757 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I would say that I don't like certain aspects of behaviors of certain Elves. For one, I find the lack of intellectual curiosity among the Dalish Elves to be unappealing. They roam the wilds as nomads trying to live the so-called old ways but they never or rarely take the time to understand what those old ways are. I find their nose-thumbing of non-Dalish elves like City Elves to be distasteful. I also find the blanket attack on all Humans to be immature. I can understand blanket suspicion, but attacks ? Nope.

 

The key thing is that I can say the same of Humans, Dwarves and Qunaris too.

 

Many Humans blindly follow the Chant of light and are willing to castigate their own kind like the Avvar as barbarians. Humans also do not possess the intellectual curiosity to invesitage the claims and myths made about Andraste, Maker, Chant of Light, Shartan.

 

Dwarves have a highly unfair caste system and are gleefully ignorant of their past. True, they do not have any specific enmity against the other races, but on the surface many of them lead lives of crime.

 

The Qunari have a individually suffocating and individually oppressive system. They view the other races as somehow lesser and need to be subjugated or enlightened by the Qun. The word Bas is an example of what I am talking about.

 

As for hate, I find that it is too strong a word to descibe one's disposition to fictitous characters. I mean, this is fiction.

 

At the end of the day, I find that each race is flawed and messed up in some way. There is no good or superior race here. As for the Egghead, I do not see the problem of having an Elven villain that has some humanizing element to him.

[Qis]

@Qis:  All these elves are probably "trying" to emulate one of the most popular North American representatives of the indigenous tribes... the north east forest dwellers that predominantly composed the Iroquois league. 

 

They were forest dwellers... and made ample use of the bow.

 

The tactics (not dissimilar to what we call guerrilla tactics) they employed were likely long forgotten in the Old World as military demands from Europe to Asia would have made their tactics obsolete (except perhaps in the hands of special forces like the Hashashins or the Ninja).  This made them very effective against the European invaders.

 

I don't recall Native American tribes who live in forests using bow...only the ones who live in steppe using bow because of the wide range, open space, archery have advantage in open area rather than close one...but maybe the particular tribe you mention using bow

 

In the forest, the arrow may got stuck between brances and leaves, also between entangling web of vegetations, drawing bow also give limited stealth posture, it also produce the "krik" sound when drawing making animals will just run away, animals have sensitive ears

 

Blow pipe offer better acuracy, silent, and posture advantage, you may even crawl down using blow pipe. That's why for centuries the native tribes who live in the forests using blow pipes rather than using bow.

 

Yes Dragon Age Dalish Elves do look like Native American tribe, but i am talking about Elves generally,

[Aimi]

I like elves just fine, and I like Dragon Age elves okay too. My favorite player character in any of the games is still a City Elf.

I don't hate that they're Mary Sues, because I don't think they are, at least in this franchise. I don't hate that they're fantasy because this is a fantasy game and this kind of comes with the territory? I don't hate that they're not something new, because I wasn't expecting them to be new. I don't hate that they look like children because I don't think they look like children; I'm pretty tall in RL anyway so everybody but qunari look short to me. I don't particularly care about the tumblr coding for elves, and what side of the SJW/MRA war they're on. I don't dislike that they're at the bottom of the totem pole, because...why is that a negative? I dunno.

The Dalish blow, though. I don't really mind their obnoxious parochialism as depicted in the games in itself, and I don't really mind that it turns out their culture and religion are a fairly embarrassing misreading of their history. The first one of those things isn't that unusual, and the second one of those things is kind of how history works for a lot of people in the real world. What annoys me about the Dalish is how their lifestyle and history make little to no sense. They're a migratory group with no pattern, no herd animals (the halla aren't ever actually used as freaking herd animals), no obvious consistent food sources, and who are apparently unwilling to trade with other people despite trade being absolutely crucial to any nomadic lifestyle in significant numbers. This, again, doesn't make them unique; I don't only dislike the Dalish for this, but also the qunari and dwarves and "the way trade and war are described at like any point in the setting other than Jaws of Hakkon" and so on. But it is a problem.

I also think that an awful lot of the most die-hard fans of DA elves in general and Dalish elves in particular are annoying and intolerant. Doesn't mean I go around trolling them or whatever. I disapprove of their opinion and the way they express it, but I don't usually go over to their threads and eat LobselVith's cereal or whatever.

So yeah. Close to 8 and 9, but not quite on either count.

