16 réponses à ce sujet

[DomFP]

This is something that has been bugging for a while, so I've decided to see if anyone here has any input on it.
 
While discussing the topic of her shapeshifting abilities, if you ask Morrigan, "Can you change into other human forms, as well?" she responds with, "I gain nothing by studying another human. I am already the same as they are, I learn nothing. So the answer is no, my human form is the only one I possess."
 
She states she gains nothing from studying another human, but what if she studied, for example, an elf?
 

There probably isn't anything anatomically different between the two besides the pointy ears, so it's likely that there wouldn't be a drastic change of appearance when shapeshifting into an elf, but nonetheless it'd be shapeshifting into something other than a human. Morrigan also mentions through banter with Shale that one must copy a creature's soul in order shapeshift into said creature. (Dialogue of the conversation between to two is in the spoiler below for reference.) I see no reason why the soul of an elf couldn't be copied other than the possibility that the elves' former immortality and its (possible) relation to the soul could make it impossible to copy.

 

Conversation between Shale and Morrigan

Spoiler

Shale: How many other forms can the swamp witch become?
Morrigan: Several.
Shale: Can it become a golem?
Morrigan: Seeking companionship, are you?
Shale: If it could become a golem, I simply wonder why it would not stay that way. It is a superior form.
Morrigan: No, I cannot become a golem. I can learn to become animals, and each form must be learned anew.
Shale: And how does it learn a form? Does it read about it somewhere?
Morrigan: (Laughs) 'Tis not a talent one can read from books! You must copy a creature's soul!
Shale: I do not understand.

Morrigan: Nor should you. Rock is unchanging—allow it to stay that way.

 

I did quick search to see if anyone has made a topic regarding this and found nothing, so I hope I didn't make this despite it already being discussed.

[SwobyJ]

I can see it as technically possible. This is one case where Morrigan's arrogance may, IMO, keep her from testing magical boundaries. Remember in DAO how she considers most other humans.

 

It would certainly be a far cry from Circle and likely Tevinter magic though. It is too scary (to the Circle) + not seen as great as an (accessible) tool as other magics (Blood Magic goals for Tevinter?).

 

That said, though 'time magic' wouldn't seem like a Tevinter thing, experimental magical study certainly is, so it made sense when we saw Alexius' story. So I could see finding out something about this matter.

 

While it should be among the hardest forms to take, a human shapeshifting into an elf, I think, really should be a technically possible thing. There might have to be an extended/special process for it, but if its already a thing to temporarily manipulate one's 'soul' into being of an animal, I can't see why 'elf' would be completely off the table, especially the mortal ones.

 

I just think we should keep in mind that Morrigan's conceptions of 'Shapeshifter' come from her personal experience, knowledge, and biases. And that when she thinks something isn't possible, she's pretty damn stubborn about that point for a while.

 

Shapeshifters don't completely copy the soul of a beast anyway - it seems more like they attune much of their soul, effectively presenting themselves as a physical copy, but still not the SAME thing (I mean - or else they wouldn't be able to control themselves or shift back!). Shapeshifters do illustrate the malliable nature magic and even just life on Thedas, even if 90%+ of Thedosians don't look too deep in that direction.

 

Shapeshifting is now Circle magic too, but I doubt it goes into very advanced forms, or that most mages get deep into it. I can see it returning in a Tevinter focused game though, and I would hope to see if it can address the question you have raised.

 

It should be nearly as hard as 'becoming another person'. Elves are people with consciousness that may be too much for most minds to understand. Beastial urges and habits may simply be much easier.

 

The magic to take human form (and likely elven) exists in Dragon Age. But its been more of an accessible thing to spirits and demons, and often particularly powerful ones. For a mortal mage to do it might have to be special.

[Treacherous J Slither]

I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. All that's required is study of a subject/specimen.

Can probably turn into just about anything really. In DAO you could turn your skin into stone. With enough study, maybe someone can turn themselves into a tree lol.

