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[Tetrabytes101]

Anger leads to hate,hate leads to war,the creators as to who they call them selfs are all about kaos and destruction thats all they know and think is normal,

[Kabooooom]

It's possible a species under Reaper attack may have been inspired to create something along the lines of the Crucible once it's revealed to them that the Citadel is a Mass Relay. Getting to the idea to destroy the relay network to slow or even destroy the Reapers by using the Citadel and relay network is not that big of a jump. It's possible they may have known more about the Citadel than other cycles due to particular circumstance. Subsequent species could develop on the technology if the knowledge was preserved either by precursors, Leviathans or the Catalyst. In this scenario it's doubtful synthesis or control would be an option but could be something that was added to the original design.

The problem with this is that it seems doubtful that anyone would have known about the Catalyst (even the Protheans thought the Catalyst was the Citadel, and thus were in error).

Whoever designed the thing had to have intricate knowledge of the Reapers, Starchild (and not just what it is, but how it is programmed), the cycle, the Citadel...honestly, it is so much that it strains credulity.

The simplest explanation that fits with the evidence presented is that the Leviathans had something to do with it. If they didnt design the basic concept of making a giant f-you bomb to nuke the relay network, then they probably modified it such that it interacted and altered the Catalyst.

[ZipZap2000]

I'm thinking leviathans are the only ones who understand how the catalyst functions but couldn't build it on their own in time(Vendetta indicates its ancient and has been attempted in many cycles passed down successively). Those orbs may have been a way to to have gotten the message out or relay information about the harvest (In subsequent cycles). Perhaps it was left behind similar to Liara's information box. Or perhaps this ties in with the mysterious force from deep space that sent the Rachni to war (Some think this was leviathans) or does that have something to do with Andromeda? Or both? (A lot to think about)

For all we know the design itself came from Andromeda but I wouldn't back that just saying. About the only people we can count out are Protheans, Keepers and whatever Agitants were.

So we don't have much to go on.

[ZipZap2000]

Whoever designed the thing had to have intricate knowledge of the Reapers, Starchild (and not just what it is, but how it is programmed), the cycle, the Citadel...honestly, it is so much that it strains credulity.

The simplest explanation that fits with the evidence presented is that the Leviathans had something to do with it. If they didnt design the basic concept of making a giant f-you bomb to nuke the relay network, then they probably modified it such that it interacted and altered the Catalyst.

It actually reads like a fail safe made after the fact, which makes sense; the Leviathan were so arrogant they believed themselves invincible and so gave orders from that perspective, without thought to their own destruction. Then found themselves in the position where they should have and realising their mistake (and understanding their tech) develop the Crucible as an attempt to fix the flaws in the Catalysts programming and shackle the little SOB.

"It has created new.....possibilities....but I cant make them happen."

[themikefest]

the keepers designed the plans. They know the citadel inside and out. 

[ZipZap2000]

the keepers designed the plans. They know the citadel inside and out.

But we know the keepers. Not that I'm arguing it needs to make perfect sense considering everything else that gets thrown out the window by the time you get to this Q anyway.

[themikefest]

But we know the keepers. Not that I'm arguing it needs to make perfect sense considering everything else that gets thrown out the window by the time you get to this Q anyway.

A new player who started the trilogy by playing ME3 first wouldn't know about them.

[ZipZap2000]

A new player who started the trilogy by playing ME3 first wouldn't know about them.

You see one after the beam and there's another on the citadel outside the elevator. I'm almost with you on this btw.

[themikefest]

You see one after the beam and there's another on the citadel outside the elevator. I'm almost with you on this btw.

Seeing them doesn't mean the player knows what their purpose is like a player would if the side mission is completed in ME1. The player also receives an email from Chorban in ME2 mentioning his findings from the data collected

[ZipZap2000]

Seeing them doesn't mean the player knows what their purpose is like a player would if the side mission is completed in ME1. The player also receives an email from Chorban in ME2 mentioning his findings from the data collected

We know this.

But what of what we don't know? Like who created the crucible?

[Kabooooom]

It actually reads like a fail safe made after the fact, which makes sense; the Leviathan were so arrogant they believed themselves invincible and so gave orders from that perspective, without thought to their own destruction. Then found themselves in the position where they should have and realising their mistake (and understanding their tech) develop the Crucible as an attempt to fix the flaws in the Catalysts programming and shackle the little SOB.

"It has created new.....possibilities....but I cant make them happen."

What's interesting is that the plans of the Crucible were admittedly modified over time. So what was the original function? Probably destroy, most likely. Then control, then synthesis. Control requires knowledge of the Starchild. Synthesis at least requires knowledge of the central conflict, motive of the Starchild and why this would be viewed as a favorable solution.

Which almost no species should have - not even the Protheans got that far. So far, only the Leviathans fit that bill. And when you ask one about it, he hesitates, gets all shifty-eyed, and then blows you off.