[shortbreadspacer]

re: "Humans are boring" (an argument I really dislike), letting us play as something other than a human noble would go a long way toward reducing the number of times we hear that complaint.

 

Also, if you really want to get technical, you could argue that elves are the most "boring", as in the least diverse, in the World of Thedas. They have two social variations, Dalish and city elves. Dwarves have four - nobles, commoners, casteless and surfacers. Humans can be Avaar, nobles, commoners, circle mages, apostates, templars. I'm always squishy with Qunari lore, it seems like they vary a lot because of their strict roles, but I guess you could argue that you're either Qunari, Vashoth or Tal-Vashoth.

 

I am so thirsty for fantasy with truly unique creatures! Let's retire elves, dwarves and orc-like beings from any new franchises, even humans if we're being bold. I think the Khajit was TES' attempt at diversity, even if it's just a cat head on a humanish body.

[Dabrikishaw]

Wouldn't know. I hate human PCs. How bland's a person gotta be to play a human in fantasy game?

This attitude towards how other people like to play is not conductive. Elf fans can't whine about being attacked when they do this kind of crap.

 

For the record, I have no issue playing as an Elf, Dalish or City. My favorite race to play as is Human but you don't see me going into threads insulting people that don't want to play one.

[Evamitchelle]

re: "Humans are boring" (an argument I really dislike), letting us play as something other than a human noble would go a long way toward reducing the number of times we hear that complaint.

Also, if you really want to get technical, you could argue that elves are the most "boring", as in the least diverse, in the World of Thedas. They have two social variations, Dalish and city elves. Dwarves have four - nobles, commoners, casteless and surfacers. Humans can be Avaar, nobles, commoners, circle mages, apostates, templars. I'm always squishy with Qunari lore, it seems like they vary a lot because of their strict roles, but I guess you could argue that you're either Qunari, Vashoth or Tal-Vashoth.

I am so thirsty for fantasy with truly unique creatures! Let's retire elves, dwarves and orc-like beings from any new franchises, even humans if we're being bold. I think the Khajit was TES' attempt at diversity, even if it's just a cat head on a humanish body.

I wouldn't say that DA elves have less variations than other races, you could easily add categories for slave, circle Mage and now ancient elf as well. And there's bound to be variations based on nationality, though probably not as much as with humans. But yeah, acting like playing as an elf in a fantasy game makes you more creative than a human player is just, no.

I'm all for unique races as well. Maybe we could finally learn what the Fex are and what they look like ?

[shortbreadspacer]

I wouldn't say that DA elves have less variations than other races, you could easily add categories for slave, circle Mage and now ancient elf as well. And there's bound to be variations based on nationality, though probably not as much as with humans. But yeah, acting like playing as an elf in a fantasy game makes you more creative than a human player is just, no.

I'm all for unique races as well. Maybe we could finally learn what the Fex are and what they look like ?

Yeah, my argument isn't air-tight, but I just really hate false superiority based on fictional choices.

 

Are you talking about the scaled beings described in Descent? I'd love to learn about them. Maybe one can show up Javik style.

[Evamitchelle]

Yeah, my argument isn't air-tight, but I just really hate false superiority based on fictional choices.

Are you talking about the scaled beings described in Descent? I'd love to learn about them. Maybe one can show up Javik style.

The Fex are a sapient race native to Par Vollen and assimilated into Qunari culture. They were mentioned like once and then never brought up again. But the Scaled Ones would be interesting too.

[nightscrawl]

Anduril. You know, that elf who got bored and decided that hunting her own people like animals would be fun.
 
Ugh. The fact that the Dalish still worship that creature is revolting. No wonder Solas distanced himself from them.

Well, to be fair, it's not like the Dalish know about that, which is really the whole point about the Dalish: they're mostly ignorant of their history. And really, if this happened thousands of years ago, I can't really fault them for that either.
 
 

@TK514:  I both agree and disagree with you.  There are aspects of the "victim" race I really liked... mostly, the potential for the means by which they would strive for freedom.  I was hoping Bioware would explore something more like Martin Luther King Jr.  or Gandhi... or, perhaps at least something like the French Revolution (the first attempt which ended terribly bad for the revolutionaries).

We might get something along those lines in DA4 if there is a slave revolt in Tevinter. In DA2 Fenris tells us of slave revolts that are swiftly put down. But there are two factors that can hasten that eventuality: lack of organization, and the Tevinter government having the resources to focus only on the slave revolt.

