Wouldn't know. I hate human PCs. How bland's a person gotta be to play a human in fantasy game?
Humans aren't associated with as many stereotypes as other races, which is why I tend to find playing a non-human limiting, except if it's a *truly* non-human race, rather than, like elves and dwarves, a human by any other name, only limited by race-specific traits and associations.
Um, how do you get 'racial slurs should be removed from the game' from that post ? All it's saying is that they don't like elves who call humans 'shems'. Like, as characters.
Haha, you're completely right. This is why you don't post as soon as you get up. 
Shemlin=Quick Children.. Elven name for Humans. Its not a racial slur.
It isn't what you say, it's how you say it. After all, "knife ear" is just "sharp ear" and if you look at it objectively, it isn't a racial slur, either... except that it is, because it's not used as a neutral word. It's used to indicate derision and to express superiority over the listener. Like "shemlen".
Technically, modern elves are just as much shemlen - quick children - as humans are, seeing as how their life spans are now identical to that of humans.
I don't consider Shemlin being a racial slur as much as I do the Shem's "knife ears" use for every Elf or the Dalish "flat ears' used for none Dalish elves. The city Elves use of Shem is a put down.
Here's why..Shemlin is old Elven language for humans and we know the Dalish love to speak their language and we know the meaning is "quick children" so,it not racial in that language.
I don't consider Shemlin being a racial slur as much as I do the Shem's "knife ears" use for every Elf or the Dalish "flat ears' used for none Dalish elves. The city Elves use of Shem is a put down.
Here's why..Shemlin is old Elven language for humans and we know the Dalish love to speak their language and we know the meaning is "quick children" so,it not racial in that language.
It's all in the delivery however, the vast majority of the use of Shemlin or Shems is spoken with utter disdain. At least when dealing with the Dalish.
I strongly disliked pre-DA:I Elves because they seemed to be whiny idiots with no self-preservation instinct, who as a people, lived so far up their asses that they managed to lose to a bunch of barbarians despite having a 100% mage population, absurd amount magical know how and artifacts, and the incredible logistical advantage that is the Eluvian network. Either that or both the Dalish and Tevinter where lying out of their asses about how it actually went down.
After DA:I, the Elves as a whole gained some respect from me with the reveal that they had agency. The amount of "Everything is Elvhen" even the Dragonborn(Vashoth/Qunari) are probably test subjects from a primitive Tevinter genetic engineering program that never got past the "Try it on the Elves" stage(either that or Ghilan'nain's Super Soldier Program), the fact that they went from lacking self-preservation towards "2000 years and they still need Mythal to babysit them if they don't want to go extinct", the fact that super mages aside, the Elvhenan was probably running the Spectrum from Old Tevinter, Kirkwall, New Tevinter/Orlais, Nevarra depending on which Evanuris was in charge...
They went from brain dead ****-ups to irresponsible assholes.
Aw crap. I didn't know Warcraft also had "Children of Stone" and Titans.
I'm so disappointed now. Seriously?
The dwarves = stone thing is a not-uncommon fantasy trope, yes. Apparently in Tolkien's writing, "they come from the stone and return to the stone" was an outsiders' misconception, but other settings play it straight to some degree or another.
Humans aren't associated with as many stereotypes as other races, which is why I tend to find playing a non-human limiting, except if it's a *truly* non-human race, rather than, like elves and dwarves, a human by any other name, only limited by race-specific traits and associations.
Agreed. Many fantasy races, but elves and dwarves in particular, have very little thought put into them -- they are basically humans in funny suits instead of truly alien in any way, and pushed into tiny stereotypical boxes at that. And when humans are dominant in a setting (as they usually are) and in the focus of its stories, other species just don't have as much appeal to me because they are too limited and not as connected to what is going on. That "connectedness" is always one of the most important factors in my enjoyment of a story.
For example, one of the few things that might recapture my interest in the DA setting at this point would be a truly dwarf-focused story in which a dwarf PC is required/assumed so the uniquely dwarves things like the Stone-sense can be explored and experienced in depth instead of just being a background gimmick that the NPCs occasionally lecture me about. I want to feel like I'm actually playing a dwarf instead of a really short human. But given the way the Bioware writers have treated their protagonists (as hollow props instead of characters) and the things that supposedly made them "special" (as little more than red herrings that are mostly ignored, or even taken away/destroyed), I don't think we'll ever see that.
Modifié par Korva, 18 décembre 2015 - 05:27 .
It's all in the delivery however, the vast majority of the use of Shemlin or Shems is spoken with utter disdain. At least when dealing with the Dalish.
