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[In Exile]

The Elven Ruins in Trespasser say "Fen'Harel has been falsely named a god" and the Deep Roads section features a former Dalish Elf Qunari discovering lore that shows that Fen'Harel and Mythal were allies. And the very fact that he has the abilities that he does and that ancient history records him as someone that challenges their power, suggests he's a type of being that is on par with the Evanuris.

 

You misunderstand. There's no proof that the Evanuris are something other than elves, and we know a regular elvhen became a god some unspecified time after the Evanuris were openly recognized as gods. Solas could well have had his origin as a regular elf or worse - a slave, in that sense - and over time, and on account of his rebellion, risen to be regarded as a god. All he needs are power and followers. And he had the former when he acquired the latter. 

 

The way Solas talks about the Evanuris - especially about their past - when his identity is known in Trespasser does not read to me as if he's talking about his contemporaries. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That sounded, to me, like exactly what Solas was doing. How could know the history of then Evanuris if he wasn't there to see it first hand?

[Illegitimus]

That sounded, to me, like exactly what Solas was doing. How could know the history of then Evanuris if he wasn't there to see it first hand?

 

He was close to Mythal and she was there.  Also he is not entirely honest.

 

The thing is, what he calls slaves is what normal people would call "worshippers".  Clearly the Evanuris were not in fact buying and selling their subjects.  If they were, the elves wouldn't be marked for life.  The vast majority of them would have no actual dealings with the Evanuris apart from the normal interaction with with one's rulers.  Which is to say, "there are laws and you are expected to obey them".  

[TK514]

The Elven Ruins in Trespasser say "Fen'Harel has been falsely named a god" and the Deep Roads section features a former Dalish Elf Qunari discovering lore that shows that Fen'Harel and Mythal were allies. And the very fact that he has the abilities that he does and that ancient history records him as someone that challenges their power, suggests he's a type of being that is on par with the Evanuris.

 

So he never claimed to be one, and we have nothing beyond supposition that suggests he was?  I'm not saying he's not powerful, because he obviously is.  I'm simply saying we have no idea of what an immortal magical being is capable of if given time and motivation.  He could have been a peer of Mythal, or he could have been a trusted lieutenant that went rogue after her murder.  It's entirely possible that his magic 8 ball is what gave him the power to compete at Evanuris levels, which is why he needed to partake of Mythal in order to replace it.

 

The sad fact is that, for all we know of Solas, we really know very little, and we know even less about his ancient enemies.

[VorexRyder]

Yes, but Tevinter still chose to enslave them (hundreds of years after the Evanuris) and so the ultimate blame must be placed at their feet. To place a larger or equal share of the blame at the feet of elven leaders hundreds of years earlier is a denial of Tevinter atrocities and the atrocities of any group since that has oppressed elves. It makes little sense for example to claim that the Evanuris were also responsible for Vaughan's gang rape in Origins!

Only if you ignore the probable connection between the Old Gods and the Seven Sealed Evanuris, and their shared/similar themes/portfolios. Tevinter probably conquered the remnants of the Elvhen either on the urging of the Evanuris or that of the Chosen of the Evanuris. 

 

Tevinter is very much to blame, I'm not removing guilt form them, just adding guilt to the Evanuris.

[LordParbr]

I don't really have any animosity for DA elves. Not even the Dalish. Still, it was strangely gratifying when it turned out that literally EVERYTHING the Dalish thought they knew about their past was wrong, aside from the bare basics of their myths

[In Exile]

That sounded, to me, like exactly what Solas was doing. How could know the history of then Evanuris if he wasn't there to see it first hand?

 

How can we know the history of WWI if we weren't there to see it first-hand? The Cold War? Hell, for some people, the Gulf War.

 

More importantly, though, even if Solas was alive at the time, because the elves are all immortal, he could have been a mud farmer the entire time. We don't know what his power was like relative to the Evanuris. That he trapped them doesn't mean he was their equal. 

[Illegitimus]

Only if you ignore the probable connection between the Old Gods and the Seven Sealed Evanuris, and their shared/similar themes/portfolios. Tevinter probably conquered the remnants of the Elvhen either on the urging of the Evanuris or that of the Chosen of the Evanuris. 

 

Tevinter is very much to blame, I'm not removing guilt form them, just adding guilt to the Evanuris.

 

Oh I don't think so.  I think the Old Gods are the enemies of the Evanuris who usurped them and displaced their original followers (the lizard guys).  I think they may have "encouraged" their Tevinter followers to take advantage of the vulnerability of the Elves after their loss of their powers.  

