see it in political discourse. 

 

There's no mystery to it. It's just the lamentable truth of our existence. So there is a reason: there's a difference, and people decided it was a relevant one. 

[Seraphim24]

There's no mystery to it. It's just the lamentable truth of our existence. So there is a reason: there's a difference, and people decided it was a relevant one. 

 

It is a lamentable truth of an existence, not the only truth of our existence.

[Evamitchelle]

You're right - I mixed meanings, and used the entirely wrong word. What I mean to say is that it's incredibly peculiar that humans do think of themselves as one race, and you don't have anything like IRL racism. Not to say that DA should start suddenly having discrimination based on skin colour. But the post-racial (in the IRL sense) society that we have in Thedas doesn't make sense given how endemic every other type of prejudice they have there.

Just look at 18th-19th century beliefs about race (and see e.g. references to non-whites like... the Irish or the Italians).

There's actually a few mentions of colorism (In the novels and in one banter between Cole and Vivienne), but it could just be an overlook on the part of the writers.

[Reznore57]

The Chantry asked every human countries to give a place to elven refugees after the elves lost the Dales , that's how the alienages started.

I don't even think it was a bad idea , the elves had no homeland anymore or they needed places to go and about keeping them apart from humans , well the war between humans and elves just ended ,so tension must have been quite high.

 

Of course the Chantry's help stopped there , and things didn't get better for elves.

But as far as I know there is no law actually forcing elves to live in alienages.Most of them don't leave because they are victims of hate crimes outside the walls, or they probably don't have the coins .

[In Exile]

The Chantry asked every human countries to give a place to elven refugees after the elves lost the Dales , that's how the alienages started.

I don't even think it was a bad idea , the elves had no homeland anymore or they needed places to go and about keeping them apart from humans , well the war between humans and elves just ended ,so tension must have been quite high.

 

Of course the Chantry's help stopped there , and things didn't get better for elves.

But as far as I know there is no law actually forcing elves to live in alienages.Most of them don't leave because they are victims of hate crimes outside the walls, or they probably don't have the coins .

 

Do you happen to recall what Codex entry explains this one?

[Reznore57]

Do you happen to recall what Codex entry explains this one?

 

The Chantry more or less creating alienages?:

http://dragonage.wik..._The_City_Elves

The text :(From the Chantry point of view so it's a bit err.. )

Spoiler

When the holy Exalted March of the Dales resulted in the dissolution of the elven kingdom, leaving a great many elves homeless once again, the Divine Renata I declared that all lands loyal to the Chantry must give the elves refuge within their own walls. Considering the atrocities committed by the elves at Red Crossing, this was a great testament to the Chantry's charity. There was one condition, however--the elves were to lay aside their pagan gods and live under the rule of the Chantry.

Some of the elves refused our goodwill. They banded together to form the wandering Dalish elves, keeping their old elven ways--and their hatred of humans--alive. To this day, Dalish elves still terrorize those of us who stray too close to their camps. Most of the elves, however, saw that it was wisest to live under the protection of humans.

And so we took the elves into our cities and tried to integrate them. We invited them into our own homes and gave them jobs as servants and farmhands. Here, in Denerim, the elves even have their own quarter, governed by an elven keeper. Most have proven to be productive members of society. Still, a small segment of the elven community remains dissatisfied. These troublemakers and malcontents roam the streets causing mayhem, rebelling against authority and making a general nuisance of themselves.

--From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar

 

[ModernAcademic]

The Chantry more or less creating alienages?:

http://dragonage.wik..._The_City_Elves

The text :(From the Chantry point of view so it's a bit err.. )

Considering the atrocities committed by the elves at Red Crossing, this was a great testament to the Chantry's charity. There was one condition, however--the elves were to lay aside their pagan gods and live under the rule of the Chantry.

 

The Chantry, forever trying to gather more believers, no matter by what means... /sigh

[In Exile]

The Chantry more or less creating alienages?:

http://dragonage.wik..._The_City_Elves

The text :(From the Chantry point of view so it's a bit err.. )

Spoiler

When the holy Exalted March of the Dales resulted in the dissolution of the elven kingdom, leaving a great many elves homeless once again, the Divine Renata I declared that all lands loyal to the Chantry must give the elves refuge within their own walls. Considering the atrocities committed by the elves at Red Crossing, this was a great testament to the Chantry's charity. There was one condition, however--the elves were to lay aside their pagan gods and live under the rule of the Chantry.