I agree. What defines the intent of the word, to me, tends to be in the delivery and the attitude of the person using the word.
To put it into two different examples; A person who practically sneers it at a non-elven person rather likely intends for the word to be taken as an insult and applies it as a detegatory but a person who is otherwise polite and welcoming does not necessarily apply it as an detegatory but rather by the old definition of distinguishing between elven and non-elven races even if its meaning now includes modern elves.
I strongly disliked pre-DA:I Elves because they seemed to be whiny idiots with no self-preservation instinct, who as a people, lived so far up their asses that they managed to lose to a bunch of barbarians despite having a 100% mage population, absurd amount magical know how and artifacts, and the incredible logistical advantage that is the Eluvian network. Either that or both the Dalish and Tevinter where lying out of their asses about how it actually went down.
After DA:I, the Elves as a whole gained some respect from me with the reveal that they had agency. The amount of "Everything is Elvhen" even the Dragonborn(Vashoth/Qunari) are probably test subjects from a primitive Tevinter genetic engineering program that never got past the "Try it on the Elves" stage(either that or Ghilan'nain's Super Soldier Program), the fact that they went from lacking self-preservation towards "2000 years and they still need Mythal to babysit them if they don't want to go extinct", the fact that super mages aside, the Elvhenan was probably running the Spectrum from Old Tevinter, Kirkwall, New Tevinter/Orlais, Nevarra depending on which Evanuris was in charge...
They went from brain dead ****-ups to irresponsible assholes.
The elven leaders warred among themselves and pretty much destroyed their own culture long before the barbarians got there. By the time the humans arrived on the scene, there was nothing for them to take but the blame. I'm not entirely sure how that happened. Deliberate obfuscation? The Not Us Phenomenon? The simple fact that everyone who actually knew what was going on was either killed in the fighting or was exiled to the Beyond with the evanuris? Maybe some combination of all of the above.
The Not Us Phenomenon is interesting. Nobody really knows the truth, but they will swear by everything they hold dear that it wasn't their fault. Often, before they're even accused.
...
If the ancient elven empire were as powerful as seems to be suggested then it may have been in the favor of the ancient Tevinter Imperium to take credit for its fall since it could be used to pretend that they were so great a force to be reckoned with that even the elven empire and the evanuris were no match for its power. Enemies considering an invasion or resistance would be discouraged if they considered their means to be less than that of the elven empire.
It could be a rather clever deception especially if they left none or nothing that could compromise their story with substantial evidence.
@Shechinah: Good point. The pre-ancient Tevinters were a fledgling power at best. Claiming responsibility would enhance their street cred. Even if it does remind me of that scene from... I forget the movie... where a foolish king poses with his sword planted heroically in a long-dead dragon. That isn't to say that the Tevinters wouldn't go on to feats of epic lunacy on their own, but they were too primitive and disorganized to pose a serious threat at this point.
I don't consider Shemlin being a racial slur as much as I do the Shem's "knife ears" use for every Elf or the Dalish "flat ears' used for none Dalish elves. The city Elves use of Shem is a put down.
Here's why..Shemlin is old Elven language for humans and we know the Dalish love to speak their language and we know the meaning is "quick children" so,it not racial in that language.
Right, naming the entirety of a separate race as "children" while you are "the people" is not condescending in the sligthest.
I don't consider Shemlin being a racial slur as much as I do the Shem's "knife ears" use for every Elf or the Dalish "flat ears' used for none Dalish elves. The city Elves use of Shem is a put down.
Here's why..Shemlin is old Elven language for humans and we know the Dalish love to speak their language and we know the meaning is "quick children" so,it not racial in that language.
Shemlin might not be, but shemlen sure is a racial slur.
And shemlen is old elven language for anyone who's not immortal as them. Just ask Abelas. That guy gets offended when you compare yourself to him as a Dalish.
Shemlin=Quick Children.. Elven name for Humans. Its not a racial slur.
I'm pretty sure according to the devs it's meant to be a slur by City Elves, but not the Dalish.
Also there's a line in The Masked Empire where Mihris says it translates to "Quick Ones," so I think the idea that it is meant to initialize all humanity is getting hung up on the literal translation.
It's used as one. It's meant to be derogatory.
The only time I heard that was in DA:2 and spoken by Shems..
Other then that its old Elvan.
The only time I heard that was in DA:2 and spoken by Shems..
Other then that its old Elvan.
