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[Qun00]

 
That's it! Triggered!

Ohh, hey Alistair. Feel like dropping that paperwork and killing some darkspawn?

[Vit246]

Hahaha I think this thread quickly became less of a deconstruction and more of a relentless reaffirmation no matter what. A shame really. 

Modifié par Vit246, 20 décembre 2015 - 05:04 .

[Vit246]

Yepper.

The reason I'm not too find of the Dalish is because 2/3 times we've encountered Dalish clans in the games, they instantly responded with antagonism before my character even opened their mouth. I get that they are suspicious because of things that happen, but it's a little hard to be accepting and sympathetic when your first impression of a people is negative. First impressions DO matter, regardless of the reason behind the behavior. I'm also curious to know how they respond to the city elf in DAO, as I've never played one past the prologue.

For many players of the franchise, their first ever interaction with the Dalish was as a non-elf who was greeted with antagonism by the Dalish in the Brecilian Forest, and then again as the human Hawke in DA2. One of the guards even uses the word "shem" right off the bat. [edit] Actually, I must correct. I've remembered that it's a bit better with "shemlen," but it is said in a negative way.

I thought the reaction in DAI was much better. You can see the suspicion, but the Keeper warns you away cautiously, and not with any undue hostility. Hell, even that guy on the road, when describing some of the weird happenings with the undead says, "Who wouldn't want to kill humans, huh? But still, poor fools." But he's just so damned friendly that it rather takes the sting out of it, even as a human Inquisitor... lol.

 

*UNDER CONSTANT REVISION, APOLOGIES*

You're not wrong and I don't disagree, but people really need to stop holding it against them for being meanies to their poor little fragile protagonist. Try to look at it from their perspective. The Player Protagonist is a stranger regardless. You're not special. They don't know you, they don't owe you any niceties at the beginning if they don't feel like it (you'll need to earn that), and they don't want or need your "good impressions". They do not expect or rely on the goodwill and good faith of others. They've survived without it and alone. They give none unless you prove you are trustworthy. After all, they are risking a lot by allowing you into their midst. Look at what happened when Zevran's clan allowed the Warden in and he wipes out the entire clan with werewolves. Or Morrigan who steals their book. Sometimes they feel the need to blow off steam and vent it at others because thats their defense/coping mechanism for all the shite that happens to them. They live in a harsh world that has been and continues to be a really not nice place for them. They have no homeland because of humans. Their religion and culture is outlawed because of humans. They have to keep moving because humans are everywhere and do not tolerate their squatting. They have no friends or allies they can trust. Not humans. Not City Elves like Devera who seek no kinship and would enslave them. Not Qunari who would impose the Qun on them. All they have is themselves. What they have is all they have left and they are extremely protective of it. Each day is a struggle of survival and they have to keep their guard up and a sharp eye for any potential threat, especially racist humans who don't think twice about killing and raping elves. If they let their guard down, it might mean the irreplaceable loss of everything. So make sure everyone knows not to f**k with them. Its easier and more reliable to be feared than loved.

Modifié par Vit246, 20 décembre 2015 - 03:07 .

[jmadsen]

The elves are the biggest cuckolds in Thedas! **** them fairy motherfuckers.

[Shechinah]

The elves are the biggest cuckolds in Thedas! **** them fairy motherfuckers.

 

Cuckolds? Are you applying that term in the commonly-associated definition of males unwittingly investing parental effort in offspring that are not genetically their own or in some other sense? I do not quite see the connection.
 

[In Exile]

Hahaha I think this thread quickly became less of a deconstruction and more of a relentless reaffirmation no matter what. A shame really. This thread is overwhelmed. It needs someone like lobsel who can act as a one-elf army and restore balance.

I'm not sure the person who is actively supportive of the elves in the Dales committing crimes against humanity and ethnic cleansing is really the person you want.

[Shechinah]

The Avvar attacked them not because they settled there, but because that's just what some Avvar tribes do. When the elves ran, the Avvar followed. That tells you right there it was never about land.

