Aller au contenu

Photo

Deconstructing Elf Hate


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
757 réponses à ce sujet

#751
Gervaise

Gervaise
  • Members
  • 4 506 messages

I think there are a lot of underlying reasons why there is so much elf hate among players but being able to play out real life hatred for certain people in society with impunity because the game lore allows it is probably one of them.   It works the opposite way with me; since I invariably relate to the maligned, marginalised people in society, I can identify with and role play an elf character for more happily than a human one, since the latter PCs have consistently been part of the nobility and therefore the ones responsible for the injustice.      Having been picked on and bullied at school for my slim (elf-like) body I don't have a problem with the elf model, provided it at least has muscles where there should be muscles.    Essentially it should be like the difference between a sprinter (human) and a long distance runner (elf).   Both are athletes but they have a different basic body form.   In fact I was a very good long distance runner but no good at the disciplines that involved raw power, like sprinting.  I was also rather good at fast, agile sword play (fencing) and archery, so really very much an elf.

 

You will never change Medhia-Nox's mind about  DA elves; the prejudice is deeply rooted and blind to any other point of view.   However, I do wonder where the idea of brutish poachers comes from or that they are consistently throwing rocks at their oppressors.   Actually, most of the ones in game are shown as just wanting to be left alone to live their lives as they wish.   You can play your Dalish elf as aggressive if you wish but it would be wrong to call that the norm.    The only real criticism that is valid is that they are stuck in the past and their lives will never change because there is no impetus to do so and so their culture has become stagnant.    However, that is a criticism that could also be levelled at every other society in Thedas.   The reason some of the changes that can be made in DAI seem so jarring (like the clerics suddenly voting in a mage as Divine) is that they come totally out of the blue after hundreds of years of exactly the same.    Take the Grand Game in Orlais; Drakon tried to get rid of it 800 years before, but it is still going strong.     It would seem the last big shake up of society in Thedas was Andraste's Exalted  March, with a slightly lesser one when the Qunari popped up.     

 

Elves have been slaves of Tevinter for thousands of years and their second grade status in the rest of Thedas is really only an extension of this.   When a noble in Orlais (Celene) can sacrifice an entire household of servants (human probably as well as elves) in order to advance her position in society and no one calls her to account for it (she was clearly not the only one who has ever done this), then really it is no different to a Tevinter mage advancing themselves through blood magic.     That is why I want a big shake up with the elves because I want to get rid of the hypocrisy that is endemic in their society that claims to believe in the Maker but ignores every aspect of the social teaching in the Chant.     Since the mages have their freedom in southern Orlais regardless of the choices made by the PC, it is about time that the elves got their freedom.   What they do with it after that is entirely up to them.



#752
Witch Cocktor

Witch Cocktor
  • Members
  • 673 messages

If anyone says that male elves are pretty in DAI.... yeah, that's bullshit. Male elves are generally dopey and awkward looking. Nothing pretty about them, unless you are a wizard with the CC.


  • In Exile et GoldenGail3 aiment ceci

#753
kimgoold

kimgoold
  • Members
  • 448 messages

I am so, SO glad that someone said this. People not liking Elves due to not being "masculine" being a big part of my overarching theory on Elf hate. 

 

Most of the people I've seen complaining about elves hate or disdain elf males for being pretty, but tolerate elf females cus they want a "submissive pretty elf waifu". 

 

I think that if elves were depicted as a hyper-aggressive "masculine" culture they would get far FAR less hate. "Mary sue" or no.

This I would love to see, fingers crossed we see some of this characterisation developed with the new elves appearing in DA4. If they could just expand the envelope wider than just victims it would be so refreshing; I'm delighted they made the old elves flawed and filled with malice and self interest (Evanuris) this is a great storyline that needs to be explored more.


