757 réponses à ce sujet

[ComedicSociopathy]

Yes they are.  Oh humans have a lot of internal divisions, but they are in agreement that elves (and mages except for Tevinter) are suspect and need to be restricted and stamped on when they get uppity.  

 

You forget Rivain, which has a positive relationship with both the Dalish and mages.

 

Furthermore, are you really talking about humanity as a whole wanting to stomp out elves or are you just describing the actions of the Chantry and the nobility, which the overwhelming population of humans, the common folk, has no control over and are essentially forced to do whatever they dictate?

 

We see plenty of examples of humans of not being racist towards elves throughout the franchise, so I don't think it's fair to say that all of humanity wants elves stomped out. 

[ComedicSociopathy]

The apathy of humans extends only so far as elves remain in their subordinate place.  

 

That's the nobility. When Briala starts tearing down alienages it's the nobles of Orlais that throw a hissfit. Not humans as a whole. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Do they need them?  

 

If you intend to argue that there's a great unified consensus against the elves on the basis of being uppity, it would behoove you to show any great unified consensus against the elves on the basis of being uppity.

 

And accusation alone is not proof.

 

 

Yeah it did.  That was an Exalted March in which an alliance of humans from everywhere the Chantry had influence contributed.  

 

 

Except, you know, the kingdoms that didn't send national forces.

 

Which was all of them.

 

DAI's development of the Exalted March of the Dales revealed to us that it wasn't an international coalition- it was an Orlesian effort, with whatever volunteers they could get. The Chantry was a theological covering for a war that had already been going on for some time.

 

Moreover, the Fall of the Dales was not a racial grudge match on the basis of the elves being uppity and not appropriate submissive. The Fall of the Dales was the sacking of an independent and long-recognized kingdom for the crimes of being intolerable after trying (and failing) to conquer Orlais.

 

The Exalted March of the Dales was the conquest of the elves- not a coalition to suppress them for rising above their station. Before the Dales started the war, the humans had respected their independence and sovereignity.

 

 

No he sold them because they were the only Ferelden subjects no human cared about enough for it to matter.  Although that they had been restless about their recent abuse probably made the decision easier.  

 

 

Except that people do care- which is why he had to do it secretly, and why revealing Loghain's slave trading gets significant support at the Landsmeet.

 

And his motivation was still not 'dey be uppity.' We get access to Loghain's perspective at many points across the series, some of them inside his own viewpoint, and none of them indicate Loghain particularly cares about elves one way or the other.
 

 

Celine cracked down on them because she'd been publically accused of being sympathetic to them.  

 

 

Not quite right. Celine cracked down on them because she needed to make a display of strength, for two reasons: Gaspard's conspiracy, and the Divine.

 

Before her crackdown, Celine tried to prompt the Divine into taking a more active and less hands-off role in the mage-templar grudge match. The Divine's response amounted to 'you first,' pointing at the long-simmering unrest which Celine had been tolerated in hopes of ending it by espionage.

 

Celene's decision was to take a less-preferred action (a crack down) in order to resolve a problem (the uprising), garner political support (Gaspard), and press the Divine into action.

 

It was not 'dem elves be uppity.' Celene's desired option was a less bloody one, and she was pressed out of it by non-racial politics.
 

 

 

 The apathy of humans extends only so far as elves remain in their subordinate place.  

 

 

Here's the thing- the elves don't want to change that. Either of the two groups.

 

The Dalish elves already see themselves as free and independent. They're already outside the system, and even if they spend their lives on the run they don't see themselves as subordinate.

 

The City Elves, on the other hand, aren't interested in pan-elven identity politics. They've been nationalized, in effect, and most of them want integration into the system- not to escape it.

 

Neither elven group wants to try and rule the humans- which is good for them, because neither elven group has the means for it. Solas's burn-the-world is the best any of them get, and they'll be burned to.

 

Humans can be apathetic for three reasons- because the humans have a secure power base, because the elves are weak, and because holy **** the Qunari are a lot scarier than the elves. The elves could try and destabilize the humans... but they're still going to be weak, and still far weaker than the Qunari.