 

While that is actually an indication in some instances, it can also indicate in other instances that the Avvar were thinking the following; "Leaving is good, never coming back is better" and applied that aggressively hence why they pursued the Dalish as far down as the lowlands and did not cease until they ceased to be.

 

The clan was foolish to not build its defenses. They had plenty of time to do it. They were flourishing, but they didn't take the steps necessary to protect what they had.

 

Admittedly, I may have missed that bit of information but I do not believe the codex entry stated whether or not the Sabrae clan had taken precautions by building defensive measures so for all we know, they did not and for all we know, they did and it was simply insufficent against the Avvar who had more experienced in laying siege to settlements.  

[Vit246]

I'm not sure the person who is actively supportive of the elves in the Dales committing crimes against humanity and ethnic cleansing is really the person you want.

 

I honestly do not recall (though it might be true, long time ago), but I do recall his ability to articulate on elves better than any other.

[Shechinah]

1. But in general, Dalish clans are isolationist and xenophobic. There are exceptions, but not enough to make a difference for the Dalish as a whole. I don't think most of them are hindered by anything except their own attitudes. Briala and Fiona can both rise to the top of their respective "fields" and yet they can still prove to be incompetent or corrupt. So they have opportunity, but most don't take advantage of it. Those that do take advantage seem to screw it up. Kind of like Solas is doing.

 

How about Lanaya, the First and later potentially the Keeper of the Dalish clan encountered near the Brecillian Forest? She became the First to the Keeper despite being the only one of the candidates for the position that had not been born into the clan but managed to overcome the prejudices set against her and win the trust of the clan completely. If Zathrian dies but the clan lives then she'll be the one to lead the Dalish in the Battle of Denerim and according to epilogue;

 

"The new keeper, Lanaya, was respected both amongst the Dalish as well as in the Ferelden court. She was a voice of reason, and other Dalish clans would turn to her to help resolve disputes with human folk." 

 

2. I'm not saying they should settle land that is owned by humans. They should settle in places that humans have not discovered or claimed. Or they could work with humans to designate certain segments of land as Dalish owned.

 

Can you give an example of land that has not been settled by humans or other races and that does not lie in proximity to humans or other races?

 

3. They don't view themselves as part of the Dalish culture because the Dalish are typically exclusive against city elves. But they still cling to whatever they have of the old ways. Like the tree.

 

According to the Wikipedia, this is based on a conversation with Soris during the City Elf Origin so this applies to the Denerim Alienage; 

 

"In return, their urban kin view the Dalish as an enigmatic myth: in the same light humans do, as bandits or heathens, or else as noble wood elves or even living legends. Few know enough if the Dalish to be certain of the truth of their nomadic kin"

 

I believe, however, that like how each Dalish clan can be different from each other so can each Alienage be different from each other since the Kirkwall Alienage seemed to have a respect for the Dalish as indicated by how they recieved Marethari though that could be based on them falling into the latter category of believing them to be noble wood elves or even living legends but it could also be that they had met Dalish elves who set a good enough example.

 

I believe the city elves' mixed culture developed from how they were not allowed to worship their own gods or practice their own culture and had to take up the Andrastian faith as per the surrender treaty following the fall of the Dales;

 

"The Dales were claimed by the Orlesians, who uprooted elven settlements and forbade the worship of the elven gods. Elves who accepted the Chantry's offered truce were required to accept the Maker and live in slums, known as the alienages, within human settlements, becoming the city elves."

 

I believe that over time, they recieved more lenience in this regard and so interspursed their culture with more visible signs of their old culture hence the Vhenandahl or "tree of the People" as it is otherwise called, that are sometimes found in alienages though not in all. Hahren, the title bestowed to the leader(s) or administer(s) of the Alienage, means elder in the elven language.

 

Interestingly, the Alienage elves treat the tree differently like how the Kirkwall alienage lit candles around while the Val Royeaux elves decorate theirs with ribbons and small pieces of brightly-colored cloth.   