Elves simply are a Krazy bunch
- While some Dalish and their clans are, not all are closed off to alternative views as indicated by point three below Some clans and Alienage elves do try to advance beyond their current state but are often hindered by circumstances and prejudices.
Dalish clans who tries to settle down might be viewed as a threat by other settlements or have to leave because it might otherwise come to agressive conflict even if they are not the aggressor because the common law of the land favors humans above elves. Depending on which lore is correct, there is a Rivainian settlement of Dalish elves who have settled there permanently because Rivain does not have the same view of the Dalish which make sense since they share certain culture aspects that are frowned upon or persecuted by the Chantry.
- Perhaps you could elaborate on what you mean by "-to their mass exodus because they hear voices"? because I am not sure what you mean by that.
I believe the elves in the Alienage were quarantined because of the supposed plague and the Tevinter mages were allowed to operate there by the ruling regent so there was a reason beyond fear why the elves might be willing to take the Tevinter mages on their word. They were not able to leave the Alienage and there is still a bit of jump between distrusting Tevinter mages on their motives and believing the regent would do something as severe as secretly be killing or selling them into slavery, the former perhaps even more so given that the recent uprising could be used to try and justify an eradication of the Alienage by the regent. Furthermore, the poor living conditions of the Alienage elves likely resulted in some diseases or a sickness that could be mistaken as symptoms of a plague especially with some fear heaped on.
The Alienage elves in Denerim also did not, I believe, view themselves as part of the Dalish culture and did not refer to themselves as part of the People. They had their own culture which was a mix of elven and Andrastian. I believe, they view the Dalish much the same way most human people do as I think Pol says that most people believe the Dalish to be nothing but bands of bandits. I even think some of the elves in Alienage question whether or not the Dalish even exist.
- Could you perhaps elaborate on this since I'm not sure what you mean by "-slavery is in their blood. It is a part of their being"?
As far as I can remember, the reason given for why most clans tend to be in smaller groups is primarily to make themselves less of a target and make it less likely for them to draw attention both when stationary and when on the move. How closely guarded they are also depend upon the individual clan since some clans are directly stated to trade with some human settlements and at least one of the clans were one that had, had bad experiences with humans. The Lavellan clan is stated to have been openly trading with humans and respected them.
Some elves even have nothing against Andraste despite her role as a figurehead for the Chantry and its religion. Interestingly, Interestingly, Velanna is apparently one of these elves despite her near utter dislike for just about everybody regardless of their race and her dislike for the Chantry; "I should hate her, but I don't. I can respect a woman who fights for freedom and justice."
Some clans even go as far as exiling members of their clan for wanting to be agressively hostile towards humans; Velanna and her group were exiled by their clan's Keeper after she wanted to exact revenge on humans who tried to burn their Dalish clan out of the woods.
- I disagree as the meeting of clans known as Arlathvhen that comes about every tenth year is intended towards sharing all knowledge gathered by the different clans as well as conduct trading as well as a means of communicating. I imaging they also note which clans are absence as a means of possibly determining whether or not they've been wiped out.
"Only once a decade or so do the Dalish clans all meet together, and their keepers, the elders and the leaders of the Dalish who are responsible in keeping elven lore and magic alive, will meet together and Exchange knowledge in a meeting called Arlathvhen. (...) During such a time, the clans will recall and record any lore they have relearned such the past meeting, along with reiterating what lore they know already to keep their traditions as accurate and alive as possible. During such time, the clans will exchange relics dating from the two elven nations for safekeeping. The Dalish believe that all the relics they've preserved from the Dales and Arlathan belong to all Dalish; such trades are seen as much of an act of sharing as is a matter of trade, and the same is true even for talented elves. Merill for an example was born in the Alerion clan, but due to her magic talents she was given to the Sabrae clan to be the First of Keeper Marethari as clan Alerion already had a number of gifted elves" - (The Dragon Age Wikipedia)
- This is not necessarily for a lack of trying on the Dalish part as some Dalish Clans have tried to settle down permanently only for it to end badly.
The Sabrae, as an example, is said to have initially settled in the Frostback mountains where their clan flourished until an Avvar clan attacked them. This attack led to the death of more than a dozen Dalish elves including the then Second and Keeper of the clan. When the Sabrae clan made for the lowlands, the Avvar even pursued them and were slain by Sylvans which may have been the work of a Witch of the Wild the Sabrae clan made contact with. - (The World of Thedas, vol 2, p. 164)
But in general, Dalish clans are isolationist and xenophobic. There are exceptions, but not enough to make a difference for the Dalish as a whole. I don't think most of them are hindered by anything except their own attitudes. Briala and Fiona can both rise to the top of their respective "fields" and yet they can still prove to be incompetent or corrupt. So they have opportunity, but most don't take advantage of it. Those that do take advantage seem to screw it up. Kind of like Solas is doing.