[Illegitimus]

Yo

 

Furthermore, are you really talking about humanity as a whole 

 

No.  I'm not.  I'm talking about a majority of humans but I'm not talking about every single human being thinking and acting in unison with no variation.  

[Shadow Quickpaw]

My biggest pet peeve came when I started reading the memorial stones in the Exalted Plains. Now let me first be clear: I would have no problem if the Chantry wanted to bring up crimes the elves committed in the past (having a different culture/belief is not a crime), referenced atrocities committed by the elves as a nation, or were actually honest in the contributions the elves made (Like Ameridan and the Cantacle of Shartan)

 

But actually read those stones: "They had committed the greatest sin: Turning away from the Maker." Ergo, apostasy. THAT is what the exclusively human Chantry is the most upset about. Not the innocent people elves had killed (accident or not), not the villages pillaged by the Dalish people during the Exalted March against them (which they did do, by the way). The fear and hatred of elves by the majority of Andrastian humans is informed by superstition and paranoia (mixed with some nationalistic pride) and not actual facts.

 

Josephine defended the Chantry by calling it "the source of many shared customs." I would go further in that it also is the source of most (if not all) shared hatreds. Like the fear of mages, the mistrust between elves and humans can be mitigated by education. The problem is, (like the real life roman catholic church) the educational system of most human societies is the Chantry, which categorically lies, refuses to admit wrongdoing, and in general spreads unwarranted fear and paranoia.

 

We have examples of modern and close-to-modern Dalish clans offering to put aside their differences in order to work with humans towards a common goal/enemy. Not so with humans (that I'm aware of; feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

 

The incident at Red Crossing was a ****-up on both sides, but thus far (if you give that info to Hawen) only the Dalish have been willing to accept that as a true part of their history, and attempted to make amends. Not so the Chantry.

[Kimarous]

As a general point, I'm on the pro-elf side of the fence... that is, positive towards elves as a general concept. Often elves are a preferred race of mine for various reasons - the magically inclined ones, the snazzier design themes, or just the usual "lithe (but preferably not TOO lithe *cough*Inquisition*cough*) with pointy ears" physique. They just generally appeal to me more than other races, if mainly for aesthetic reasons.

 

With that said, I have some compunctions with the elven fandom - more so than the actual elves in DA - though that can more be chalked up to one too many "Read More" Dragon Age Confessions on Tumblr. That's all I'm going to say on the matter, since my policy with the "elves vs other races with regards to DA" argument is "don't get involved." It's worked out well so far.

 

As for the "humans are boring" mentality, I've more or less subscribed to that notion for a lot of multi-race settings... though I think "boring" isn't the right word for it. More... "standard." Humans tend to be the "default" race, and I have an aversion to playing "default." For example, Skyrim - I'm fine playing a Breton or Redguard, but playing a Nord in the homeland of the Nords? It feels like I'm "supposed" to pick them, and I'd rather see what happens when I don't... like it will be more "interesting" that way.

 

Though to be perfectly honest, I'm more partial to the "half-elf" mix  - more familiar and grounded while still having that "otherworldly" quality. To use an indirect example, the Sophons of "Endless Space" are the closest to "elves" in that setting, and while I do prefer them more than the regular human faction, I ultimately favour the balance of the human-Sophon blend of the "Pilgrims". As a more traditional pick, my main character in Skyrim is the aforementioned Breton race - humans with elven ancestry and a greater affinity with magic.

 

TL;DR - I have nothing against pretty boys, I like shiny things, and I like magic. Consequently, elves don't bother me.

[berelinde]

As a general point, I'm on the pro-elf side of the fence... that is, positive towards elves as a general concept. Often elves are a preferred race of mine for various reasons - the magically inclined ones, the snazzier design themes, or just the usual "lithe (but preferably not TOO lithe *cough*Inquisition*cough*) with pointy ears" physique. They just generally appeal to me more than other races, if mainly for aesthetic reasons.