[Vit246]

I don't really have any animosity for DA elves. Not even the Dalish. Still, it was strangely gratifying when it turned out that literally EVERYTHING the Dalish thought they knew about their past was wrong, aside from the bare basics of their myths

 

Not "literally EVERYTHING". Don't exaggerate.

[Tidus]

A passing thought..The people that hate the Dalish is the very first to add facial tattoos to humans and in turn that makes that human a Dalish wannabe.

 

That's akin to dressing like the Beatles back in the 60s complete with Beatle boots.

[Heimerdinger]

A passing thought..The people that hate the Dalish is the very first to add facial tattoos to humans and in turn that makes that human a Dalish wannabe.

 

The Carta wear facial tatoos, does that make them Dalish wannabes too?

[vertigomez]

A passing thought..The people that hate the Dalish is the very first to add facial tattoos to humans and in turn that makes that human a Dalish wannabe.
 
That's akin to dressing like the Beatles back in the 60s complete with Beatle boots.

The Dalish aren't the only ones with facial tattoos.

[TK514]

A passing thought..The people that hate the Dalish is the very first to add facial tattoos to humans and in turn that makes that human a Dalish wannabe.

 

That's akin to dressing like the Beatles back in the 60s complete with Beatle boots.

 

You hit post without really thinking this one through, didn't you?

[Nimlowyn]

A passing thought..The people that hate the Dalish is the very first to add facial tattoos to humans and in turn that makes that human a Dalish wannabe.

That's akin to dressing like the Beatles back in the 60s complete with Beatle boots.

Try telling a Crow he's a Dalish wannabe, see what happens to you.

[vertigomez]

Try telling a Crow he's a Dalish wannabe, see what happens to you.

I forgot about Zev! He claims to have lots of tattoos.

[Tidus]

The Carta members was brands that was forced to wear those castless tattoos just like the  Dwarf  castless Warden.

 

Like I said it was a passing thought about humans not castless Dwarves or crows having facial tattoos..

[vertigomez]

The Carta members was brands that was forced to wear those castless tattoos just like the  Dwarf  castless Warden.
 
Like I said it was a passing thought about humans not castless Dwarves or crows having facial tattoos..

Facial tattoos are not uncommon among the Chasind or in Rivain, and dwarf nobles have tattoo options that are totally unique to them - they don't resemble the casteless brand at all.

[Nimlowyn]

Facial tattoos are not uncommon among the Chasind or in Rivain, and dwarf nobles have tattoo options that are totally unique to them - they don't resemble the casteless brand at all.

Not to mention the Legion of the Dead. Try telling THEM that they are Dalish wannabes...

[Patient.Zero]

After reading though 8/29 pages of this forum (Though have no fear I plan to read through it all!) I have come to consulsion that I have zero qualms with the portrayal of elves in Dragon Age. Like many have mentioned before me, I think they are presented quite interestingly in this game. Unlike the usual portrayal where they are the beautiful to your pretty, the wise to your clever, the magical to your talented and just an over all better-then-you group of people, this time round the elves aren’t above humanity they are apart of it. They engage hubris, bigotry, and kindness just as any other race in Thedas. They make mistakes be cause that's what people do. 

 

I think any problem I do have with elves is when players try to once again remove them from the confides of humanity. Constantly making excuses for instances of poor decision making rather then of accepting those poor decisions for what they are… poor decisions. I haven’t been on the forums for a while so maybe this has changed but I remember a time where some folks could find absolutely no fault in Solas regardless of what what he did, simply because he was (arguably) mysterious and elven. Then there were those who insisted the elves deserved better. Not equal treatment mind you, they wanted the elves to receive better treatment then everybody else simply because they were elven. 

 

To put it into perspective, every race in Thedas had their own British empire level of glory back in the day, and as time went on each of those empires eroded away to form what we currently see in the age of the dragon. Yet, for some reason I’m told to ignore all of that and automatically accept that the loss of the elven empire was the tragedy of all tragedies. People can shout from the forum roof tops that that the elves are the best, but disagree even politely and your labeled has having no empathy or “not understanding the depth of their characterization”. Then there is the fact that people can write entire threads referring to humans as shems and qunari as ox-men and it’s perfectly fine, but mention that sometimes the Dalish have a misplaced superiority complex and all of a sudden you’re a racist… So, I guess that would kinda-sorta put me under categories 5 and 9 of your list? 