Then, the Catalyst says "you would not know them and we don't have the time" after you already told him that you met some Leviathans.

So to me, that says the Leviathans didnt start the design, but it is incredibly suspicious that they may have modified it after the fact to enact control and/or synthesis.

If you think about it like that, a bit starts making more sense.

[ZipZap2000]

What's interesting is that the plans of the Crucible were admittedly modified over time. So what was the original function? Probably destroy, most likely. Then control, then synthesis. Control requires knowledge of the Starchild. Synthesis at least requires knowledge of the central conflict, motive of the Starchild and why this would be viewed as a favorable solution.

Which almost no species should have - not even the Protheans got that far. So far, only the Leviathans fit that bill. And when you ask one about it, he hesitates, gets all shifty-eyed, and then blows you off.

Then, the Catalyst says "you would not know them and we don't have the time" after you already told him that you met some Leviathans.

So to me, that says the Leviathans didnt start the design, but it is incredibly suspicious that they may have modified it after the fact to enact control and/or synthesis.

If you think about it like that, a bit starts making more sense.

So that theory goes like this:

Leviathan creates catalyst.

Reapers born.

Leviathans hide.

Mystery race find out about the harvest either through orbs or otherwise.

Mystery races builds crucible.

Leviathan tries to salvage its creation with control.

Synthesis is the Catalysts solution remember its tried it before.

So mystery race tries to: DESTROY.

Leviathan tries to: CONTROL

Catalyst tries: SYNTHESIS

But Catalyst is shackled? It cant stop the reapers fighting as a result but cant make a decision on our behalf either.

This theory could alter my future trilogy runs if nobody pokes holes in it.

[SentinelMacDeath]

Since every single Reaper is made of 1 specific race this whole thing has gone on for a very long time ... are the Leviathans we encounter still the original leftovers, if yes how long do they live? omg. If not, how do they breed? 

 

I think every single race ever harvested contributed at least a little bit of information to building a weapon ... we're talking about a billion years here, i doubt there was only one race that tried to kill them off. 

[DarkLordAngel916]

i still think it might be the Remnant just a feeling i have can't explain it.

[Kabooooom]

So that theory goes like this:

Leviathan creates catalyst.

Reapers born.

Leviathans hide.

Mystery race find out about the harvest either through orbs or otherwise.

Mystery races builds crucible.

Leviathan tries to salvage its creation with control.

Synthesis is the Catalysts solution remember its tried it before.

So mystery race tries to: DESTROY.

Leviathan tries to: CONTROL

Catalyst tries: SYNTHESIS

But Catalyst is shackled? It cant stop the reapers fighting as a result but cant make a decision on our behalf either.

This theory could alter my future trilogy runs if nobody pokes holes in it.

Essentially, yeah. I think it makes sense for a lot of reasons. Another reason I just thought of is that after the first harvest, the Leviathans would 1) lack the resources to build the Crucible if they designed it and 2) probably wouldn't risk it even if they could somehow possess a species and gather the resources, because doing so might expose their survival to the Reapers.

So they hide, then someone else designs and tries to build the Crucible, and then the Leviathans think "hey, maybe we could modify it somewhat".

After all, they are pretty big into controlling things. They have a bigger hard on for it than TIM.

[ZipZap2000]

i still think it might be the Remnant just a feeling i have can't explain it.

I'd thought about it too. Ties in wth my thoughts on the Rachni war. There's so much unexplained stuff to work with I hope some of it gets a mention in some way.

[ZipZap2000]

Essentially, yeah. I think it makes sense for a lot of reasons. Another reason I just thought of is that after the first harvest, the Leviathans would 1) lack the resources to build the Crucible if they designed it and 2) probably wouldn't risk it even if they could somehow possess a species and gather the resources, because doing so might expose their survival to the Reapers.

So they hide, then someone else designs and tries to build the Crucible, and then the Leviathans think "hey, maybe we could modify it somewhat".

After all, they are pretty big into controlling things. They have a bigger hard on for it than TIM.

Its good I like it.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Now, it's been about 2 years since my last playtrough, so there's a chance I might be wrong about this, but I believe synthesis was the original function, and destroy/control are the derivative ones.

 

I believe Starchild mentions that a solution on the lines of Synthesis was attempted a long time ago, but it wasn't succesful for whatever reason. So I believe that:

 

- either some mistery race was forcibly submitted top a similar process by either the Reapers or synthetics of it's time and could contemplate synthesis as a soultion - or to the Reapers prime direction or the the conflict/harvest itself, sketchinmg the first plans to the crucible

or the Reapers simply tried to turn all the races in whatever cycle into Reapers without removing their free will/connecting them to the reaper hive mind. That would lead to synthesis being devised by said races in an attempt to basically reverse the process on the reapers themselves.