Some of the elves refused our goodwill. They banded together to form the wandering Dalish elves, keeping their old elven ways--and their hatred of humans--alive. To this day, Dalish elves still terrorize those of us who stray too close to their camps. Most of the elves, however, saw that it was wisest to live under the protection of humans.

And so we took the elves into our cities and tried to integrate them. We invited them into our own homes and gave them jobs as servants and farmhands. Here, in Denerim, the elves even have their own quarter, governed by an elven keeper. Most have proven to be productive members of society. Still, a small segment of the elven community remains dissatisfied. These troublemakers and malcontents roam the streets causing mayhem, rebelling against authority and making a general nuisance of themselves.

--From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar

 

 

Thanks. Unfortunately, the propaganda like nature of it makes it hard to guess at what really happened once the Dales (presumably) surrendered unconditionally to Orlais. It's actually quite strange. A country doesn't just vanish like the way the Dales did. You'd have to imagine there were holdouts. 

[AlanC9]

Racism and xenophobia don't necessarily go together. Humans believe themselves to be all one race, so there's no racial component to their xenophobia towards other humans.

Meaning that the nonhuman races use up the conceptual space that otherwise might have been used to differentiate between different races of humans? (That's a bit of fanwankery, of course.)

[nightscrawl]

I believe he was designed intentionally to draw people into avoiding his deep sympathetic history and pre-judging him as a a sociopath or something, but it seems to me they bungled that entirely because if you don't prejudge him and go all the way to discover his "deep tragic past" it is actually a "malicious twisted past." Someone who kills a group of people, even just out of a moment of extreme duress and stress, regardless of whatever else is going on, is still a pretty bad person.

The whole point of the Sten character was as an introduction to the Qun and that rigid mindset.

I also decided that Loghain early on was spot-on and arguably the protagonist of Dragon Age up until you arrive at Loathering, the battle at Ostagar was lost and Cailan was a fool, he was preserving a chance at total victory. I couldn't say for his later actions because I don't remember them in exact detail, but I actually found it odd you couldn't be more sympathetic to his position. I think he really did blame the Grey Wardens, an order exclusively invested in protecting against the blight, not necessarily protecting Fereldan, that captured Cailan's imagination and made him indifferent the value of Fereldan soldiers.

There are a lot of people who like Loghain for various reasons. That said, if you don't recall this tidbit, then you should know that he allows Tevinter slavers to go into the Denerim alienage to take the elves there off into slavery.

[Seraphim24]

There are a lot of people who like Loghain for various reasons. That said, if you don't recall this tidbit, then you should know that he allows Tevinter slavers to go into the Denerim alienage to take the elves there off into slavery.

 

Which is why I said early on and up to and including just getting to Loathering, and expressly declaimed anything after that as falling under "don't remember the exact details" specifically because I vaguely remembered something really bad going on later, but "didn't remember the exact details."

 

And with that bit incorporated well, yeah, Loghain is ultimately a terrible character, the end (and again, regardless of the fact that it was Elves sold off, could of been anyone, humans, whatever)

[nightscrawl]

There's actually a few mentions of colorism (In the novels and in one banter between Cole and Vivienne), but it could just be an overlook on the part of the writers.

Cole: Stepping into the parlor, hem of my gown snagged, no, adjust before I go in, must look perfect.
Vivienne: My dear, your pet is speaking again. Do silence it.
Cole: Voices inside. Marquis Alphonse.
Cole: "I do hope Duke Bastien puts out the lights before he touches her. But then, she must disappear in the dark."
Cole: Gown tight between my fingers, cold all over. Unacceptable. Wheels turn, strings pull.
Cole: He hurt you. You left a letter, let out a lie so he would do something foolish against the Inquisition. A trap.
Vivienne: Inquisitor, as your demon lacks manners, perhaps you could get Solas to train it.

I doubt this is an overlook mainly for the reason that the banter is about her experience with the Game (note that she gets her revenge) and is meant to be one of those revealing character things that only Cole can tell us.

It's a really good banter in terms of characterization, but god... that is just such an awful thing to say. Truly cringe worthy.

[In Exile]

There are a lot of people who like Loghain for various reasons. That said, if you don't recall this tidbit, then you should know that he allows Tevinter slavers to go into the Denerim alienage to take the elves there off into slavery.

 

The thing that makes it even worse is the incredibly stupid justification offered for it. Not only is it completely evil, but he's not even doing it for a coherent reason.