 

4. Regarding slavery, from Trespasser: Solas states that the ancient elves were slaves, and their masters marked their faces to identify them as property to whatever elvhen "god". Solas also states in Trespasser than he freed his brethren from being slaves to the evanuris. So my thought on this is that slavery was ingrained into their core being long ago, which is why they generally have this innate propensity toward servitude.

 

In my opinion, even if that were applicable it would be to the city elves and it would be societally ingrained in them by modern norms, not by ancient. It would be a conditioning from how most city elves are unable to live outside the slums of the Alienage and how they are often unable to prosper even with hard-work and luck because their status of bottom citizens preempts them from the basic rights that discourages people burning down their homes solely based on their race.

 

I disgaree that elves have an innate propensity towards servitude as even in Tevinter where the servitude would be ingrained into them from birth, slaves still rise up in rebellions and even if those rebellions are quickly put down, they still try which shows a defiance that goes against the idea of an natural inclination.

 

5. That's foolish. There is strength in numbers. Fewer people make for easier targets, especially if they are nomadic and don't know the landscapes (while bandits in those areas do).

 

Fewer people also means easier movement and less likely to draw the eye of a ruling power that might worry about a group of elves of that size wandering the land even if it is not near the ruling power's settlements. A smaller group might be tolerated but a larger group would likely not be.

 

Allow me to pose a scenario; group of Templars have an easier time tracking down a Dalish clan because its size made the clan slower and more visible. The Templars demand that the mages of the clan be turned over and the clan refuses.  The Templars insist and it escalates into violence resulting in dead Templars. A second but larger group of templars are dispatched to deal with the hostile group of Dalish. Alternatively, the Templars leave but return with greater numbers.

 

6. Velanna not hating Andraste is not the same as having nothing against her. Regardless of what she thought, her clan exiled her. So if Velanna is a good example of a good elf, then her clan is a good example of a bad clan.

 

I do not consider Velanna an example of a good elf as I do not even consider her an example of a good or even decent person.

 

7. Exiling her was a bad choice. Doing so would not have made her any less angry, and her lone actions would still have repercussions on the Dalish clans as a whole.

 

I agree and disagee: I agree that her lone actions would still have repercussions on the Dalish clans as a whole but I disagree because I believe that exiling her might have been a good decision as far as ensuring her actions would place less of an immediate danger on the clan. If Velanna and her group had stayed, she might have been able to influence more of the elves especially the impressionable and the emotionally affected and turn them to her vengeance. 

 

Even if nothing had ever come of their talk, it could still influence people. Velanna were also the First to the Keeper and even the Keeper had left instructions to not allow the mantle to pass to Velanna, the clan might do so either because a large enough number were followers of her or out of need for a new Keeper.

 

If Velanna and her group had been allowed to stay in the clan but carried out their acts of vengeance, perhaps even without the knowledge of the clan or its Keeper, and returned then the clan was in danger of humans hunting them down for revenge and enacting said revenge on the clan as a whole.  

 

 

8. The better option would have been to convince her to let go of her hatred, and detain her is she couldn't.

 

Detain her how? They could not stay in the area so that would mean diverging resources and losing manpower to people having to keep a watch over her and her group while on the move. If they left them behind and detained somewhere that would mean they'd likely be condemning them to starving to death or be at the mercy of whoever came across them or they might escape if left means rendering the entire detainment pointless especially since Velanna was a mage. Sentencing Velanna and her group to death would mean executing a group of people for something they had not even done yet and might not even do. This is not even accounting for how this might affect the clan on a social level since they are close to every member of the clan.     