  • scruffylad aime ceci

#754
Gervaise

Gervaise
  • Members
  • 4 506 messages

There was a really interesting group of city elves known as the Night Elves, who were guerrilla fighters who assisted Loghain and Maric in the war against Orlais but have never been mentioned again outside of the novel.   This was odd because you'd think they would have been looking to better conditions for elves under Maric, instead of the laws still being skewed against them.   There is reference in DAI to the notoriety of Dalish assassins but really no evidence of them in actual game play.   However, they are used in the Dalish elf war table mission and are essential to its successful resolution.      I don't play my elves as victims; far from it.   They are strong determined individuals determined to get the respect of other people.   

 

I loved the city elf origin in DAO because of the way you get to fight back against your oppressors and I hope that no one would suggest that breaking up a wedding and threatening rape, plus actually raping your friend, is in any way justifiable behaviour on the part of the ruling elite.   The Chantry Mother didn't object nearly strenuously enough to Vaughan's behaviour to my mind.     Likewise I was sympathetic to the stance of the elven brothers in DA2 who took the law into their own hands because their sister was raped by a guardsman and Averline hadn't thought it important enough to look into until he was killed.     However, I also sympathise with the Dalish point of view that historically the city elves seem to have simply rolled over and given in to human oppression.  In a way when an elf runs away from the city and approaches the Dalish for admittance, they are no longer a flat ear because they decided not to submit any longer to that way of life.   I can also see where Sera is coming from when she preferred to join a group that fought back against the oppression instead of sitting around complaining about it.    



#755
Artona

Artona
  • Members
  • 183 messages

"Deconstructing Elf Hate"... title of that thread sounds somewhat patronising: "it's just about your unsolved issues!".
​So, let's not get all Freudy ;). Here's how I see it: as once S. King said, story-telling is basically about seducing someone, and I believe this applies to games as well. But you need to be good at this, right?
​So, where I see Dragon Age elves: with long lost glory (seen it), floating cities (seen it), being older civilization than humans (seen it) and more skilled with magic in their days of glory than any other kind (seen it), being oppressed by humans (seen it), yet not changed into hate-driven desperate terrorists...
​I say that this is story-telling equivalent of "did it hurt when fell from heaven?".
 



#756
Medhia_Nox

Medhia_Nox
  • Members
  • 3 530 messages

@Gervaise:  You are mostly incorrect.

 

I take elves in game on a case by case basis - and I have found most City Elves to be a maligned people just trying to get by.  Likewise, I have found most Dalish absolutely repugnant and slaves to the cycle of oppression they've found themselves in. 

 

And regardless of how I see the Dalish... if you think I'd not intervene if a group of Chevalier's charged into a Dalish camp intent on slaughtering the innocent - you would be incorrect.  My assessment of the Dalish does not dictate moral action. 

 

Just like anyone who follows Solas will, if the game allows, recant their allegiance or die if I'm ever called to deal with him - but that's not because they're elves.  It's because they're following a psycho.


  • Heimdall et Bayonet Hipshot aiment ceci

#757
Walter Black

Walter Black
  • Members
  • 95 messages

@Artona: The act of deconstructing an idea by itself doesn't necessarily carry any moral judgement. Far to too often people will cherry pick whatever lore they think supports their pre-conceived argument. Personally, I would rather get to why they chose their stance to begin with. Like I said just as many legitimate reasons to dislike Elves (Mary Suedom, lack of originality, etc.) as illegitimate (comparing them to other versions rather judging the DA ones on their own, complaining about fantasy characters in a fantasy game, using Elves as convenient metaphor for whatever real world group, etc.).

 

Consequently, they are just many Pro Elven fans who have good reasons (the love of nature and magic and beauty, the desire to explore what they can't have in real life, etc.) and bad reasons (Mary Suedom, martyrdom, entitlement. Godwinning, identifying with a fictional races a little too much, etc.) for why they love Elves.



#758
Vit246

Vit246
  • Members
  • 1 464 messages

However, I also sympathise with the Dalish point of view that historically the city elves seem to have simply rolled over and given in to human oppression.  In a way when an elf runs away from the city and approaches the Dalish for admittance, they are no longer a flat ear because they decided not to submit any longer to that way of life.  

I wish more people understood this Dalish pov and cut them some slack for just being a little condescending to their kin. I may not like it but I understand it. Frankly both groups look down on each other.