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[ModernAcademic]

In a loose comparison, Arlathan is like Babylon and Tevinter is the Roman Empire.

 

One civilization inspired the values and traditions of the other. Hence all the depravity of the ancient elves was eventually passed on to the Magisters.

[Bad King]

Yeah, but Solas created the Veil to to stop the Evanuris.  

 

The psycho Evanuris are ultimately responsible for everything that happened to the modern day elves.

 

Yeah, Tevinter enslaved them, but the elves only became weak enough to be enslaved because of the depravity and infighting of their own leaders. 

 

Yes, but Tevinter still chose to enslave them (hundreds of years after the Evanuris) and so the ultimate blame must be placed at their feet. To place a larger or equal share of the blame at the feet of elven leaders hundreds of years earlier is a denial of Tevinter atrocities and the atrocities of any group since that has oppressed elves. It makes little sense for example to claim that the Evanuris were also responsible for Vaughan's gang rape in Origins!

[ModernAcademic]

Yes, but Tevinter still chose to enslave them (hundreds of years after the Evanuris) and so the ultimate blame must be placed at their feet. To place a larger or equal share of the blame at the feet of elven leaders hundreds of years earlier is a denial of Tevinter atrocities and the atrocities of any group since that has oppressed elves. It makes little sense for example to claim that the Evanuris were also responsible for Vaughan's gang rape in Origins!

 

Wrong, because slavery was a common practice in Thedas by then.

 

The reason why there were so many elves enslaved byTevinter is not because "humans naturally mistreat elves". It's because the fall of Arlathan led to a surplus of elven population who was vulnerable and suscetible to be preyed upon by other civilizations.

 

Hence Tevinter enslaved them, as it does pretty much with every people it conquers.

 

This process is no doubt inspired by labor conditions in Antiquity. There were no contracts between masters and workers. There was no servitude before Feudalism. You were either master or slave. The Empires of Arlathan and Tevinter are a fictional version of this period in our History.

 

Make no mistake. If the Qunari fail to conquer the Imperium, it will enslave them as well. To Orlais and Ferelden, nations who came to be long after Tevinter began its process of decadence, slavery is horrendous. But to the Imperium, it's still a normal practice. 

 

Proof of that is that Alexius tries to enslave the Rebel Mages lead by Fiona using a perverse system of debt, in which the mages owe their safety and survival to the Magister and are thus submitted to indentured servitude to him for ten years.

 

Such system still exists in rural areas of the Third World and is (sadly) also a common practice, leading to periods of mass migration by desperate countryfolk to urban areas. In fiction, that's probably what Fenris did, and many other slaves from Tevinter, elven or not elven.

[Bad King]

Wrong, because slavery was a common practice in Thedas by then.

 

The reason why there were so many elves enslaved byTevinter is not because "humans naturally mistreat elves". It's because the fall of Arlathan led to a surplus of elven population who was vulnerable and suscetible to be preyed upon by other civilizations.

 

Hence Tevinter enslaved them, as it does pretty much with every people it conquers.

 

This process is no doubt inspired by labor conditions in Antiquity. There were no contracts between masters and workers. There was no servitude before Feudalism. You were either master or slave. The Empires of Arlathan and Tevinter are a fictional version of this period in our History.

 

Make no mistake. If the Qunari fail to conquer the Imperium, it will enslave them as well. To Orlais and Ferelden, nations who came to be long after Tevinter began its process of decadence, slavery is horrendous. But to the Imperium, it's still a normal practice. 

 

Proof of that is that Alexius tries to enslave the Rebel Mages lead by Fiona using a perverse system of debt, in which the mages owe their safety and survival to the Magister and are thus submitted to indentured servitude to him for ten years.

 

Such system still exists in rural areas of the Third World and is (sadly) also a common practice, leading to periods of mass migration by desperate countryfolk to urban areas. In fiction, that's probably what Fenris did, and many other slaves from Tevinter, elven or not elven.

