1517 réponses à ce sujet

[Timberley]

Bah, so I was only partly correct!  The perils of the phone post with a hazy memory of the lore!

 

Tim

[KirkyX]

"Droplet sheets resemble a surface ship's wake through water. The wake peels out in sharp turns, spreading a fan of droplets as the ship changes vectors and leaves the coolant behind."

 

Now that's something I want to see! It'd give Mass Effect's space battles a really unique aesthetic.

[yolobastien6412]

I think that the first and the third were quite pointless in relation to MAss Effect aesthetics(they don't fit in, imo), but this one is pretty good for all those scenarios where you encounter some settlers in a mild/hot climates, who are just a ragtag bunch of civilians, luck seekers, adventures scavenging for some valuables in their spare time. In previous games everyone was looking more like a farmer, so that style with its low-tech appeal would be a welcome change.

Here some other in the same vein:

Are you sure this is lowtech appeal, and not just gratuitous exposure of boobs?

[KirkyX]

Just to throw in some more space battle stuff: there's this one scene from Space Battleship Yamato: 2199 that I really enjoy, and I think the use of perspective does a really good job of giving the whole thing a grandiose sense of scale: (Warning: four large .gifs; the scene works better in video form, with music and everything, but it keeps getting swatted off YouTube.)

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

The second .gif, in particular, is one of the best examples I've ever seen of having a whole shitton of ships in one scene, and making it actually feel like there's masses and masses of spacecraft floating around out there. How this could be applied to Andromeda? I dunno, I think the initial emergence of the Yamato from gate-space, flying straight at the camera with guns swivelling into position is pretty freaking cool, and would be a great way to kick off some kind of action scene. And the whole 'mass of ships thing' could be applied to any massive space battle, I suppose.

[SNascimento]

As far as space battle are concerned, I believe Mass Effect delivered with extreme prejudice. Both in quality and scale.

About the gif you mentioned, KirkyX, I believe the Normandy arriving at the Rannoch's system to be a cool way to start a battle scene:



However, one of the few things that I believe ME1 did better than the sequels was the "bullets over laser" feel its space battle had. Like I said in a previous post, just give me PDCs firing madly! 

[KirkyX]

Spoiler

 

I'm all about the lasers/phasers, honestly--I spent a lot of time watching Star Trek growing up. I do enjoy a spot of point-defence, though:

 

Spoiler

 

Still, I'll never say no to a good spinal-mount mass accelerator cannon.

 

And yeah, that Normandy jump-in is pretty fantastic, though my favourite take on 'emerging from hyperspace' is probably still that Elite: Dangerous clip I posted a few pages ago.

 

Since we'll actually be flying our ship around - at least, more directly than we have in the past - in Andromeda, I wonder if we'll actually get to participate in a space battle at some point? 

[Laughing_Man]

Talking about weapons, did anyone notice that firing animations of mass accelerator rounds in space have practically nothing to do with canon?

 

The rounds look slow as hell, and all most the firing animations we see are from turrets, not spinal mounted guns, which are supposed to be central to the setting, the heavy hitters.

 

Edit: Asari ships look mostly like the Destiny Ascension, and you are left wondering where the hell do they mount their main gun, and what is the purpose of that huge glowing hole in the middle of the ship.

 

Torpedoes are supposed to be common, yet I don't think we have seen them used, ever.

 

GARDIAN point defense systems are supposed to be used against smaller threats, yet all we see are fighters being blown up with regular MAC rounds from turrets.

 

I would like to see a bit more acknowledgment from cut scenes that this is actually Mass Effect, as opposed to Halo, or other generic Sci-Fi.

 

The lore is not that complicated, don't ignore it.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Mass Effect 1 and 3 showed cases where the spinal-mounted weapons and/or torpedoes are used.

[Giubba]

As far as space battle are concerned, I believe Mass Effect delivered with extreme prejudice. Both in quality and scale.

About the gif you mentioned, KirkyX, I believe the Normandy arriving at the Rannoch's system to be a cool way to start a battle scene:



However, one of the few things that I believe ME1 did better than the sequels was the "bullets over laser" feel its space battle had. Like I said in a previous post, just give me PDCs firing madly! 

 

Every time i see attack run made by the Alliance fighters in the earth battle i always think "Damn do a wing commander spin off!"

[Laughing_Man]

Mass Effect 1 and 3 showed cases where the spinal-mounted weapons and/or torpedoes are used.

 

Hmm... You are right regarding spinal mounted guns, my bad, but I don't remember torpedoes.

