Its possible that they came upon the notion of a higher class of being entirely on their own and it gradually was applied to them.I wonder when the concept appears in elven society, then.
That's different, we live in a completely different society and world compared to the Elvhenan. The Evanuris present themselves as gods, if the information that they were not was just readily available to anyone, then that would undermine their entire claim.
The Inquisitor was presented as divinely chosen. We know for a fact that's false. Yet that doesn't stop people literally there at the time from believing it. The Evanuris performed feats that seemed impossible, potentially using magic that they had discovered themselves, created or their own, or found through some other source not available to them. Elves are born and die, even if they are immortal.
Solas doesn't need to be there to learn their origin. He can learn it from someone who was there, or from his own reading of the historical accounts, with a skeptical eye. Just like how the 16th century had its own atheists, etc.
I only really dislike the dalish because they constantly bemoan the past, so much so that they've ceased to live in the present. Their entire culture is fractured, divided and decaying, they're distrusted by a wide variety of in world factions, and yet they continue to wallow in their self pity and do nothing.
It's personal to me because I come from a culture in which that kind of attitude has led to a widespread substance abuse problem and casual bigotry.
They're so caught up in blaming others for their problems that they've ceased working to solve them, and those that do, do it to the detriment of the rest of the world.
EDIT: I think your introduction to the Dalish in Origins in Zathrian should be enough to show you how the elves issue of holding grudges forever is just harmful.
The Inquisitor was presented as divinely chosen. We know for a fact that's false. Yet that doesn't stop people literally there at the time from believing it. The Evanuris performed feats that seemed impossible, potentially using magic that they had discovered themselves, created or their own, or found through some other source not available to them. Elves are born and die, even if they are immortal.
Solas doesn't need to be there to learn their origin. He can learn it from someone who was there, or from his own reading of the historical accounts, with a skeptical eye. Just like how the 16th century had its own atheists, etc.
Information about the truth of the Inquisitor was not readily available to most people. Including the Inquisitor for much of the game.
Information about the truth of the Inquisitor was not readily available to most people. Including the Inquisitor for much of the game.
It was very available. Including to Cassandra, who was potentially and literally there for every single reveal, and refuses to believe any of it (or rather, continues to believe in it all). That's how cults work. No one is alive today who had absolutely any insight or presence into e.g. the events in or about 0-40 C.E. into the alleged divinity of a particularly famous alleged god, but that doesn't stop atheists today from calling shenanigans on the whole bit.
Solas doesn't need to be there for any of it to question it. He doesn't even need an account different from the widely believed religious account. He just needs to deny their divinity. That's it. You can't 'prove' something is divine. You believe it, or you don't. It has nothing to do with being there. Solas may have been there. But he needn't be there to not believe. Any more than he needs to be there to believe.
The Inquisitor was presented as divinely chosen. We know for a fact that's false.
It depends on how you look at it, which plays into the root cause of my Inquisitor's struggles with his faith.
In the Fade, we see what literally happened: Corypheus had an orb, the Divine knocked it out of his hand, my guy picked it up and simultaneously received the Anchor and caused the Conclave explosion. We also know that it was Divine Justinia that "delivered" the PC from the Fade. Those are facts. Later on, we learn that the orb was given to Corypheus by Solas as part of his plan. That is also a fact. I do not dispute any of those factual things. BUT, what can be disputed, and touches on the core elements of faith which are an underlying theme of this game, is whether the Maker set ALL of these events in motion.
If you believe in the Maker, then it might necessarily follow that you believe he is responsible for everything. I'm not talking about what the Chantry teaches, but only about belief in a single divine entity that has power over all creation. This includes the evanuris and their original actions, Solas, the original seven magisters that breached the Fade, the Blights, and on and on.
This is reflected in Fade-Justinia's words to the questioning Inquisitor...
Inquisitor: So this was, what, an accident? A random ricochet in the middle of a fight?
Fade-Justinia: And if it was?
Inquisitor: If it was, then neither the Maker nor Andraste were in any way involved in this! I’m just…
Fade-Justinia: If you believe in the Maker, then you believe He made this world and everything in it, including your accident. And if you do not, then nothing has changed.
And later...