 

Slavery has existed in many forms amongst societies throughout time, including those of the ancient world, but the type of slavery wielded by the Tevinter Empire with the elves of Arlathan was a form of chattel slavery - the kind most open to abuse, as seen during the Trans-Atlantic slave trade. Your argument ignores the role of the ideology and agency of Tevinter leaders in driving them to mass-enslave an entire population. The Tevinter elite has long had a culture of ultra-competitiveness coupled with a lust for power: it's why their upper echelons are so corrupted by excessive blood magic. Far from being down to economic determinism, expansionism and mass-enslavement of elves as well as other humans appears to have been a means to fuel the desire for excessive wealth and power by the Tevinters.

[sandalisthemaker]

Yes, but Tevinter still chose to enslave them (hundreds of years after the Evanuris) and so the ultimate blame must be placed at their feet. To place a larger or equal share of the blame at the feet of elven leaders hundreds of years earlier is a denial of Tevinter atrocities and the atrocities of any group since that has oppressed elves. It makes little sense for example to claim that the Evanuris were also responsible for Vaughan's gang rape in Origins!

 

Oh, I don't think that Tevinter is completely blameless. It's just that enslaving one's conquered enemies is really not all that uncommon a practice.  Not that I support it, mind you. 

 

I personally just blame the Evanuris for starting a terrible chain reaction that affected the entire world in many different ways.  They were pretty awful people.

 

Elves being enslaved and downtrodden adds to the world IMO.  It makes Thedas interesting. Would I like to see things improve for the elves? Yeah.  But to me, an interesting story is more important than 'Humans are evil!' 'Free the elves!'  'Free the mages!' Etc.    If sweeping changes are to come, I'd like them to occur in ways that make sense, don't feel like a cop-out / deus ex machina / forced / too good to be true/ type of thing.  ( for example, that is what the wrap up to the mage/templar war and the Divine Leliana ending feels like to me).

 

And if no change ultimately occurs, and the elves remain downtrodden/enslaved, then so be it. As I said, it's an interesting part of the lore for me. 

[Bad King]

Oh, I don't think that Tevinter is completely blameless. It's just that enslaving one's conquered enemies is really not all that uncommon a practice.  Not that I support it, mind you. 

 

I personally just blame the Evanuris for starting a terrible chain reaction that affected the entire world in many different ways.  They were pretty awful people.

 

Elves being enslaved and downtrodden adds to the world IMO.  It makes Thedas interesting. Would I like to see things improve for the elves? Yeah.  But to me, an interesting story is more important than 'Humans are evil!' 'Free the elves!'  'Free the mages!' Etc.    If sweeping changes are to come, I'd like them to occur in ways that make sense, don't feel like a cop-out / deus ex machina / forced / too good to be true/ type of thing.  ( for example, that is what the wrap up to the mage/templar war and the Divine Leliana ending feels like to me).

 

And if no change ultimately occurs, and the elves remain downtrodden/enslaved, then so be it. As I said, it's an interesting part of the lore for me. 

 

Not all that uncommon? The enslavement of an entire race (in the form of chattel slavery) only appears to have happened once in DA lore, and that's the enslavement of the elves by the Tevinter Empire. You can pick and choose any event before that that inadvertently contributed to the (relatively) poor condition of elven society at the time, but at the end of the day, elven slavery can only be blamed on the intentional mass enslavement of the elves by the Tevinter Empire. The murderer is ultimately the one to blame and not the chance events and coincidences that led to the murder.

[sandalisthemaker]

Not all that uncommon? The enslavement of an entire race (in the form of chattel slavery) only appears to have happened once in DA lore, and that's the enslavement of the elves by the Tevinter Empire. 

 

What I meant was that it isn't an uncommon concept/practice IRL.  Although the elves did enslave their own race back in the day. 

[AlanC9]

The murderer is ultimately the one to blame and not the chance events and coincidences that led to the murder.

Blame, sure; that's a moral concept. But when we're just talking about cause and effect, you gotta cut the elves in for a big share of the responsibility.

[ModernAcademic]

Not all that uncommon? The enslavement of an entire race (in the form of chattel slavery) only appears to have happened once in DA lore, and that's the enslavement of the elves by the Tevinter Empire. 

 

Wrong. It happened twice. First, in Arlathan. The lore states the Evanuris enslaved their own kind.