 

With that said, I have some compunctions with the elven fandom - more so than the actual elves in DA - though that can more be chalked up to one too many "Read More" Dragon Age Confessions on Tumblr. That's all I'm going to say on the matter, since my policy with the "elves vs other races with regards to DA" argument is "don't get involved." It's worked out well so far.

 

As for the "humans are boring" mentality, I've more or less subscribed to that notion for a lot of multi-race settings... though I think "boring" isn't the right word for it. More... "standard." Humans tend to be the "default" race, and I have an aversion to playing "default." For example, Skyrim - I'm fine playing a Breton or Redguard, but playing a Nord in the homeland of the Nords? It feels like I'm "supposed" to pick them, and I'd rather see what happens when I don't... like it will be more "interesting" that way.

 

Though to be perfectly honest, I'm more partial to the "half-elf" mix  - more familiar and grounded while still having that "otherworldly" quality. To use an indirect example, the Sophons of "Endless Space" are the closest to "elves" in that setting, and while I do prefer them more than the regular human faction, I ultimately favour the balance of the human-Sophon blend of the "Pilgrims". As a more traditional pick, my main character in Skyrim is the aforementioned Breton race - humans with elven ancestry and a greater affinity with magic.

 

TL;DR - I have nothing against pretty boys, I like shiny things, and I like magic. Consequently, elves don't bother me.

There's nothing wrong with having a preference for lithe physiques, and props to you for expressing your preference without maligning other races. When it comes down to it, that's really the cause of the problem for a lot of people. And you have to admit, "I like the aesthetics" is a lot easier for most people to get their heads around than "My choices are superior." Or maybe I'm biased because my own favorite - the oft-dismissed human - is based on a combination of aesthetics (tall, well-muscled but not too bulky, easy to make an attractive character in the CC), versatility (humans can be any class, and look good doing it), and variety (I don't feel locked into tropish or cliched personalities). I also have a bit of an aversion to things that are exotic only for the sake of being exotic. I don't need cosmetic alterations to a basic human model to find a character interesting... but I completely understand why someone might find those alterations attractive. Tastes vary. I just wish people would learn to appreciate diversity closer to home. Human culture in Antiva is very different from human culture in the Anderfells, and both are different from human culture in the Korcari Wilds. But that isn't going to happen, because detractors seem to prefer to lump all humans together regardless of whether or not they share any traits besides their race.

 

Changing the subject completely, I'd like to address the issue of human bigotry. There are a few genuinely dickish humans, it's true. But they're the villains. The game needs villains or there's no one to fight. Any human the protagonist will not have to fight later will invariably be open-minded and tolerant. No, the approval hit non-human or mage protagonists take at the start of Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts doesn't count. I would not call disapproval that can be overcome (and much more) with a few polite remarks deeply entrenched bigotry. The game seems to expect us to like the non-humans who are genuinely hostile to them, however. They aren't even villains, they're just people you meet during the course of your quests, and seldom is there a way to reply to them with anything other than politeness or even fawning. I suppose it would be suicidal to tell Marethari's gate guards to take a chill when they have six arrows pointed at your face, but why can't we tell Briala off? I prefer to play characters who aren't racist, but I object to the fact that it's mandatory rather than a choice. It isn't a virtue unless it's voluntary.

[Dean_the_Young]

My biggest pet peeve came when I started reading the memorial stones in the Exalted Plains. Now let me first be clear: I would have no problem if the Chantry wanted to bring up crimes the elves committed in the past (having a different culture/belief is not a crime), referenced atrocities committed by the elves as a nation, or were actually honest in the contributions the elves made (Like Ameridan and the Cantacle of Shartan)

 

But actually read those stones: "They had committed the greatest sin: Turning away from the Maker." Ergo, apostasy. THAT is what the exclusively human Chantry is the most upset about. Not the innocent people elves had killed (accident or not), not the villages pillaged by the Dalish people during the Exalted March against them (which they did do, by the way). The fear and hatred of elves by the majority of Andrastian humans is informed by superstition and paranoia (mixed with some nationalistic pride) and not actual facts.

 

 

I applaud making wide and overarching conclusions on complex socio-political contexts centuries afterwards on the basis of a couple of carved rocks made in the victorious aftermath of a war.