Inquisitor: Seems like I was in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Fade-Justinia: Or perhaps you were precisely where you were meant to be.
Inquisitor: Just as the Maker intended, I suppose?
Fade-Justinia: Perhaps.
The reason this is such a problem for my Inquisitor is because it goes against the teachings of the Chantry and what he has been led to believe his whole life. Even Leliana alludes to in her grief dialogue at Haven: that the Maker has abandoned us. And if that's the case, then how can He be responsible for anything? And yet, even someone as cynical as Dorian believes that the Maker is out there watching over us; not because he was taught so, because the alternative is "too frightening."
While there are undisputed events that happened a certain way, I think the question of divine intervention, no matter what form the intervention took, is still open to personal interpretation for each Inquisitor.
The Inquisitor was presented as divinely chosen. We know for a fact that's false.
I know no such thing.
While there are undisputed events that happened a certain way, I think the question of divine intervention, no matter what form the intervention took, is still open to personal interpretation for each Inquisitor.
But that's my point. As players, we know the "Maker" didn't actually actively intervene (or rather, are as close to knowing it as anything we are to knowing anything about the setting). But that isn't proof of non-divinity. My point is that belief like this has nothing to do with the underlying facts. Solas could have been there for the rise of the Evanuris. Or he might not have been. That's not what matters for his acceptance or rejection of their alleged divinity.
Really?
Not "literally EVERYTHING". Don't exaggerate.
Really?
Fen'Harel didn't betray Mythal. Humans weren't responsible for the loss of their culture. Their gods were really just powerful mages. Valaslin is slave brands. Aside from some words and the bare basics of their myths, they were wrong about literally everything
Sorry but that sentence is a fallacy. If there are things to put aside they are not wrong about "literally everything"...because "literally everything" would include those things put aside. It's...literally everything. When discussing immortality in Trespasser Solas says their legends are "half right". That is not "literally everything".
The Dalish forgot plenty of things, and what was handed down was pro-Evanuris propoganda. As for the nature of the Evanuris, their nature as "really powerful mages" does not necessarily mean they were not "gods". It just depends on how you answer the question "what is a god". The Avvar certainly aren't phased that their gods are "just spirits" because they understand divinity differently than, say, the Chantry. Solas created the veil and can petrify people with his will. You could certainly make a case that those are godlike powers at least in the Thedas of 9:44 Dragon, regardless if Solas thinks of himself as a god or not.
Sorry but that sentence is a fallacy. If there are things to put aside they are not wrong about "literally everything"...because "literally everything" would include those things put aside. It's...literally everything. When discussing immortality in Trespasser Solas says their legends are "half right". That is not "literally everything".
The Dalish forgot plenty of things, and what was handed down was pro-Evanuris propoganda. As for the nature of the Evanuris, their nature as "really powerful mages" does not necessarily mean they were not "gods". It just depends on how you answer the question "what is a god". The Avvar certainly aren't phased that their gods are "just spirits" because they understand divinity differently than, say, the Chantry. Solas created the veil and can petrify people with his will. You could certainly make a case that those are godlike powers at least in the Thedas of 9:44 Dragon, regardless if Solas thinks of himself as a god or not.
But that's my point. As players, we know the "Maker" didn't actually actively intervene (or rather, are as close to knowing it as anything we are to knowing anything about the setting). But that isn't proof of non-divinity. My point is that belief like this has nothing to do with the underlying facts. Solas could have been there for the rise of the Evanuris. Or he might not have been. That's not what matters for his acceptance or rejection of their alleged divinity.
We as players don't know whether the Maker exists or whether he has a plan. That's basically the purpose of the Maker in the narrative. We don't know whether he had a hand in anything.
Early on, neither the Inquisitor nor the Inquisition know who saved them or how they got the mark. Cassandra does not continue to believe that Andraste personally plucked the Inquisitor from the Fade or blessed them with the mark after she finds out it was a spirit and an elven artifact respectively.
If you can roleplay a male elf to the end more power to you but the animations and being paper thin is a huge turn off. And whats up with his head bending down in all convos, its like hes scared of everyone, i like elves most in all fantasy settings so i dont hate them its just hard immersing as one in THIS game
@DreamSever: Have you met the DA elves? They are scared of everything... victimization is a species trait.