 

I consider this ten times worse than slavery in the Imperium.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Not all elves in the Elvhenan were slaves. In Ancient Tevinter, they were.

[Roamingmachine]

Wrong. It happened twice. First, in Arlathan. The lore states the Evanuris enslaved their own kind.

 

I consider this ten times worse than slavery in the Imperium.

 

...Youre seriously equating the old elven gods, beings who could create life and shape the world, with the masses of Arlathan? The only thing they really had in common with regular elves was common point of origin in the distant past by the time of Sola's tantrum. A dragon has no kinship with a lizard even if they are technically related. Also, the entire slavery business in Arlathan isn't as cut and dry as you make it out to be, as Solas liked to include spirits in the slave category (understandably, him being who he is). Not saying that that nobility (not the Evanuris really, because to beings that powerful slavery is an empty concept. You serve one of them, period.) didn't have regular elven slaves but i dispute the magnitude of the practise. And before you throw Sola's comment about the vallaslin at me, let me remind you about the priests at the Well of Sorrows. Truth isn't simple.

 

Also you really shouldn't take things said by the god of deceit, dissension and rebellion at face value.

[In Exile]

Not all elves in the Elvhenan were slaves. In Ancient Tevinter, they were.

 

I'm not sure how that makes the old elves better. We know, from Solas, that even their seemingly noble figures were ultimately supremacists. Abelas is another example. We don't know how exposed they were to other races. The elves obviously had it better when they were the ubermensch, but that's not exactly a moral argument for them. 

[Bad King]

Wrong. It happened twice. First, in Arlathan. The lore states the Evanuris enslaved their own kind.

 

I consider this ten times worse than slavery in the Imperium.

 

False. The enslavement of an entire race has only ever been done by the Tevinter Imperium. What you mention in your post is the enslavement of one sector of the elven population by the Evanuris (which I strongly condemn), but the Tevinters also enslaved their own kind. It's interesting that you explain Tevinter mass-slavery using an economic determinist argument but then in contrast make a strong moral condemnation against slavery in Arlathan - seems somewhat inconsistent to me.

[In Exile]

False. The enslavement of an entire race has only ever been done by the Tevinter Imperium. What you mention in your post is the enslavement of one sector of the elven population by the Evanuris (which I strongly condemn), but the Tevinters also enslaved their own kind. It's interesting that you explain Tevinter mass-slavery using an economic determinist argument but then in contrast make a strong moral condemnation against slavery in Arlathan - seems somewhat inconsistent to me.

 

We have absolutely no idea what the Evanuris did that was so monstrous. We hear stories of massacres, genocides - in fact, rampant and repeated genocides of lab created life. It's a bit pointless to say that enslaving your own "race" - as if this was in any sense of the word a meaningful construct - versus enslaving a sub-group. Do you think what IRL slavery is made less immoral because we're all human? 

[Illegitimus]

Wrong. It happened twice. First, in Arlathan. The lore states the Evanuris enslaved their own kind.

 

No they didn't.  They ruled of course, and their empire did have slaves but not all of of the elves wore the vallaslin.  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm not sure how that makes the old elves better. We know, from Solas, that even their seemingly noble figures were ultimately supremacists. Abelas is another example. We don't know how exposed they were to other races. The elves obviously had it better when they were the ubermensch, but that's not exactly a moral argument for them. 

 

Turning some people into slaves is bad. Turning all of them into slaves is worse. That's really the only point I was making.

[In Exile]

Turning some people into slaves is bad. Turning all of them into slaves is worse. That's really the only point I was making.

 

But Tevinter didn't turn "all people" into slaves, unless you buy into distinctive and categorical distinctions based on "race" in the fantasy sense. 

 

The comparison doesn't work unless you buy into the distinction that these sub-categories have moral worth, which is patently ridiculous. 

[Medhia_Nox]

We actually have no idea how many among the ancient elven population were slaves. 

 

It could be that all the elves except for the Evanuris were slaves. 

 

It's not like these elves (the evanuris) couldn't perform insane magical feats to wipe out entire populations. 

 

Have we seen a single ancient non-evanuris elf without them?  Abelas has them - and he doesn't seem at all phased by them or his status as a slave.  In fact, he still serves in what must have been his capacity as a slave.