 

As a note: you do not need to worry about spoilers from Trespasser and such since these are the General Discussion (Spoilers) forum so spoil away on the game
 

[Shechinah]

I do so much love discussing topics because there are so many different viewpoints and lore-related material drawn into the discussions. The civility is wonderful as well 

[shortbreadspacer]

You're not wrong and I don't disagree, but people need to stop holding this against them. Try to look at it from their perspective. The Player Protagonist is a stranger regardless. You're not special. They don't know you, they don't owe you any niceties at the beginning if they don't feel like it, and they don't want or need your "good impressions". They do not expect or rely on goodwill. They've survived without it and alone. Sometimes they feel the need to blow off steam and vent it at others because thats their defense/coping mechanism. They live in a harsh world that has been and continues to be a really not nice place for them. They have no homeland because of humans. Their religion and culture is outlawed because of humans. They have to keep moving because humans are everywhere and do not tolerate the suqatting. They have no friends or allies they can trust. Not humans. Not City Elves like Devera who seek no kinship and would enslave them. Not Qunari who would impose the Qun on them. All they have is themselves. What they have is all they have left and they are extremely protective of it. Each day is a struggle of survival and they have to keep their guard up and a sharp eye for any potential threat, especially racist humans who don't think twice about harming elves. And if they let their guard down, it might mean their end.

I love this point, but it also reinforces the "role playing" aspect of the games. You can choose to be understanding and patient; like you say, they don't owe you any niceties, or you can be put off by it, not give a **** about their struggles and react aggressively. 

[In Exile]

You're not wrong and I don't disagree, but people really need to stop holding it against them for being meanies to their poor little fragile protagonist. Try to look at it from their perspective. The Player Protagonist is a stranger regardless. You're not special. They don't know you, they don't owe you any niceties at the beginning if they don't feel like it, and they don't want or need your "good impressions". They do not expect or rely on goodwill. They've survived without it and alone. Sometimes they feel the need to blow off steam and vent it at others because thats their defense/coping mechanism for all the shite thats happened to them. They live in a harsh world that has been and continues to be a really not nice place for them. They have no homeland because of humans. Their religion and culture is outlawed because of humans. They have to keep moving because humans are everywhere and do not tolerate their squatting. They have no friends or allies they can trust. Not humans. Not City Elves like Devera who seek no kinship and would enslave them. Not Qunari who would impose the Qun on them. All they have is themselves. What they have is all they have left and they are extremely protective of it. Each day is a struggle of survival and they have to keep their guard up and a sharp eye for any potential threat, especially racist humans who don't think twice about harming elves. And if they let their guard down, it might mean the irreplaceable loss of everything.

Well, except it's not "because humans". That's what makes it racist. It's because of Orlais. Arguably because of the Chantry. Tevinter is a wholly separate system and form of oppression. When you switch from " These countries and cultures oppress us" to "this race oppresses" us is when you switch to racism.

The Qunari also actively work to eradicate their culture. Lots of peasants fear them. But to reduce this to "humans" is what makes the Dalish come across xenophobic.

Their hostility is part of the problem. They're in a prejudiced work that makes it hard for them to survive. But we see from the DAI content that the Dalish - as in the Dales - was also isolationist and hostile, despite the efforts of those like Ameridan. That's also a source of issues for them. The total lack of alliances and allies - and the general disinterest in having them - is a big part of the plight of the modern elves. At least from the standpoint of the Dalish.

The CEs are in a totally different boat. They're faced with all the issues poor humans face with an extra layer of pure racism. That's a totally different situation.

[nightscrawl]

You're not wrong and I don't disagree, but people really need to stop holding it against them for being meanies to their poor little fragile protagonist. Try to look at it from their perspective. The Player Protagonist is a stranger regardless. You're not special. They don't know you, they don't owe you any niceties at the beginning if they don't feel like it, and they don't want or need your "good impressions". They do not expect or rely on goodwill. They've survived without it and alone. Sometimes they feel the need to blow off steam and vent it at others because thats their defense/coping mechanism for all the shite that happens to them. They live in a harsh world that has been and continues to be a really not nice place for them. They have no homeland because of humans. Their religion and culture is outlawed because of humans. They have to keep moving because humans are everywhere and do not tolerate their squatting. They have no friends or allies they can trust. Not humans. Not City Elves like Devera who seek no kinship and would enslave them. Not Qunari who would impose the Qun on them. All they have is themselves. What they have is all they have left and they are extremely protective of it. Each day is a struggle of survival and they have to keep their guard up and a sharp eye for any potential threat, especially racist humans who don't think twice about harming elves. Let everyone know they are not to be f**ked around with. If they let their guard down, it might mean the irreplaceable loss of everything.