From the end of Trespasser we know that the Qunari have now renewed their efforts against Tevinter. This will be a drain of resources for the Imperium, and leave them vulnerable to inner conflict if their efforts are focused outside. Also, slaves will be part of the machinery of war as well: making and mending equipment, collecting and moving supplies, and all of the miscellaneous dirty work that goes into war that is not directly relate to combat.

So, if you have Solas's agents putting the bug in the ears of slaves and servants that "now is the time," and organizing them, it could very well be the exact scenario needed to bring Tevinter down.

[Tidus]

Qis,The Eastern Indian tribes  was highly skilled with bow, knife and tomahawk and for them it was no issue using their bows in the forest,open field  or from canoes. This why I compared the Dalish to the Native American tribes. You see both races have much in common in every day survival and trying to keep the old ways alive before its gone forever.

[Addictress]

I agree with everyone that elves and dwarves are hella overplayed.

But I will always applaud Bioware for taking a refreshing approach to them. Elves were underdogs. They USED to be powerful. Now they struggle to accept their deteriorated condition. Even with the introduction of evanuris, the point is not that the world necessitates they return to their Tolkien state. It is the struggle of acceptance, still. City Elves happened and they need to deal with that.

Dwarves honestly are just a nation. Tradition and dwarves things are starting to matter less and less. Read Feynite's Looking Glass and you can see just how awesome they can be. Children of Stone. Titans.

Titans

[nightscrawl]

Dwarves honestly are just a nation. Tradition and dwarves things are starting to matter less and less. Read Feynite's Looking Glass and you can see just how awesome they can be. Children of Stone. Titans.

Titans

I'd rather they be just a nation. I really liked the concept of the caste system**, how that has affected their society, the noble politics, and all of that that we see in DAO with the dwarves. However, I suppose I'm just too used to how the dwarves are depicted in the Warcraft universe, where they are literally children of the stone, creations of that universe's titans that were afflicted with the Curse of Flesh.



** Well I don't actually like it, but it is an intriguing aspect that adds some depth.

[Addictress]

I'd rather they be just a nation. I really liked the concept of the caste system**, how that has affected their society, the noble politics, and all of that that we see in DAO with the dwarves. However, I suppose I'm just too used to how the dwarves are depicted in the Warcraft universe, where they are literally children of the stone, creations of that universe's titans that were afflicted with the Curse of Flesh.



** Well I don't actually like it, but it is an intriguing aspect that adds some depth.

Aw crap. I didn't know Warcraft also had "Children of Stone" and Titans.

I'm so disappointed now. Seriously?

[nightscrawl]

^ Oh... sorry. I don't like to make people bummed out about a fictional world they're into, as I've had issues with that myself and it takes me quite a while to get over them.

 

But yes, in the Warcraft universe, the Titans are responsible for the creation of everything and the ordering of worlds, including the world in the games, Azeroth. They created a bunch of different races and creatures, imprisoned the "Old Gods" (the ones who created the Curse of Flesh) within the earth because they couldn't destroy them outright, created a few guardians, determined their work was done and then left Azeroth to her own devices to develop naturally from that time forward. The Curse of Flesh turned the earthen from stone beings into dwarves.

 

But the Warcraft universe is vastly larger in scope than the Dragon Age universe currently is, and has also been around for decades, so it has had a lot of time to develop and grow. In DA these titans appear to be limited to Thedas only and are a part of that world, whereas in Warcraft they are beings who go TO other worlds and shape them in many different ways.

 

Honestly, other than the similarity in names, I don't think there is much of a comparison, so I don't think you should be too disappointed.

 

To bring it back around to DA, I think the non-reliance on these sorts of supernatural origins are what keep the world grounded. So even though we have the Fade, and magic, and demons, there is an element of, if not "realism," but of plausibility because of the way the world has been constructed.

[Qis]

Qis,The Eastern Indian tribes  was highly skilled with bow, knife and tomahawk and for them it was no issue using their bows in the forest,open field  or from canoes. This why I compared the Dalish to the Native American tribes. You see both races have much in common in every day survival and trying to keep the old ways alive before its gone forever.

 

i know, maybe it depends on what type of forest i think, forest in Asia are so thick, an arrow cannot past the web of vegetation around, maybe that's why archery is not popular among the natives in South East Asia.

 

But i really believe that Elves universally do not based on American natives, Dragon Age Dalish Elves maybe, but not Elves generally. You see Tolkien Elves are not in any way tribal looking, yet they live in the forest and excell in archery.