The premise I'm coming up here relies on the hypothesis that the Reapers were not so authorative in the early cycles, nor as efficient as we saw them.

Since the crucible plans would survive and evolve trough several cycles, the functions of ""destroy" and "control" would then be added to the design by other races who were victims of the more traditional cycles, who were clueless to the Repaers true motives and to whom "destroy" or "control" would be the only logical choices.

[ZipZap2000]

Since every single Reaper is made of 1 specific race this whole thing has gone on for a very long time ... are the Leviathans we encounter still the original leftovers, if yes how long do they live? omg. If not, how do they breed?

I think every single race ever harvested contributed at least a little bit of information to building a weapon ... we're talking about a billion years here, i doubt there was only one race that tried to kill them off.

Me3 Leviathans are descended from the creators the memory of what happened was passed down over generations.

[ZipZap2000]

Now, it's been about 2 years since my last playtrough, so there's a chance I might be wrong about this, but I believe synthesis was the original function, and destroy/control are the derivative ones.

I believe Starchild mentions that a solution on the lines of Synthesis was attempted a long time ago, but it wasn't succesful for whatever reason. So I believe that:

- either some mistery race was forcibly submitted top a similar process by either the Reapers or synthetics of it's time and could contemplate synthesis as a soultion - or to the Reapers prime direction or the the conflict/harvest itself, sketchinmg the first plans to the crucible
or the Reapers simply tried to turn all the races in whatever cycle into Reapers without removing their free will/connecting them to the reaper hive mind. That would lead to synthesis being devised by said races in an attempt to basically reverse the process on the reapers themselves.

The premise I'm coming up here relies on the hypothesis that the Reapers were not so authorative in the early cycles, nor as efficient as we saw them.

Since the crucible plans would survive and evolve trough several cycles, the functions of ""destroy" and "control" would then be added to the design by other races who were victims of the more traditional cycles, who were clueless to the Repaers true motives and to whom "destroy" or "control" would be the only logical choices.

Catalyst specifically says synthesis cant be forced on organics. They have to agree so this has merit as well, how would it know otherwise? But at the same time nobody agreed to synthesis but Shepard, if you chose it.

So:

Leviathan hides

Reapers try synthesis

Or: CATALYST tries synthesis and after failing reasons organics cant be tamed and comes up with the cycle.

Leviathans see opportunity

Alter crucible but leaves other options available. "created new possibilities"

Humans are special and genetically diverse (At least in the MEU) which allows non consensual synthesis?

[Display Name Owner]

You know Zarbon from the Power Rangers? Whatever his species was. They designed the Crucible.

 

Really though, I doubt it would've been the Revenant. For one thing, Reapers would seem to be a Milky Way-only problem, but even if it does turn out they were bothering the bunch in Andromeda as well, it would be a bit weird that the Revenant would use a Crucible in their galaxy, which worked, then somehow get the Crucible plans to the Milky Way, and just leave it to the MW people to figure it out. I mean, it would be in the Revenant's interest to deploy a Crucible in the MW to completely eliminate the Reapers, otherwise they could just build up and hassle Andromeda again.

 

Assuming the Reapers were in Andromeda, which again, we've not seen anything to suggest being the case.

 

So honestly I think we'd best just take it at face value - some civilisation created the concept, got to a certain point before being wiped out, the next civilisation happened upon it, developed it further, rinse and repeat until the Protheans got far enough that the current civ could just put it together like a lego set...

Could turn out I'm wrong when Andromeda comes out, but for now this is what I reckon.

[ZipZap2000]

So honestly I think we'd best just take it at face value.

No fun in that at all.

Besides I don't think anyone said the reapers went to Andromeda. Just someone suggesting the crucible design could have come from there.

Nothing to say it has or that it hasn't.

[Display Name Owner]

No fun in that at all.

Besides I don't think anyone said the reapers went to Andromeda. Just someone suggesting the crucible design could have come from there.

Nothing to say it has or that it hasn't.

 

True, true, speculating is more fun. But I mean, what I'm saying is that if the Reapers never went to Andromeda the whole theory becomes meaningless.

[ZipZap2000]

True, true, speculating is more fun. But I mean, what I'm saying is that if the Reapers never went to Andromeda the whole theory becomes meaningless.

Not if they (mystery race from outside the galaxy) showed up and found the place being ripped to shreds by the Reapers though, especially if they witness them using the relays and Citadel to harvest the Galaxy.

In theory they should be just as advanced or more advanced than the reapers, so understanding their tech would be possible.

[Han Shot First]

Me3 Leviathans are descended from the creators the memory of what happened was passed down over generations.

 

This.

 

The Leviathan Shepard talks with refers to itself as the progeny of the galactic-empire Leviathans. We don't know how long-lived the species is, but that bit of dialogue implies that they aren't immortal, and that the survivors of their Reaper War are all long dead.