 

Truly those monuments represent the totality of all political thought and reasoning of the time.

 

 

 

Josephine defended the Chantry by calling it "the source of many shared customs." I would go further in that it also is the source of most (if not all) shared hatreds. Like the fear of mages, the mistrust between elves and humans can be mitigated by education. The problem is, (like the real life roman catholic church) the educational system of most human societies is the Chantry, which categorically lies, refuses to admit wrongdoing, and in general spreads unwarranted fear and paranoia.

 

 

 

I agree. The fear of mages is magic if totally unwarranted, so long as we don't warrant the extensive history of magical oppression, ease and propensity to abuse, and the three different pending or ongoing magical apocalypse events of the Blight, the Veil (Solas), and the Evanuris.

 

Similarly, the strife between humans and elves can be mitigated by education... presuming that this education further destroys and distorts elven history by denying them agency and making their situation so malignly inflicted by humans that humans feel pity and apologetic.

 

 

We have examples of modern and close-to-modern Dalish clans offering to put aside their differences in order to work with humans towards a common goal/enemy. Not so with humans (that I'm aware of; feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

 

 

We also have the examples of the Dalish defaulting to a mageocracy and putting aside their differences in the name of a racial vendetta of an entirely different sort, living at a subsitience level, and worshipping fanfiction to justify it all.

 

Not quite an improvement.

 

 

 

The incident at Red Crossing was a ****-up on both sides, but thus far (if you give that info to Hawen) only the Dalish have been willing to accept that as a true part of their history, and attempted to make amends. Not so the Chantry.

 

 

Yes, because the Chantry really should apologize for being willing to tolerate the miscegenation of a interracial couple, accept conversion from an immigrant, and having a hot Chantry sister.

 

Stupid sexy humans. How dare they defend themselves from an unprovoked attack.

[Dean_the_Young]

No.  I'm not.  I'm talking about a majority of humans

*Citation needed.

 

Of course, I wonder how the human majority would turn out if we polled every human character we see. How many humans in Dragon Age do we know of that hold the views that this 'majority' is supposed to hold?

 

 

 

but I'm not talking about every single human being thinking and acting in unison with no variation.  

 

 

It would probably help your case if you didn't do so, then. Personally, I'd avoid overly unifying terms like 'the humans.' It's a term that only makes sense if you are using it to refer to all humans collectively.

 

Overarching terms only help if there is a significant degree of political and cultural unity across the terms, particularly in terms of identity. Humans don't identify primarily by racial identity- they identify by culture. Chasined, Qunari, Neverran, Orlesian, etc. Some identify even by non-cultural identiteis: mage, Warden.

 

'The Dalish Elves' works as an identifier because Dalish elves have a relatively unified cultural identity. 'The City Elves' works less so, because culturally the city elves identify with their nations. 'The elves' works not at all because the City Elves and the Dalish have different experiences, viewpoints, and contexts.

[Dean_the_Young]

The dwarves = stone thing is a not-uncommon fantasy trope, yes. Apparently in Tolkien's writing, "they come from the stone and return to the stone" was an outsiders' misconception, but other settings play it straight to some degree or another.

 

 

Agreed. Many fantasy races, but elves and dwarves in particular, have very little thought put into them -- they are basically humans in funny suits instead of truly alien in any way, and pushed into tiny stereotypical boxes at that. And when humans are dominant in a setting (as they usually are) and in the focus of its stories, other species just don't have as much appeal to me because they are too limited and not as connected to what is going on. That "connectedness" is always one of the most important factors in my enjoyment of a story.

 

For example, one of the few things that might recapture my interest in the DA setting at this point would be a truly dwarf-focused story in which a dwarf PC is required/assumed so the uniquely dwarves things like the Stone-sense can be explored and experienced in depth instead of just being a background gimmick that the NPCs occasionally lecture me about. I want to feel like I'm actually playing a dwarf instead of a really short human. But given the way the Bioware writers have treated their protagonists (as hollow props instead of characters) and the things that supposedly made them "special" (as little more than red herrings that are mostly ignored, or even taken away/destroyed), I don't think we'll ever see that.