[SNascimento]

Hmm... You are right regarding spinal mounted guns, my bad, but I don't remember torpedoes.

ME1 did have them.

Anyway, the problem is that visually creating a space battle in entirely different than writing the lore for it. No battle in the trilogy felt close to what battles should be according to the Codex. And that's understadable, as they wouldn't be nearly as cool to watch. 

[Laughing_Man]

ME1 did have them.

Anyway, the problem is that visually creating a space battle in entirely different than writing the lore for it. No battle in the trilogy felt close to what battles should be according to the Codex. And that's understadable, as they wouldn't be nearly as cool to watch. 

 

I don't see why.

 

Obviously you need "knife fight" type engagements, because the long range ones are not nearly as exciting (probably).

But all the other elements can be used to great effect.

 

You don't think that seeing a flanking maneuver by a wolf-pack of speedy frigates that ends with a volley of disruptor torpedoes can be exciting?

 

Dreadnoughts using their massive main guns, or a full broadside from dozens of smaller cannons.

 

Fighters screening for bombers, while interceptors going after both.

 

Boarding parties using stealth shuttles to launch commando strikes.

 

Masses of drones that use swarm tactics to overwhelm point defense systems.

[Han Shot First]

Just to throw in some more space battle stuff: there's this one scene from Space Battleship Yamato: 2199 that I really enjoy, and I think the use of perspective does a really good job of giving the whole thing a grandiose sense of scale: (Warning: four large .gifs; the scene works better in video form, with music and everything, but it keeps getting swatted off YouTube.)

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

The second .gif, in particular, is one of the best examples I've ever seen of having a whole shitton of ships in one scene, and making it actually feel like there's masses and masses of spacecraft floating around out there. How this could be applied to Andromeda? I dunno, I think the initial emergence of the Yamato from gate-space, flying straight at the camera with guns swivelling into position is pretty freaking cool, and would be a great way to kick off some kind of action scene. And the whole 'mass of ships thing' could be applied to any massive space battle, I suppose.

 

Those are great. I love the second one with the Hot Jupiter(?) behind the silhouettes of all those ships.

 

The best space battle in a film as far as spectacle and grandiosity goes, was probably the opening to Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith. I think that scene would be a good place to go for inspiration if the devs have to create a large space battle for a Mass Effect game.

 

[Timberley]

Hmm... You are right regarding spinal mounted guns, my bad, but I don't remember torpedoes.

 
I always thought that in the following clip (fast-forwarded to the relevant moment), the Alliance ship fires her main railgun twice, following by a torpedo:
 
https://youtu.be/bNnd6oUEQ2I?t=5m32s
 

I don't see why.
 
Obviously you need "knife fight" type engagements, because the long range ones are not nearly as exciting (probably).
But all the other elements can be used to great effect.
 
You don't think that seeing a flanking maneuver by a wolf-pack of speedy frigates that ends with a volley of disruptor torpedoes can be exciting?
 
Dreadnoughts using their massive main guns, or a full broadside from dozens of smaller cannons.
 
Fighters screening for bombers, while interceptors going after both.
 
Boarding parties using stealth shuttles to launch commando strikes.
 
Masses of drones that use swarm tactics to overwhelm point defense systems.

 
 
Like this?
 
http://www.youtube.c...azuGdTw?t=1m58s

As an aside, I love the aesthetics for this game. I play it a lot, but only about 30% is in-game!
 
Tim

[Laughing_Man]

Those are great. I love the second one with the Hot Jupiter(?) behind the silhouettes of all those ships.

 

The best space battle in a film as far as spectacle and grandiosity goes, was probably the opening to Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith. I think that scene would be a good place to go for inspiration if the devs have to create a large space battle for a Mass Effect game.

 

Yes, the space battle above Coruscant is one of my favorite parts in the second trilogy, it's not perfect, but it is exciting and shows the massive scope of the battle, and gives representation to the different forces at work and the general "feel" of a SW space battle.

[Laughing_Man]

 
I always thought that in the following clip (fast-forwarded to the relevant moment), the Alliance ship fires her main railgun twice, following by a torpedo:
 
https://youtu.be/bNnd6oUEQ2I?t=5m32s

 

Tim

 

You are right, I suppose that my criticism is more about ME3, and to a lesser degree about ME2.

[KirkyX]

Those are great. I love the second one with the Hot Jupiter(?) behind the silhouettes of all those ships.

 

The best space battle in a film as far as spectacle and grandiosity goes, was probably the opening to Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith. I think that scene would be a good place to go for inspiration if the devs have to create a large space battle for a Mass Effect game.