I dont expect the protag to though, not really heroic, mahariel was bearable though
My problem with invoking Tevinter slavery, Red Crossing and the Exalted March on the Dales, the plight of Alienage Elves and/or Dalish isolationism is that far too often people will cherry pick what lore suits their preconceived argument, and ignore the rest. Not to mention how all in game histories are written from biased perspectives, if not outright lies from both sides. When new information that contradicts previous lore comes to light, no one can agree; was this information previously established in the DA bible, or is another retcon?
It is for this reason I prefer focusing on the players' own reasons, rather than lore. I find it much easier to create new insights that way, rather than recycling old ones.
Usually... 
Really?
SpoilerAside from some words and the bare basics of their myths, they were wrong about literally everything
The only one of those I consider to be established is "Fen'Harel didn't betray Mythal". Humans did in fact make a point of eradicating elvish culture. Having dealt with a mere fragment of Mythal I do not consider her just a "powerful mage". And yes, Fen'Harel considers the vallaslin to be "slave brands". But Fen'Harel was a rebel. Hardly an unbiased evaluator.
Inexile ,In my past three games and even in the fourth my Inquisitor never once claims to be the herald of Andraste. Every time I try playing a hume I end up restarting the game.
I honestly have to admit I'm kinda excited to see the tevinter Imperiums version of this xenophobia and discrimination, since Elves and Humans both can be slaves, and Both(If mages) can rise above their status, Humans higher than elves obviously.
its just interesting the mind set of the north and south when it comes to elves, In origins, People are almost disgusted by elves and Most are cruel to them because they know they can get away with it or use them as scapegoat.
Than when you listen to the Tevinter talk about their elves slaves or their destruction and reverse Engineering of the Elven culture, they speak about it so much more matter of fact, Like its the way life is supposed to be, Like their is no anger or sorrow for them.
The culture differences is very interesting and i can't wait to see it in DA:4
Kieran,I too look forward to DA:4 and my PC will be a Elf.. As Sera says "Its all good right?" I do know this, if there isn't a Elf pc I won't buy the game. I just hope the story line is more about freeing slaves and not fighting evil mages from the start.
You forgot one point, OP: Most elves don't look or act "macho", therefor there are fit only to be hated and ridiculed as sissy-pansy-f*ggy-prettyboys in the eyes of some people. I don't really hang out in the DA fandom so I don't know how often that crops up here, but I've definitely seen this attitude quite a bit in various other contexts, more or less thinly veiled.
The accusations of "Mary Sue"-dom are often true to some degree -- but at the same time it's a funny accusation to make since the real Mary Sues in most settings I know are the humans. DA doesn't do the human-w*nk as much as Mass Effect seems to do -- one reason why I could never get into that series -- but it still hits the generic humans-rule-elves-and-dwarves-are-dying-and-done notes which half-bore and half-annoy me.
I am so, SO glad that someone said this. People not liking Elves due to not being "masculine" being a big part of my overarching theory on Elf hate.
Most of the people I've seen complaining about elves hate or disdain elf males for being pretty, but tolerate elf females cus they want a "submissive pretty elf waifu".
I think that if elves were depicted as a hyper-aggressive "masculine" culture they would get far FAR less hate. "Mary sue" or no.
Umm... the Dalish are a culture of brutish poachers.. They ARE hyper-aggressive... it's part of their problem. They're a minority who keeps throwing rocks at their oppressor and wonders why they haven't "won" yet. It's laughable... but believable. Actually, it's worse... the Dalish throw the rocks, the City Elves suffer and then the Dalish have the AUDACITY to malign the city elves for suffering... and I've yet to see a DA elf I'd describe as "notably" pretty
Certainly not in the same way as the Tolkien elves or the High Elves of say... Warhammer Fantasy (and those two elf types I like).
BUT... if by "sissy-pansy-faggy-prettyboys" you mean... slighted minority who finds victimization everywhere... then yeah, that's exactly why I hate the DA elves.
BUT... if by "sissy-pansy-faggy-prettyboys" you mean... slighted minority who finds victimization everywhere... then yeah, that's exactly why I hate the DA elves.
That's not what Korva meant at all. I would think that was pretty clear.
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