 

'Little thought put into them' is the crux of why I feel a lot of people dislike Humans. You can put a lot of effort into something 'unique' or 'distinct' without it feeling 'innovative.' The Human kingdoms of Dragon Age have plenty of distinction and apparent thought put into them, but they're still recognizibly or 'typical' quasi-midieval monarchies. Fine if you like/tolerate that setup, but still a common foundation. It's like 'the Alliance' in Mass Effect- oh, hey, there's are humans of recognizable government and cultural structure, complete with the typical taking for granted of 20th century liberal cultural values for determining 'good' and 'bad.' European Enlightnement values are taken for granted.

 

 

One of these days, I'd like to see Bioware or someone similar in ability try to create human factions in which the humans are culturally 'alien' to modern western liberal sensibilities. The Qun was a good step, but more could be done. Humanity, the conquered and assimilated species in someone else's culture? Space communism that laughs at bourgeois 'rights' and in individualism over the collective?

 

A cybernetically-evolved quasi-hive-mind of networked individuals?

[Korva]

I agree. The fear of mages is magic if totally unwarranted, so long as we don't warrant the extensive history of magical oppression, ease and propensity to abuse, and the three different pending or ongoing magical apocalypse events of the Blight, the Veil (Solas), and the Evanuris.

 

Yeah. Things should (and do, no matter what) improve for mages, and abuses of power against them are as inexcusable as abuses of power by them -- but on general principle, people have more than enough reason to be wary of magic and mages. Magic is dangerous, both to its wielders and to their surroundings. The attitudes towards mages do not come out of the blue and they are not the result of evil religious dogma, they are based on magical atrocities, nearly world-shattering disasters, and the simple fact that a snotty brat throwing a temper tantrum could wipe out a whole village ... and that's without a demon hitching a ride in the fun little meat puppet. Not to mention that as of the time of Inquisiton, there's not one but two mage-supremacist ancient evils actively working on wrecking the world for their self-serving whims. With more (the evanuris) chomping on their bits to get loose and have a go at it as well, apparently.

 

It baffles me how many people just keep ignoring all that in favor of a myopic "mages good, Chantry evil" attitude. Including the writers, at times.

 

'Little thought put into them' is the crux of why I feel a lot of people dislike Humans. You can put a lot of effort into something 'unique' or 'distinct' without it feeling 'innovative.'

 

I don't disagree -- it's one reason why the setting, overall, leaves me rather cold. I'd be more interestic in a really fantastical high-magic setting or as I said in a real exploration of what "alien" concepts like the dwarves connection to the Stone really mean and really feel like.

 

As for the "humans are boring" mentality, I've more or less subscribed to that notion for a lot of multi-race settings... though I think "boring" isn't the right word for it. More... "standard." Humans tend to be the "default" race, and I have an aversion to playing "default." For example, Skyrim - I'm fine playing a Breton or Redguard, but playing a Nord in the homeland of the Nords? It feels like I'm "supposed" to pick them, and I'd rather see what happens when I don't... like it will be more "interesting" that way.

 

Interesting. I'm the complete opposite because I want to feel as connected to a story as possible (provided the story interests me in the first place). And usually, games don't really make us feel like the outsider we're supposed to be if we don't go with the "default" or "obvious" choice. There's too little variation in dialog options and NPC reactions for that. That's also why I'm in favor of games being unapologetically written for a single-race or at least single-culture protagonist, which I know is a minority position in the fandom.

[Steelcan]

How have I not found this thread yet

[Illegitimus]

 

One of these days, I'd like to see Bioware or someone similar in ability try to create human factions in which the humans are culturally 'alien' to modern western liberal sensibilities. The Qun was a good step, but more could be done. Humanity, the conquered and assimilated species in someone else's culture? Space communism that laughs at bourgeois 'rights' and in individualism over the collective?

 

Sure there must be some games set in Star Trek TNG's setting.  

[AlanC9]

We also have the examples of the Dalish defaulting to a mageocracy and putting aside their differences in the name of a racial vendetta of an entirely different sort, living at a subsitience level, and worshipping fanfiction to justify it all.