This was actually in my first paragraph that you quoted. "I get that they are suspicious because of things that happen, but it's a little hard to be accepting and sympathetic when your first impression of a people is negative."

I don't expect all NPCs, or people in general, to be welcoming and open, and I in fact stated that I liked how it was done in DAI.

I'm sorry, but I do NOT believe that history gives them, OR ANYONE, the right to be immediate dicks to a complete stranger. You can be stern and unwelcoming without also being a dick.

[Dean_the_Young]

I honestly do not recall (though it might be true, long time ago), but I do recall his ability to articulate on elves better than any other.

 

Not really. Aside from a consistent inability to actually acknowedge other people's points without strawmanning, he had a profound tendency to ignore the actual viewpoints of elves being discussed. Big proponent of pan-elven identity politics, for example, on elves who really aren't. Which is, well, pretty much every elf we've met.

 

You could give him points for grammer, but articulation? This is the guy who necroed a three-month dead threat to have the last word in an argument... and failed to actually address the subject he was responding to. Not the guy you want on your side of a debate team, unless you need a wall.

[LOLandStuff]

I honestly do not recall (though it might be true, long time ago), but I do recall his ability to articulate on elves better than any other.

 

There is a secret dark ritual to summoning Lobsel, if you're interested. Just say some bad things about Merrill and he'll immediately show up to remind everyone of her dry wit and how culture shocked she is.

[Sports72Xtrm]

Well, except it's not "because humans". That's what makes it racist. It's because of Orlais. Arguably because of the Chantry. Tevinter is a wholly separate system and form of oppression. When you switch from " These countries and cultures oppress us" to "this race oppresses" us is when you switch to racism.

The Qunari also actively work to eradicate their culture. Lots of peasants fear them. But to reduce this to "humans" is what makes the Dalish come across xenophobic.

Their hostility is part of the problem. They're in a prejudiced work that makes it hard for them to survive. But we see from the DAI content that the Dalish - as in the Dales - was also isolationist and hostile, despite the efforts of those like Ameridan. That's also a source of issues for them. The total lack of alliances and allies - and the general disinterest in having them - is a big part of the plight of the modern elves. At least from the standpoint of the Dalish.

The CEs are in a totally different boat. They're faced with all the issues poor humans face with an extra layer of pure racism. That's a totally different situation.

It's not that simple. To preserve what they want to preserve, which is their Dalish culture and supposedly an elven society equal to those of humans, they have to be wary. There's mistreating humans, and there is being wary of them. Fact is, humans are a different species from elves. Humans despite their cultural differences, are at least united biologically and by their faith in the Chant. Humans are considered closer and more favored by the "Maker" than the other heathen "alien" races. Their agendas rarely coincide with accepting differences and thus Dalish interests are rarely coinciding with human interests.

 

Elves are the "aliens", generally propogated as "lesser" than humans. For example, it's like Ashley from mass effect in exposition of views of a human relationship with a "dog"- you can love your dog but they aren't humans and if they're backs are against the wall they'll abandon the dog or as she phrases it, "sick it on the bear so they [humans] can escape." You can already see it when Briala in her campaign against Celene scapegoats one of her elven spies in Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts. At some point, it stops being about empowering the elven people and more about empowering a person who just happens to be elven. Elves are considered as "dogs" to humans. And humans already outnumber and overpower elves ten fold. If anyone should be striving to show goodwill, it's the humans to the elves. They own all the property and enforce it with superior military. They breed like crazy and even breed with any race to breed more humans. And they control the most influential religion, the Chantry, which unless Leliana is Divine, haven't even acknowledged elven accomplishments or invited them in anyway as equals.