I think we can exclude bandit elves from the equation, as that is the case among some humans as well. I don't count that against the People.
I'm not saying they should settle land that is owned by humans. They should settle in places that humans have not discovered or claimed. Or they could work with humans to designate certain segments of land as Dalish owned.
Regarding the mass exodus.
Trespasser epilogue:
Shianni didn't believe any of that. They rejected her words of caution. As for trusting Rendon Howe (who was really in control there), they had every reason to distrust any human in charge after what Vaughn did.
They don't view themselves as part of the Dalish culture because the Dalish are typically exclusive against city elves. But they still cling to whatever they have of the old ways. Like the tree.
Regarding slavery, from Trespasser:
That's foolish. There is strength in numbers. Fewer people make for easier targets, especially if they are nomadic and don't know the landscapes (while bandits in those areas do).
Velanna not hating Andraste is not the same as having nothing against her. Regardless of what she thought, her clan exiled her. So if Velanna is a good example of a good elf, then her clan is a good example of a bad clan.
Exiling her was a bad choice. Doing so would not have made her any less angry, and her lone actions would still have repercussions on the Dalish clans as a whole. The better option would have been to convince her to let go of her hatred, and detain her is she couldn't.
Well I did write that there is almost no interaction between clans. Of course I know of arlathvhen, the once in a decade meeting of Keepers, but that is not frequent or organized enough to make a difference. There should be regular correspondence between them all. Meeting once a decade isn't enough, unless none of them are actually discovering anything new. In which case they need to focus on working together and doing more.
The Avvar attacked them not because they settled there, but because that's just what some Avvar tribes do. When the elves ran, the Avvar followed. That tells you right there it was never about land. The clan was foolish to not build its defenses. They had plenty of time to do it. They were flourishing, but they didn't take the steps necessary to protect what they had.
The only time I heard that was in DA:2 and spoken by Shems..
Other then that its old Elvan.
That's it! Triggered!
I'm pretty sure according to the devs it's meant to be a slur by City Elves, but not the Dalish.
Also there's a line in The Masked Empire where Mihris says it translates to "Quick Ones," so I think the idea that it is meant to initialize all humanity is getting hung up on the literal translation.
Except that Abelas, an actual ancient elf, chooses to refer to a dalish as shemlen when he is looking down at this dalish
And then there is this video.
That dalish struggles to come up the biggest insult he can throws at Hawke and what does he use? Shemlen.
Now, personally, I don't care what people call each other. Knife ear, shemlen, humans and elves are just not meant to be sharing the same living space.
But facts are fact. Every single incarnation of elves uses "shemlen" as a derrogatory term.
Shemlin=Quick Children.. Elven name for Humans. Its not a racial slur.
It is the same as playing as human, no difference at all in which i find it is disappointing. But Dalish Elves are demonized by City Elves anyway, they are even considered just rumors and not a real thing. This is also disappointing as the story goes on and on where everyone know Dalish Elves exist.
I find so many contradictions about this Dalish vs City Elf, if you play as Dalish it is said that one of Dalish duty is to bring City Elf back to the old ways, meaning you have to be welcoming toward City Elves, but it is not so. You find Pol if you play Dalish origin. But if play City Elf origin, the Dalish are not welcoming at all and treat you like ****.
Also if you play as Dalish, when you visit the alienage, it is nothing while you are obviously a Dalish Elf having tattoo on your face, the one who being rumored not exist and savages, no City Elves even aware of that, and there is no option for your to offer them to seek out Dalish camp to return them back to the old way as all Dalish keep prattling on and on
I'm pretty sure according to the devs it's meant to be a slur by City Elves, but not the Dalish.
Also there's a line in The Masked Empire where Mihris says it translates to "Quick Ones," so I think the idea that it is meant to initialize all humanity is getting hung up on the literal translation.
I don't consider Shemlin being a racial slur as much as I do the Shem's "knife ears" use for every Elf or the Dalish "flat ears' used for none Dalish elves. The city Elves use of Shem is a put down.
Here's why..Shemlin is old Elven language for humans and we know the Dalish love to speak their language and we know the meaning is "quick children" so,it not racial in that language.
For me "quick children" sound like "bastard children" or "illegitimate children", because of
i - quick
ii - children
I mean it is like human love to **** and making "quick children"
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