Well, at least the mageocracy part actually gets ancient elven culture right.

[Illegitimus]

*Citation needed.

 

Of course, I wonder how the human majority would turn out if we polled every human character we see. How many humans in Dragon Age do we know of that hold the views that this 'majority' is supposed to hold?

 

Enough that it's a shocking and dangerous innovation if Celine puts one into the university or Leliana puts one into the priesthood.   

[Tidus]

Enough that it's a shocking and dangerous innovation if Celine puts one into the university or Leliana puts one into the priesthood.   

 Indeed..Look how the nobles got upset about Celine Elven lover when it came to light and how she wanted Elves to be able to go to the university.

 

Leliana means well but,placing a Elf as a priestess or having a Elven (HOF) lover would be very dangerous for her.  

 

There's no way Ferelden would accept a Elven Queen should Alistair marry his Elven lover in DA:O.

 

There's way to much hate for the Elves.

 

BTW. If the CEs wanted to improve their lot in life the Arl or King/Queen would order a purge of the Alienage just to appease the Nobles.  I suspect these Nobels would look down on the Elven HOF after a short time and maybe call him/her a traitor for killing Loghain and putting a GW on the throne instead of the Queen. Even in DA:A some of the Nobels wanted to kill the Warden Commander or the HOF if you use your character from DA:O..

[metalfenix]

 

4. From a purely aesthetic standpoint, to me most Elves look like children. The skinny bodies, the lack of body hair, the soft features and sometimes short heights scream in my mind “ADOLESCENT”! At least Dwarves have hair and muscle mass. Elves just don’t look strong enough for heroic adventure, and the thought of romancing them just feels creepy.

 

This is my main gripe on elves on ANY fantasy setting. I can play as dwarf, human or qunari, but I cannot get into elves for this reason. I had a female city elf warden, but it was because I loved the origin. But I cannot make a male elf on DA games, specially inquisition, where their arms seems to broke on any moment.

 

But on the contrary, I find their lore fascinating, specially on DA I like to read about their culture and history. I loved that trespasser got a bit deep on their lore. On TES however, I hate them, specially high elves.

[DebatableBubble]

Indeed..Look how the nobles got upset about Celine Elven lover when it came to light and how she wanted Elves to be able to go to the university.
 
Leliana means well but,placing a Elf as a priestess or having a Elven (HOF) lover would be very dangerous for her.  
 
There's no way Ferelden would accept a Elven Queen should Alistair marry his Elven lover in DA:O.
 
There's way to much hate for the Elves.
 
BTW. If the CEs wanted to improve their lot in life the Arl or King/Queen would order a purge of the Alienage just to appease the Nobles.  I suspect these Nobels would look down on the Elven HOF after a short time and maybe call him/her a traitor for killing Loghain and putting a GW on the throne instead of the Queen. Even in DA:A some of the Nobels wanted to kill the Warden Commander or the HOF if you use your character from DA:O..

Nice try. That happens regardless of what your Warden's background is. It happens with an Orlesian Warden, too,

[Dai Grepher]

While that is actually an indication in some instances, it can also indicate in other instances that the Avvar were thinking the following; "Leaving is good, never coming back is better" and applied that aggressively hence why they pursued the Dalish as far down as the lowlands and did not cease until they ceased to be.

 

 

Admittedly, I may have missed that bit of information but I do not believe the codex entry stated whether or not the Sabrae clan had taken precautions by building defensive measures so for all we know, they did not and for all we know, they did and it was simply insufficent against the Avvar who had more experienced in laying siege to settlements.  

 

It wasn't as far down as the lowlands, it was past the border and far into the lowlands. Territorial interest doesn't explain chasing them into unknown and dangerous territory. If they chased them into the Kokari Wilds it's only because they were engaged in hunting them for thrills.

 

Even if they built up some defenses, it wasn't enough. They were taken by barbarians who had nothing but paint and animal skins for armor. The Dalish should be more advanced than the Avvar, yet they were not a formidable force until Flemeth organized them. Again proving that servitude is the state they are most comfortable with.