 

So it's not mistreating, it's being justifiably wary. To be so accepting is to risk diminishing the elven society that they strive to create.

[Dean_the_Young]

It's not that simple. To preserve what they want to preserve, which is their Dalish culture and supposedly an elven society equal to those of humans, they have to be wary. There's mistreating humans, and there is being wary of them. Fact is, humans are a different species from elves. Humans despite their cultural differences, are at least united biologically and by their faith in the Chant. Humans are considered closer and more favored by the "Maker" than the other heathen "alien" races. Their agendas rarely coincide with accepting differences and thus Dalish interests are rarely coinciding with human interests.

 

Elves are the "aliens", generally propogated as "lesser" than humans. For example, it's like Ashley from mass effect in exposition of views of a human relationship with a "dog"- you can love your dog but they aren't humans and if they're backs are against the wall they'll abandon the dog or as she phrases it, "sick it on the bear so they [humans] can escape." You can already see it when Briala in her campaign against Celene scapegoats one of her elven spies in Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts. At some point, it stops being about empowering the elven people and more about empowering a person who just happens to be elven. Elves are considered as "dogs" to humans. And humans already outnumber and overpower elves ten fold. If anyone should be striving to show goodwill, it's the humans to the elves. They own all the property and enforce it with superior military. They breed like crazy and even breed with any race to breed more humans. And they control the most influential religion, the Chantry, which unless Leliana is Divine, haven't even acknowledged elven accomplishments or invited them in anyway as equals.

 

So it's not mistreating, it's being justifiably wary. To be so accepting is to risk diminishing the elven society that they strive to create.

 

No, it's mistreating.

 

It's also a poor reading of the Ashley metaphor from ME. In Mass Effect, xenonationalism is a thing- it is how the political structure of the galaxy is organized, because the Council system is organized by each species having one representative government. One race, one vote.

 

This does not exist in Dragon Age. Humanity is not united by race, and haven't been since longer than the Dalish have existed by that name. The humans are not united by the Chant to any practical political objective, let alone one targetted at the heathen elves. The Chantry isn't even united on any particular point against the heathen elves.

 

Humans are not united or unified politically, culturally, or ideologically- let alone against the elves. Most humans were not even alive during the great grievances the elves nurse. Acting as if the humans are all collectively culpable for acts done before they were even born, upto and including xenophobic prejudice, is not only objectively wrong, it is unjust and unfair.

 

Which would be crux of what mistreatment is. Treating someone badly, cruely, or unfairly.

[Sports72Xtrm]

No, it's mistreating.

 

It's also a poor reading of the Ashley metaphor from ME. In Mass Effect, xenonationalism is a thing- it is how the political structure of the galaxy is organized, because the Council system is organized by each species having one representative government. One race, one vote.

 

This does not exist in Dragon Age. Humanity is not united by race, and haven't been since longer than the Dalish have existed by that name. The humans are not united by the Chant to any practical political objective, let alone one targetted at the heathen elves. The Chantry isn't even united on any particular point against the heathen elves.

 

Humans are not united or unified politically, culturally, or ideologically- let alone against the elves. Most humans were not even alive during the great grievances the elves nurse. Acting as if the humans are all collectively culpable for acts done before they were even born, upto and including xenophobic prejudice, is not only objectively wrong, it is unjust and unfair.

 

Which would be crux of what mistreatment is. Treating someone badly, cruely, or unfairly.

BS. Elves are specifically targeted by humans: Chantry rose in rebellion to protest including them into the priesthood, Ferelden forbids elves from defending themselves against human nobles or any human who would go into their Alienage to "have fun", and in Orlais it's expected for elves to be treated as slaves, to rape and kill. If anyone is mistreated, it's the elves, and they are secluded in elven ghettos because they aren't welcomed anywhere else. Humans have megalomaniacal tendencies to persecute elves because they are weak and diaspora. I don't know how people can spin the elves' persecution into humans are the mistreated ones.