 

 

I strongly believe Elves are more driven or based on the myth of Sherwood forest bandits lead by Robin Hood

 

Most past writers are not Americans and i doubt they even know about the particular American Natives who use bow in the forest

[M-Taylor]

I'm pretty fond of DA elves since their almost as diverse as humans; Dalish Elves, City Elves, Tevinter Slaves, Old Elves. Better yet, like unlike DnD or Tolkien elves, they aren't inherently superior to everyone else and don't pull the we're unhealthy beautiful shtick.

 

That said, I really, really hate when they call humans shems or shemlen. It's a derogatory racial slur, plain and simple, and using it is just as bad as calling an elf a knife-ear. 

 

 

.... but it's fantasy? Racial tension suits the franchise. I'd be more peeved if they removed both those terms. I approve of my shem hating Dalish, and I also approved of my elf hating noble in DAO.

 

Being racist in a fantasy game does not translate to being bigoted in real life. Far from it, haha.

[In Exile]

I don't hate elves, but I hate some of the tropes that come with them, starting with Tolkien. Immortality is such a burden, yeah (*scoffs*), and in spite of that and some other advantages humans are supposed to still have the better fate? Bah. Portray elves as better, wiser, more badass. and immortal for all I care, but don't be a bigot and claim these aren't extremely desirable traits. In Tolkien's world, I'd give away my humanity for being an elf at any time.

 

In DA, not so much, thankfully. Elves had their time of glory, when they were, again, more capable than humans in every imaginable way, but at the price of being slaves to immortal god-kings with super-magical powers. I would think twice before switching to be an elf in Thedas, even in the times when Elvhenan ruled.

 

The main problem I see with elves is that they're a part of a very standardized fantasy setting. I'm sick of that, I want more imaginative settings. The quanri are at least interesting, and both elven and dwarven cultures are somewhat anti-stereotypical, but they're still elves and dwarves after all.   

 

I will say, though, that for Tolkien there was an important difference: not going to the expy Christian afterlife, as a devout Christian, was a fundamental fatal flaw that made all of the other features of the elves not so great. It's very much a view you have to have to understand - but if you accept his base proposition, then it's easy to see why the elves aren't so great after all. They're not truly ageless or immortal (they age and wither with the world, which will eventually end) and they are not able to enjoy the true spiritual fruits of the world, i.e., the afterlife.

 

But D&D and all of the fantasy tropes that follow from it ignore this super theological distinction, and just turn elves into objectively better humans. 

[Evamitchelle]

.... but it's fantasy? Racial tension suits the franchise. I'd be more peeved if they removed both those terms. I approve of my shem hating Dalish, and I also approved of my elf hating noble in DAO.

 

Being racist in a fantasy game does not translate to being bigoted in real life. Far from it, haha.

 

Um, how do you get 'racial slurs should be removed from the game' from that post ? All it's saying is that they don't like elves who call humans 'shems'. Like, as characters. 

[Il Divo]

I will say, though, that for Tolkien there was an important difference: not going to the expy Christian afterlife, as a devout Christian, was a fundamental fatal flaw that made all of the other features of the elves not so great. It's very much a view you have to have to understand - but if you accept his base proposition, then it's easy to see why the elves aren't so great after all. They're not truly ageless or immortal (they age and wither with the world, which will eventually end) and they are not able to enjoy the true spiritual fruits of the world, i.e., the afterlife.

 

But D&D and all of the fantasy tropes that follow from it ignore this super theological distinction, and just turn elves into objectively better humans. 

 

Hmm, I dunno. That extra feat at level 1 for humans in DnD 3.5 always was appealing for me. I love feats. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

Um, how do you get 'racial slurs should be removed from the game' from that post ? All it's saying is that they don't like elves who call humans 'shems'. Like, as characters. 

 

Thank you. 

[Tidus]

Shemlin=Quick Children.. Elven name for Humans. Its not a racial slur.

[nightscrawl]

Um, how do you get 'racial slurs should be removed from the game' from that post ? All it's saying is that they don't like elves who call humans 'shems'. Like, as characters. 

 

Yepper.

 

The reason I'm not too find of the Dalish is because 2/3 times we've encountered Dalish clans in the games, they instantly responded with antagonism before my character even opened their mouth. I get that they are suspicious because of things that happen, but it's a little hard to be accepting and sympathetic when your first impression of a people is negative. First impressions DO matter, regardless of the reason behind the behavior. I'm also curious to know how they respond to the city elf in DAO, as I've never played one past the prologue.