 

1. Lanaya is one of the few exceptions that aren't enough to make a difference for the Dalish as a whole. She succeeded Zathrian by default, and she led her people in the fight against the Blight because of a contract agreement made prior to her even being born.

 

2. Many places in the Kokari Wilds. The uncharted lands south of that. Deeper parts of the Dales. I think the Hunterhorn Hills is another area that has little to no activity until Cassandra decides to rebuild the Seekers there.

 

3. No real argument here, but my point was that the Dalish consider city elves to be flat ears, or not of the People. They think they have lived around "shemlen" and are therefore no better than humans. This is the main reason why city elves can't learn more of Dalish heritage.

 

4. I understand that current situations have more of an effect than past situations, but there is a belief that such behaviors somehow carry on through generations. Like it's in their DNA. Not saying this is definately the case, but in a universe like Dragon Age where magic and traits are carried "in the blood", I wouldn't be surprised.

 

5. Easier movement, but not necessarily faster. They have less to pick up and move, but also less in resources to get from one place to another. Fewer scouts, less supplies, more stops.

 

What size group is tolerated or harassed depends on the lord and the size of his army. He might not care about a small band, or he might attack them out of prejudice or a want of slaves. He might feel threatened by a large group, or he might not worry if they are just passing through briefly. However, the main threat will always be from bandits and savage tribes. So the larger the group, the better. Even an evil lord will be discouraged from engaging a large group in battle out of concern for what he would lose fighting them. And lords have lands and borders, which can be bypassed. Bandits and savages could be anywhere.

 

6. Velanna isn't all that bad in my opinion. She was wrong to murder people without knowing the truth, but she was deceived by opponents long thought to be little more than mindless beasts. And when faced with her error she showed remorse. Given the right guidance in Awakening she saves a village and is celebrated as a hero for it. And let's be honest, she was the product of the Dalish.

 

7. But letting her go to possibly fight the humans while the clan stayed put would only make it look like the clan sanctioned the attack, and the local bann would have sent soldiers to hold the entire clan accountable. Exiling her is the same as letting her go on her own to carry out the attack. It's no different than if they had let her stay in the clan and she carried out the attack.

 

8. Tie her up? Confine her to an arravhel? Direct her to weave baskets with the older females of the clan until further notice? Whatever it takes to keep her in the camp.

 

If they move, then the problem is resolved for the time being. Velanna's desire was to fight the ones driving them away. If the Keeper had moved them, then there would be no reason to fight. All the Keeper would have to do is make sure Velanna doesn't try to sneak away as they were packing up.

 

Glad you enjoy the peaceful discussion. I do as well. It's getting more and more rare on the Internet these days.

[Fredward]

I feel this mix of contempt, pity and exasperation for the Dalish but elves in general are fine. I don't really care how they're portrayed in media at large, in Dragon Age I don't find them particularly objectionable. And even my feelings for the Dalish aren't centered around them being elves.

[GoldenGail3]

It wasn't as far down as the lowlands, it was past the border and far into the lowlands. Territorial interest doesn't explain chasing them into unknown and dangerous territory. If they chased them into the Kokari Wilds it's only because they were engaged in hunting them for thrills.
 
Even if they built up some defenses, it wasn't enough. They were taken by barbarians who had nothing but paint and animal skins for armor. The Dalish should be more advanced than the Avvar, yet they were not a formidable force until Flemeth organized them. Again proving that servitude is the state they are most comfortable with.
 
1. Lanaya is one of the few exceptions that aren't enough to make a difference for the Dalish as a whole. She succeeded Zathrian by default, and she led her people in the fight against the Blight because of a contract agreement made prior to her even being born.
 
2. Many places in the Kokari Wilds. The uncharted lands south of that. Deeper parts of the Dales. I think the Hunterhorn Hills is another area that has little to no activity until Cassandra decides to rebuild the Seekers there.
 
3. No real argument here, but my point was that the Dalish consider city elves to be flat ears, or not of the People. They think they have lived around "shemlen" and are therefore no better than humans. This is the main reason why city elves can't learn more of Dalish heritage.
 