 

 

If I remember right, the idea is that it's a Hot Jupiter that's been harnessed to provide power for a large network of interstellar hyperspace gates--that's why it's such an odd shape. In any case, it gets quite a bit... Hotter, before the Yamato's through with it:

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

And yeah, the battle from Episode 3 is pretty fantastic - the Venator-class is one of my favourite Star Destroyer designs, as well - though I think I still prefer the Battle of Endor from Return of the Jedi. The effects hold up amazingly well, considering how old it is:

 

 

(Sadly, the only version I can find on YouTube has some pretty jarring editing.)

[heinoMK2]

Are you sure this is lowtech appeal, and not just gratuitous exposure of boobs?

It is a valid remark for the second picture - her breasts are phenomenal indeed - but reducing both of these examples just to a boob show is wrong.

 

Let me explain why i chose these.

 

Imagine yourself as a player, with your protagonists being surrounded mostly by some kind of military personell at the start. Everyone has their official uniform or work clothes, there is a certain code of conduct everywhere, your protagonists is sporting some cool super high tech armour as in previous ME games, there is high tech everywhere on the ship you are traveling with.

 

Now you get down to some sort of a planetary settlement run by some ragtag group of fairly independent individuals situated in a place with a dry and fairly warm climate. No high tech in abundance, no super cool armours with built-in conditioners, just a bunch of people wearing what you'd consider rags, scavenging the planet's surface for valuable junk and maintaining some facilities with some of this requiring some demanding physical work.

It would be perfectly natural for these to go around with free upper body or at least exposing their skin to a higher degree in certain circumstances without everyone around starting to stare or to catcall or to throw around sexual innuendos. For both men and women. This is not some sort of a beach resort or night club with horny people everywhere, rather just a bunch of people minding their own buisiness and working for a living.

There would be a great contrast in such a situation between the fully armour-clad player with his companions sporting all sorts of high tech toys and the people in the settlement wearing what could be considered rags and operating some self-built machinery.

 

Another thing the "boob show" focus ignores are the tattoos on the picture i quoted and on both(!) i posted. These are great because they make these characters feel natural in the way the are portrayed - tattoos of that magnitude are meant to be seen, after all, and at the same time they signalize that the people in question are used to show some skin and are not really bothered by it. It's a bit like with Jack in ME2/3 who was running around wearing hardly anything without it being a boob show but rather going along the story of the character.

 

There are two other things that go well along with some show of skin - impressive scars and small objects of importance.

Scars are a good topic starter and could alert the player to some native wild life. You for example go past some shack, see some dude with 3 huge scars on his back, as if from a big claw, talk to him, get told of some dangerous animal, maybe get a quest to hunt the one down that did that to him for something in return etc. Just a natural progression and connection between visuals and storytelling.

Considering "small objects of importance": when people take off their shirt, some prefer to keep things like gold chains with crosses or other keepsackes on them. This would be another good visual indicator to go along the story about certain characters. If you take the second picture i posted, after the first unbelieving stare at her magnificent breasts you maybe would notice some interesting object around her neck(not in picture, but just an example) and maybe would keep guessing what it could be. Later down the story line she might reveal that it's a key to some small ships she was secretly repairing to get off the planet for some reason, for example, with you go "ahh, so that's how it is, yeah, that looks indeed a bit like some sort of a key on the second guess".

 

Also, i think there is nothing wrong with featuring some boobs and butts in a natural context where it's not as laughable as with Miranda's behind.

[legbamel]

Ah, but if the bikini top were a natural reaction to being hot and sweaty why is the guy next to her wearing a trench coat?  Neither one of those ladies has tattoos or scars on her chest.  The boobs are gratuitous in both instances (especially the second where they're outsized and she's not even wearing a bra.  Tell me going out to do physical labor with no support for that much weight is realistic.)

 

That said, I don't see any reason people have to hide their bodies, I just don't want to see the chain-mail bikini syndrome where the women are wearing almost nothing and the men are fully dressed.  If it's hot enough or there's some other reason for women to be half nude or more then let all the people be unclothed.

[heinoMK2]

Ah, but if the bikini top were a natural reaction to being hot and sweaty why is the guy next to her wearing a trench coat?  Neither one of those ladies has tattoos or scars on her chest.  The boobs are gratuitous in both instances (especially the second where they're outsized and she's not even wearing a bra.  Tell me going out to do physical labor with no support for that much weight is realistic.)