[VorexRyder]

Oh I don't think so.  I think the Old Gods are the enemies of the Evanuris who usurped them and displaced their original followers (the lizard guys).  I think they may have "encouraged" their Tevinter followers to take advantage of the vulnerability of the Elves after their loss of their powers.  

Elgar'nan/Vengeance-Dumat/Silence-Dumah is the angel of silence and of the stillness of death. (Ancient elves would not call on Elgar'nan to deliver justice, for his fury would destroy all it touched.)

Ghilan'nain/Mother of Halla(and Monsters)-Zazikel/Chaos

Sylaise/Hearthkeeper(Fire)-Toth/Fire

Andruil/Hunt and Sacrifice-Andoral/Slaves

June/Crafts-Urthemiel/Beauty- His High Priest was known as the Architect of Beautiful Works(Craftmanship)

 

 

(and the last two, who are 'twin souls')

Dirhtamen/Secrets-Razikale/Mystery

Falon'Din/Death-Lusacan/Night

 

 

http://amagicrobot.t...at-does-it-mean

[Jedi Master of Orion]

He was close to Mythal and she was there.  Also he is not entirely honest.

 

The thing is, what he calls slaves is what normal people would call "worshippers".  Clearly the Evanuris were not in fact buying and selling their subjects.  If they were, the elves wouldn't be marked for life.  The vast majority of them would have no actual dealings with the Evanuris apart from the normal interaction with with one's rulers.  Which is to say, "there are laws and you are expected to obey them".  

 

Mythal never rejected the role of being a God-Queen or having branded slaves. Even Flemeth, for her part, seems to be selling the idea that Mythal was indeed a god. It seems unlikely he inherited the attitude of being the "God of Rebellion" from her.

 

How can we know the history of WWI if we weren't there to see it first-hand? The Cold War? Hell, for some people, the Gulf War.

 

More importantly, though, even if Solas was alive at the time, because the elves are all immortal, he could have been a mud farmer the entire time. We don't know what his power was like relative to the Evanuris. That he trapped them doesn't mean he was their equal. 

 

 

That's different, we live in a completely different society and world compared to the Elvhenan. The Evanuris present themselves as gods, if the information that they were not was just readily available to anyone, then that would undermine their entire claim. 

[TK514]

That's different, we live in a completely different society and world compared to the Elvhenan. The Evanuris present themselves as gods, if the information that they were not was just readily available to anyone, then that would undermine their entire claim. 

 

According to Solas, they worked their way up to godhood via public opinion.  It seems unlikely that they murdered entire immortal elven populations that remembered when they were just generals or kings so that no one would know.

 

It doesn't seem far fetched to surmise that at some point the were referred to as 'god-like', and over time unknowable, people just dropped the '-like'.

 

This conversation makes me wonder, though.  Who introduced a race of immortal reality-altering beings to the concept of gods to begin with?  Did the elves have gods before the Evanuris, that have long since been erased from history?  Did they hear tales of all powerful entities called 'gods' from some lesser race and think "Oh, that's a neat idea, let's call ourselves that"?  At what point did loyalty become worship, or did it ever?  I don't recall any specifics of his dialog, but do we, as players, really understand the relationship between someone like Abelas and Mythal?

 

Is it possible that the Evanuris were never really gods, as we use the term, to their people, but rather that this interpretation of them is a product of generations of elves living under Tevinter rule?

[DebatableBubble]

You hit post without really thinking this one through, didn't you?

I laughed.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

This conversation makes me wonder, though.  Who introduced a race of immortal reality-altering beings to the concept of gods to begin with?  Did the elves have gods before the Evanuris, that have long since been erased from history?  Did they hear tales of all powerful entities called 'gods' from some lesser race and think "Oh, that's a neat idea, let's call ourselves that"?  At what point did loyalty become worship, or did it ever?  I don't recall any specifics of his dialog, but do we, as players, really understand the relationship between someone like Abelas and Mythal?

 

Is it possible that the Evanuris were never really gods, as we use the term, to their people, but rather that this interpretation of them is a product of generations of elves living under Tevinter rule?

 

The records in the fade library from the time of the Evanuris show that they were considered gods even back when they ruled the empire. As do the records on the ancient elven ruins.

[TK514]

The records in the fade library from the time of the Evanuris show that they were considered gods even back when they ruled the empire. As do the records on the ancient elven ruins.

 

I wonder when the concept appears in elven society, then.