4. I understand that current situations have more of an effect than past situations, but there is a belief that such behaviors somehow carry on through generations. Like it's in their DNA. Not saying this is definately the case, but in a universe like Dragon Age where magic and traits are carried "in the blood", I wouldn't be surprised.
 
5. Easier movement, but not necessarily faster. They have less to pick up and move, but also less in resources to get from one place to another. Fewer scouts, less supplies, more stops.
 
What size group is tolerated or harassed depends on the lord and the size of his army. He might not care about a small band, or he might attack them out of prejudice or a want of slaves. He might feel threatened by a large group, or he might not worry if they are just passing through briefly. However, the main threat will always be from bandits and savage tribes. So the larger the group, the better. Even an evil lord will be discouraged from engaging a large group in battle out of concern for what he would lose fighting them. And lords have lands and borders, which can be bypassed. Bandits and savages could be anywhere.
 
6. Velanna isn't all that bad in my opinion. She was wrong to murder people without knowing the truth, but she was deceived by opponents long thought to be little more than mindless beasts. And when faced with her error she showed remorse. Given the right guidance in Awakening she saves a village and is celebrated as a hero for it. And let's be honest, she was the product of the Dalish.
 
7. But letting her go to possibly fight the humans while the clan stayed put would only make it look like the clan sanctioned the attack, and the local bann would have sent soldiers to hold the entire clan accountable. Exiling her is the same as letting her go on her own to carry out the attack. It's no different than if they had let her stay in the clan and she carried out the attack.
 
8. Tie her up? Confine her to an arravhel? Direct her to weave baskets with the older females of the clan until further notice? Whatever it takes to keep her in the camp.
 
If they move, then the problem is resolved for the time being. Velanna's desire was to fight the ones driving them away. If the Keeper had moved them, then there would be no reason to fight. All the Keeper would have to do is make sure Velanna doesn't try to sneak away as they were packing up.
 
Glad you enjoy the peaceful discussion. I do as well. It's getting more and more rare on the Internet these days.

I'd like to say that my Male Lavellan ending up doing a City Elf; had a kid with her.

[Qis]

The weakness of multiple races option is there is not enough time to connect with the said race we choose in the origin. In a few minutes we have to learn everything about our race. When choosing Elf, the only thing that come to mind is Elf hate human for reason...that's all. But the game is 70% working with human and solving human problems, if don't help human we are being a bad person...for reason...

 

So the problem is "not helping human = being a bad person"

 

The game make it so...

[Madfox11]

Norway officially sucks at this lore thing.  What's the bloody point if they kill you no matter what?  0/10, would not mindlessly read up on on Wikipedia. 

 

The Vikings were a rather fatalistic culture

 

Anyway, as said, in the older myths elves and their fellow fey were alien ambivalent people with strange rules and taboos, but who certainly helped you if you stuck to those rules. Some of them were even gods you prayed to for help. Some experts theorize the elves and fey became darker (and less powerful) under the influence of the Catholic Church. After all, the Church wanted people to go to them for aid, not to some heretical alternate religion.

[Tidus]

Nice try. That happens regardless of what your Warden's background is. It happens with an Orlesian Warden, too,

 Actually I was talking about the Human Nobles and the way they react to anything they deem  a threat to their way of life.

 

All of the Nobles  swore fealty to the Warden Commander even though some of them  was plotting a scheme to get rid of their "problem". 

[Tidus]

6. Velanna isn't all that bad in my opinion. She was wrong to murder people without knowing the truth, but she was deceived by opponents long thought to be little more than mindless beasts. And when faced with her error she showed remorse. Given the right guidance in Awakening she saves a village and is celebrated as a hero for it. And let's be honest, she was the product of the Dalish.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Exactly. Velanna didn't do anything more then then to try to right a wrong she didn't fully understand what really happen because all she wanted was her  sister returned.  She has a quick mouth and a fiery temper but,she is a strong mage and as we know she saves a village and becomes a hero..

 

After Velanna becomes a Grey she becomes my mage of choice.