 

That said, I don't see any reason people have to hide their bodies, I just don't want to see the chain-mail bikini syndrome where the women are wearing almost nothing and the men are fully dressed.  If it's hot enough or there's some other reason for women to be half nude or more then let all the people be unclothed.

Well, for all we know the dude might be shirtless under his trench coat - after all both of them aren't wearing any shoes and seem to be cooling off a bit in the water while the female is also spoting some kind of a coat, probably to shield her from too much sun. If you wouldn't focus too much on the breasts you would probably agree with me that the scene is nicely different from the usual type of settlements we visit in ME and does indeed look very low tech in comparison(that telescope!).

I feared that posting the second picture would derail the discussion and was apparently right. It does bother me a bit, though, that people take issue with a pair of good looking breasts to the extent that they would discard everything else about a picture, it's almost like some irrational breast envy i see lately in different places/forums.

 

I agree with the second part of your post.

 

p.s.: To make a test. So let's say i post something different.

 

 

I would say that this would make for a great boss type enemy character, because i like the body language, i like the facial dynamic and how the weapon look awesome, somehow connected to the way the cape flows, and how my first reaction in game would probably be "uh-oh, this one means buisiness and/or lots of trouble".

I would probably even come up with a story for this character, something about how this person was previously purely organic and over hundreds of years after replacing more and more parts of herself with mechanical parts, slowly turning in an android, lost a lot of the equivalent of humanity of her species and now rules with an iron hand over a bunch of criminals, bandits or maybe a small army on some forsaken planet.

 

Would you discard all of this and try to focus mostly on the fact that whoever has drawn this, decided to paint this character in a way that shows her behind in a somewhat favourable fashion?

[Khrystyn]

I don't see why.

 

Obviously you need "knife fight" type engagements, because the long range ones are not nearly as exciting (probably).

But all the other elements can be used to great effect.

 

You don't think that seeing a flanking maneuver by a wolf-pack of speedy frigates that ends with a volley of disruptor torpedoes can be exciting?

 

Dreadnoughts using their massive main guns, or a full broadside from dozens of smaller cannons.

 

Fighters screening for bombers, while interceptors going after both.

 

Boarding parties using stealth shuttles to launch commando strikes.

 

Masses of drones that use swarm tactics to overwhelm point defense systems.

 

TA - are you talking about a passive observation of a space battle in a cutscene, or the gamer having a vessel to fly and shoot cannons/laser fire with?

[yolobastien6412]

It is a valid remark for the second picture - her breasts are phenomenal indeed - but reducing both of these examples just to a boob show is wrong.

 

Let me explain why i chose these.

 

Imagine yourself as a player, with your protagonists being surrounded mostly by some kind of military personell at the start. Everyone has their official uniform or work clothes, there is a certain code of conduct everywhere, your protagonists is sporting some cool super high tech armour as in previous ME games, there is high tech everywhere on the ship you are traveling with.

 

Now you get down to some sort of a planetary settlement run by some ragtag group of fairly independent individuals situated in a place with a dry and fairly warm climate. No high tech in abundance, no super cool armours with built-in conditioners, just a bunch of people wearing what you'd consider rags, scavenging the planet's surface for valuable junk and maintaining some facilities with some of this requiring some demanding physical work.

It would be perfectly natural for these to go around with free upper body or at least exposing their skin to a higher degree in certain circumstances without everyone around starting to stare or to catcall or to throw around sexual innuendos. For both men and women. This is not some sort of a beach resort or night club with horny people everywhere, rather just a bunch of people minding their own buisiness and working for a living.

There would be a great contrast in such a situation between the fully armour-clad player with his companions sporting all sorts of high tech toys and the people in the settlement wearing what could be considered rags and operating some self-built machinery.

 

Another thing the "boob show" focus ignores are the tattoos on the picture i quoted and on both(!) i posted. These are great because they make these characters feel natural in the way the are portrayed - tattoos of that magnitude are meant to be seen, after all, and at the same time they signalize that the people in question are used to show some skin and are not really bothered by it. It's a bit like with Jack in ME2/3 who was running around wearing hardly anything without it being a boob show but rather going along the story of the character.

 

There are two other things that go well along with some show of skin - impressive scars and small objects of importance.

Scars are a good topic starter and could alert the player to some native wild life. You for example go past some shack, see some dude with 3 huge scars on his back, as if from a big claw, talk to him, get told of some dangerous animal, maybe get a quest to hunt the one down that did that to him for something in return etc. Just a natural progression and connection between visuals and storytelling.