 

For many players of the franchise, their first ever interaction with the Dalish was as a non-elf who was greeted with antagonism by the Dalish in the Brecilian Forest, and then again as the human Hawke in DA2. One of the guards even uses the word "shem" right off the bat. [edit] Actually, I must correct. I've remembered that it's a bit better with "shemlen," but it is said in a negative way.

 

I thought the reaction in DAI was much better. You can see the suspicion, but the Keeper warns you away cautiously, and not with any undue hostility. Hell, even that guy on the road, when describing some of the weird happenings with the undead says, "Who wouldn't want to kill humans, huh? But still, poor fools." But he's just so damned friendly that it rather takes the sting out of it, even as a human Inquisitor... lol.

 

 

Shemlin=Quick Children.. Elven name for Humans. Its not a racial slur.

 

Sorry, this is BS, and you know it. Regardless of its literal meaning, the elves use it as a slur. Everyone knows that. Just like that Dalish calls Solas "flat-ear." She is being purposely disdainful and superior.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 18 décembre 2015 - 03:10 .

[Qis]

Yepper.

 

The reason I'm not too find of the Dalish is because 2/3 times we've encountered Dalish clans in the games, they instantly responded with antagonism before my character even opened their mouth. I get that they are suspicious because of things that happen, but it's a little hard to be accepting and sympathetic when your first impression of a people is negative. First impressions DO matter, regardless of the reason behind the behavior. I'm also curious to know how they respond to the city elf in DAO, as I've never played one past the prologue.

 

It is the same as playing as human, no difference at all in which i find it is disappointing. But Dalish Elves are demonized by City Elves anyway, they are even considered just rumors and not a real thing. This is also disappointing as the story goes on and on where everyone know Dalish Elves exist.

 

I find so many contradictions about this Dalish vs City Elf, if you play as Dalish it is said that one of Dalish duty is to bring City Elf back to the old ways, meaning you have to be welcoming toward City Elves, but it is not so. You find Pol if you play Dalish origin. But if play City Elf origin, the Dalish are not welcoming at all and treat you like ****.

 

Also if you play as Dalish, when you visit the alienage, it is nothing while you are obviously a Dalish Elf having tattoo on your face, the one who being rumored not exist and savages, no City Elves even aware of that, and there is no option for your to offer them to seek out Dalish camp to return them back to the old way as all Dalish keep prattling on and on

[ComedicSociopathy]

Sorry, this is BS, and you know it. Regardless of its literal meaning, the elves use it as a slur. Everyone knows that. Just like that Dalish calls Solas "flat-ear." She is being purposely disdainful and superior.

 

Elves using that slur is especially ironic and nonsensically since they are just as mortal as humans. 

[Evamitchelle]

Yepper.

 

The reason I'm not too find of the Dalish is because 2/3 times we've encountered Dalish clans in the games, they instantly responded with antagonism before my character even opened their mouth. I get that they are suspicious because of things that happen, but it's a little hard to be accepting and sympathetic when your first impression of a people is negative. First impressions DO matter, regardless of the reason behind the behavior. I'm also curious to know how they respond to the city elf in DAO, as I've never played one past the prologue.

 

For many players of the franchise, their first ever interaction with the Dalish was as a non-elf who was greeted with antagonism by the Dalish in the Brecilian Forest, and then again as the human Hawke in DA2. One of the guards even uses the word "shem" right off the bat.

 

I thought the reaction in DAI was much better. You can see the suspicion, but the Keeper warns you away cautiously, and not with any undue hostility. Hell, even that guy on the road, when describing some of the weird happenings with the undead says, "Who wouldn't want to kill humans, huh? But still, poor fools." But he's just so damned friendly that it rather takes the sting out of it, even as a human Inquisitor... lol.

 

 

 

Sorry, this is BS, and you know it. Regardless of its literal meaning, the elves use it as a slur. Everyone knows that. Just like that Dalish calls Solas "flat-ear." She is being purposely disdainful and superior.

 

Yeah it's been a while since I played through DAO with a City Elf, but from what I remember they don't treat you much better than they do other races. The fact that at least you're an elf is mentioned IIRC, but it doesn't exactly get you bonus points with them. But honestly, I didn't find them particularly welcoming to a Dalish Warden either.