[Halfdan The Menace]

In real-life lore, elves were first thought of as ambivalent beings with magical powers, but later they became more and more sinister, harming humans and livestock in various ways. In Norway there were Huldras, which are seen as beautiful women who lure human men into marrying them and when they do so they will lose the hollow back and tail. It's said that if the elf fiancée sees her back before marriage he will see her for she truly is, ugly and if he refuses to marry her, she will simply kill him, but if he goes through with the marriage she will turn human and she will kill him anyway (fatality?). The Danish elves even more interesting, if one decided to kidnap a human, they be used for sex and those who had sex with the Elves would often become mentally insane.

 

 

I dislike all kind of elves, Middle-earth elves included, except Tauriel mainly due to her chemistry/romantic bond with Killi the tall dwarf.

[Illegitimus]

 

 

Humans are not united or unified politically, culturally, or ideologically- let alone against the elves. 

 

 

Yes they are.  Oh humans have a lot of internal divisions, but they are in agreement that elves (and mages except for Tevinter) are suspect and need to be restricted and stamped on when they get uppity.  

[Han Shot First]

Wouldn't know. I hate human PCs. How bland's a person gotta be to play a human in fantasy game?

 

Posts like this one are the biggest reason. It is also fairly typical.

 

Some people hate mages for similar reasons. 

[prosthetic soul]

In real-life lore, elves were first thought of as ambivalent beings with magical powers, but later they became more and more sinister, harming humans and livestock in various ways. In Norway there were Huldras, which are seen as beautiful women who lure human men into marrying them and when they do so they will lose the hollow back and tail. It's said that if the elf fiancée sees her back before marriage he will see her for she truly is, ugly and if he refuses to marry her, she will simply kill him, but if he goes through with the marriage she will turn human and she will kill him anyway (fatality?). The Danish elves even more interesting, if one decided to kidnap a human, they be used for sex and those who had sex with the Elves would often become mentally insane.

 

 

I dislike all kind of elves, Middle-earth elves included, except Tauriel mainly due to her chemistry/romantic bond with Killi the tall dwarf.

Norway officially sucks at this lore thing.  What's the bloody point if they kill you no matter what?  0/10, would not mindlessly read up on on Wikipedia. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Yes they are.  Oh humans have a lot of internal divisions, but they are in agreement that elves (and mages except for Tevinter) are suspect and need to be restricted and stamped on when they get uppity.  

 

Except, you know, the lack of great pan-national anti-elf coalitions in which the humans put aside their differences for the purpose of uniting to stamp down on those upity elves.

 

That didn't even happen in the fall of the Dales, which we know was a rather mundane national conflict. We don't even see 'stamping the uppity' as a reason for the anti-elf abuses that we know about in the Dragon Age. In DAO, Loghain didn't sell the alienage elves as slaves because he thought them uppity, or even because he hated them- he did it because he needed money and they were convenient. In DA2, Aveline and the city guard ignorred rape reports because of other, more prominent, political tensions, not racism. Even in The Masked Empire, Celine's crackdown on the riot was political maneuvering vis-a-vis the Chantry and it's approach to the Mage-Templar crisis, not any animus or point about the elves themselves.

 

In all these cases, no other Chantry nation supported the policy as part of some pan-human/anti-elf consensus. Just like no inernational effort rallies against those that give concessions or reforms to the elves either. Orlesian elf policy is an Orlesian issue. Ferelden elves are a Ferelden issue. No one supported, and no one protested, because no one cared.

 

This is the damning little secret of the Dalish and the pan-race conflict enthusiasts: the elves as politically irrelevant. The elves are collectively, and the Dalish especially, far from the minds and concerns of the humans and their policy makers. The humans are divided, and still the elves aren't relevant enough to be worried about. The Kingdoms have internal political disputes and international rivalries to handle. The Chantry cares far more of the Mage issue. And everyone cares far, far more about the Qunari. Even the return of Solas is a threat centered around a person, not a mass movement.