Considering "small objects of importance": when people take off their shirt, some prefer to keep things like gold chains with crosses or other keepsackes on them. This would be another good visual indicator to go along the story about certain characters. If you take the second picture i posted, after the first unbelieving stare at her magnificent breasts you maybe would notice some interesting object around her neck(not in picture, but just an example) and maybe would keep guessing what it could be. Later down the story line she might reveal that it's a key to some small ships she was secretly repairing to get off the planet for some reason, for example, with you go "ahh, so that's how it is, yeah, that looks indeed a bit like some sort of a key on the second guess".

 

Also, i think there is nothing wrong with featuring some boobs and butts in a natural context where it's not as laughable as with Miranda's behind.

I kind of knew what you were going for, but the pictures did not really illustrate that, especially not the second. 

Also depends on the climate really. Hot and humid, people would definitely be wearing light clothes, but in tropical areas for example (unless it is right by the sea) people do not usually walk around topless (men included) in urban areas. In the countryside they might not mind so much, but women still keep their bodies kind of covered as it is indecent to show off your body too much, in any culture tbh.

If it is a very hot place, with high solar intensity, then the inhabitants would cover themselves up with long white clothing to absorb as little sunlight as possible and not get sunburns.

But I do agree that a sort of settlement like that could work well, it just should not be a boob-exposé.

The thing with the scarred person could be a sidequest, where  you go hunting with him/her, and you catch the beast, and you have to decide if you want to kill it, or something else (depends how dangerous it is really, and how much of a douchebag the victim is or isn't)

[legbamel]

Well, for all we know the dude might be shirtless under his trench coat - after all both of them aren't wearing any shoes and seem to be cooling off a bit in the water while the female is also spoting some kind of a coat, probably to shield her from too much sun. If you wouldn't focus too much on the breasts you would probably agree with me that the scene is nicely different from the usual type of settlements we visit in ME and does indeed look very low tech in comparison(that telescope!).

I feared that posting the second picture would derail the discussion and was apparently right. It does bother me a bit, though, that people take issue with a pair of good looking breasts to the extent that they would discard everything else about a picture, it's almost like some irrational breast envy i see lately in different places/forums.

 

I agree with the second part of your post.

 

p.s.: To make a test. So let's say i post something different.

 

 

I would say that this would make for a great boss type enemy character, because i like the body language, i like the facial dynamic and how the weapon look awesome, somehow connected to the way the cape flows, and how my first reaction in game would probably be "uh-oh, this one means buisiness and/or lots of trouble".

I would probably even come up with a story for this character, something about how this person was previously purely organic and over hundreds of years after replacing more and more parts of herself with mechanical parts, slowly turning in an android, lost a lot of the equivalent of humanity of her species and now rules with an iron hand over a bunch of criminals, bandits or maybe a small army on some forsaken planet.

 

Would you discard all of this and try to focus mostly on the fact that whoever has drawn this, decided to paint this character in a way that shows her behind in a somewhat favourable fashion?

While I find the weapon and the overall design interesting, it isn't the sexualized pose that bothers me about this one.  You can handwave that by explaining that she was caught spinning to face an enemy that ambushed her and I would accept that willingly.   It's not the ass that makes me doubt that explanation.

 

It's those freaking shoes!  Women in combat situations wearing heels is completely stupid, no matter what, and to me drawing someone clearly intending to go out and fight (you don't carry a cannon like that if you aren't going to war) wearing shoes that will break your ankle if you step in a pothole means the intent is sex appeal, not badass woman.

 

Yes, I've heard the argument that it's double badass if you can do it in heels (or dance like Fred Astaire but in heels and backwards).  I'll buy the dancing (poor Ginger never got the attention she deserved) but to me going into a situation that will require mobility wearing what may as well be toe shoes is the height of stupidity.  I thought Ashley's heels in ME3 bad enough.

[NKnight7]

Those are great. I love the second one with the Hot Jupiter(?) behind the silhouettes of all those ships.

 

The best space battle in a film as far as spectacle and grandiosity goes, was probably the opening to Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith. I think that scene would be a good place to go for inspiration if the devs have to create a large space battle for a Mass Effect game.

 

 

One of my favorite parts of that movie, a good way to start it I think.

[Laughing_Man]

TA - are you talking about a passive observation of a space battle, or the gamer having a vessel to fly and shoot cannons/laser fire with?

 

Active participation in a massive space battle seems a somewhat unrealistic expectation for a game like Mass Effect and a developer like Bioware.

 

I was talking about a cutscene that shows a few of the different elements I mentioned.

 

Previous ME space battle cutscenes tended to be rather tame, with a lot of overused and re-used assets & animations. Not very impressive.