[In Exile]

We actually have no idea how many among the ancient elven population were slaves. 

 

It could be that all the elves except for the Evanuris were slaves. 

 

It's not like these elves (the evanuris) couldn't perform insane magical feats to wipe out entire populations. 

 

Have we seen a single ancient non-evanuris elf without them?  Abelas has them - and he doesn't seem at all phased by them or his status as a slave.  In fact, he still serves in what must have been his capacity as a slave.

 

We know Solas removed them. We don't know what Solas was, originally. For all we know, he removed his own. 

[Illegitimus]

But Tevinter didn't turn "all people" into slaves, unless you buy into distinctive and categorical distinctions based on "race" in the fantasy sense. 

 

The comparison doesn't work unless you buy into the distinction that these sub-categories have moral worth, which is patently ridiculous. 

 

Actually setting things so everyone with pointy ears is a slave DOES preclude earning or stealing freedom.  You're not just a slave.  You're a slave with no hope of anything else.  

[Bad King]

We have absolutely no idea what the Evanuris did that was so monstrous. We hear stories of massacres, genocides - in fact, rampant and repeated genocides of lab created life. It's a bit pointless to say that enslaving your own "race" - as if this was in any sense of the word a meaningful construct - versus enslaving a sub-group. Do you think what IRL slavery is made less immoral because we're all human? 

 

You misunderstand my point. When Tevinter enslaved the elves, they destroyed an entire culture - entire histories, ways of life, ways of thinking all largely lost due to the greed of an Empire. And this has happened in real history too in which entire cultures and ethnic groups were destroyed due to greed and racism. That to me is worse than elven or Tevinter elites having slaves from their own populations. Not to mention that the sheer scale of it would have been staggering.

 

It's true that we have absolutely no idea about the elven gods or ancient elven society: what we know comes from a few ambiguous scraps of evidence and the testimony of a guilt laden ancient elf. So why insist that they're far worse than Tevinter when we have almost nothing to go on?

 

Also what do you mean by these repeated genocides? Ghilan'nain wiping out animal species?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

We actually have no idea how many among the ancient elven population were slaves. 

 

It could be that all the elves except for the Evanuris were slaves. 

 

It's not like these elves (the evanuris) couldn't perform insane magical feats to wipe out entire populations. 

 

Have we seen a single ancient non-evanuris elf without them?  Abelas has them - and he doesn't seem at all phased by them or his status as a slave.  In fact, he still serves in what must have been his capacity as a slave.

 

The Fade Library in Trespasser shows examples of elves that weren't slaves, and Felessan mentions that there were nobles and all types of social classes in the Elvhenan.

 

 

We know Solas removed them. We don't know what Solas was, originally. For all we know, he removed his own. 

 

How could he be a slave and a god-king?

[TK514]

 

How could he be a slave and a god-king?

 

 

Does he ever claim to be a God-King?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Elven Ruins in Trespasser say "Fen'Harel has been falsely named a god" and the Deep Roads section features a former Dalish Elf Qunari discovering lore that shows that Fen'Harel and Mythal were allies. And the very fact that he has the abilities that he does and that ancient history records him as someone that challenges their power, suggests he's a type of being that is on par with the Evanuris.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Jedi Master of Orion:  Do you mean codex entries somewhere?  Cause I don't remember any elves in the library. 

 

If it's codex entries... let's look at what "slave" means in ancient Elvhenan.

 

Cause... again, abelas is a "slave".  He has the markings right on his face... and yet, his duty was evidently one of extreme position.

 

I'm think "slave" to the ancient elves was simply subservient to one of their ancient masters or another - and I think it is quite possible that all non-evanuris elves (I think the Evanuris were spirits, but that's not this topic) were slaves to one of the evanuris. 

 

Fen'Harel was like both the Evanuris and the Forgotten Ones... so, it's likely he wouldn't have been playing the vallaslin game.  And, of course, I think he's misrepresenting himself.  I think he wanted to defeat the Evanuris... SO, he used the ancient elven "slavery" as a platform for his conquest.  When it backfired... he created the Veil in one last ditch effort... and screwed everything up for the elves.