 

 

Casting the humans as a monolithic bugaboo makes for a dramatic contest, but the truth is there is no contest. The humans would have to care- but what we see in the Dragon Age is systemic apathy, not antipathy.

[Dean_the_Young]

BS. Elves are specifically targeted by humans: Chantry rose in rebellion to protest including them into the priesthood, Ferelden forbids elves from defending themselves against human nobles or any human who would go into their Alienage to "have fun", and in Orlais it's expected for elves to be treated as slaves, to rape and kill.

 

It's (not) impressive how many different points you cram into a single overall point. Makes it hard to reply. In order-

 

-Leliana's rebellion has as much to do with everything else about her being, well, Divine Leliana. She makes radical changes to the Chantry, and doctrine, far beyond 'just' the elves. Saying that the Chantry rose in rebellion (it didn't) over a single issue ignores all the other issues and contexts of a time where every divine faces rebellion, no matter their policy on elves.

 

Ferelden has an old law on the books. This is bad. What we don't see is any sort of vigerous enforcement of this law. The City Elf's origin is exception because the action is notable, rather than routine.

 

In Orlais, everyone is a 'slave' to the Chevaliers to rape and kill. They have that privilege over human peasants too, and they use it.

 

 

 

If anyone is mistreated, it's the elves, and they are secluded in elven ghettos because they aren't welcomed anywhere else.

 

 

And because they don't want to leave anywhere else. The ones that wish to leave for the Dalish are hardly locked in, for example.

 

(Well, if we used less absurd absolutes then we'd point out that not elves don't want to go anywhere else just as not all humans wouldn't welcome elves. But you chose the tenor.)

 

 

You also imply that two groups can't mutually mistreat eachother.

 

You also also are conflating two distinct groups of elves. I suggest you clarify whether you refer to Dalish or City elves, as the two groups have separate contexts, separate identities, and separate grievances.

 

 

 

Humans have megalomaniacal tendencies to persecute elves because they are weak and diaspora.

 

 

Humans have a hive mind across the centuries?

 

Or is this a collective guilt on people who had no participation or involvement in such? If so, do we get to point out the period of history in which, according to Mythal's Temple, Elven Goddess Adruinel (whatever the spelling) hunted humans for sport?

 

And how about the ancient elven society? Nothing megalomaniacal there?

 

 

I don't know how people can spin the elves' persecution into humans are the mistreated ones.

 

 

Possibly because you don't know how people can be a bunch of bastards all at fault for how things get screwed up, even if one group screwed up more and so gets screwed harder.

[Illegitimus]

Except, you know, the lack of great pan-national anti-elf coalitions in which the humans put aside their differences for the purpose of uniting to stamp down on those upity elves.

 

 

Do they need them?  

 

 

 

That didn't even happen in the fall of the Dales, which we know was a rather mundane national conflict.

 

Yeah it did.  That was an Exalted March in which an alliance of humans from everywhere the Chantry had influence contributed.  

 

 In DAO, Loghain didn't sell the alienage elves as slaves because he thought them uppity, or even because he hated them- 

 

No he sold them because they were the only Ferelden subjects no human cared about enough for it to matter.  Although that they had been restless about their recent abuse probably made the decision easier.  

 

 

In DA2, Aveline and the city guard ignorred rape reports because of other, more prominent, political tensions, not racism. Even in The Masked Empire, Celine's crackdown on the riot was political maneuvering vis-a-vis the Chantry and it's approach to the Mage-Templar crisis, not any animus or point about the elves themselves.

 

Celine cracked down on them because she'd been publically accused of being sympathetic to them.  

 

 

 

Casting the humans as a monolithic bugaboo makes for a dramatic contest, but the truth is there is no contest. The humans would have to care- but what we see in the Dragon Age is systemic apathy, not antipathy.

 

 The apathy of humans extends only so far as elves remain in their subordinate place.