[Evil Asch]

Morrigan explicitly explains that she can't turn into another person in DA:O, it's likely the same logic applies to other races.

[Treacherous J Slither]

She says that she can't but doesn't say that it's not possible.

She never even tried because she had no interest in doing so.

So it may very well be possible. All it requires is the study of the subject organism. Surely it would be easier to transform into a creature more like yourself than a creature that's more different like a bird.

[SwobyJ]

She says that she can't but doesn't say that it's not possible.

She never even tried because she had no interest in doing so.

So it may very well be possible. All it requires is the study of the subject organism. Surely it would be easier to transform into a creature more like yourself than a creature that's more different like a bird.

 

Not so sure about that last part, at least as long as you consider other sapients to be more complex to understand than a beast. Instincts.

[Lazarillo]

Based on the description, it seems unlikely to me, at least.  Morrigan to shape shift into, say, a spider, Morrigan has to learn to act as a spider would act, move as a spider would move, fight as a spider would fight, etc, etc.  But this can be achieved because a spider is a creature of instinct and natural habit in ways different from humans.  From our perspective, spiders don't generally have differing personalities, but there's no "archetypal" behavior for an elf/dwarf/whatever.  Presumably, their individuality would keep Morrigan from learning to mimic them, the same way it would a human.

[Patchwork]

In theory it would be possible if you limit the study to one person of each species and study every aspect of that person but the end result would probably be a carbon copy of them rather than you as a elf/dwarf/qunari/human.  

[Treacherous J Slither]

Based on the description, it seems unlikely to me, at least. Morrigan to shape shift into, say, a spider, Morrigan has to learn to act as a spider would act, move as a spider would move, fight as a spider would fight, etc, etc. But this can be achieved because a spider is a creature of instinct and natural habit in ways different from humans. From our perspective, spiders don't generally have differing personalities, but there's no "archetypal" behavior for an elf/dwarf/whatever. Presumably, their individuality would keep Morrigan from learning to mimic them, the same way it would a human.

Study the subject organism enough and shift into their likeness.

A shape shifter can study particular individuals and potentially transform into these particular individuals.

It seems quite plausible given the lore.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Not so sure about that last part, at least as long as you consider other sapients to be more complex to understand than a beast. Instincts.

More complex to understand as far as mimicking their behavior and personality but their shape? That should be the easy part.

Actors in the real world today can flawlessly imitate someone that they've studied. A shape shifter mage can do this as well AND copy their form exactly by using actual magic and not merely movie magic like costumes and such.

[SwobyJ]

More complex to understand as far as mimicking their behavior and personality but their shape? That should be the easy part.

Actors in the real world today can flawlessly imitate someone that they've studied. A shape shifter mage can do this as well AND copy their form exactly by using actual magic and not merely movie magic like costumes and such.

 

Perhaps. The comment that the spell requires knowing the soul just gives me the feeling otherwise. That its deeper than looks - even though looks are how it plays out in the realm of Thedas to others seeing it.

[Treacherous J Slither]

I don't remember anything about a soul...

[SwobyJ]

I don't remember anything about a soul...

From OP:

Shale: How many other forms can the swamp witch become?
Morrigan: Several.
Shale: Can it become a golem?
Morrigan: Seeking companionship, are you?
Shale: If it could become a golem, I simply wonder why it would not stay that way. It is a superior form.
Morrigan: No, I cannot become a golem. I can learn to become animals, and each form must be learned anew.
Shale: And how does it learn a form? Does it read about it somewhere?
Morrigan: (Laughs) 'Tis not a talent one can read from books! You must copy a creature's soul!
Shale: I do not understand.
Morrigan: Nor should you. Rock is unchanging—allow it to stay that way.

[Treacherous J Slither]

So animals have souls?

Sounds like bs to me...

[SwobyJ]

So animals have souls?

Sounds like bs to me...

Fictional. Fantasy. Universe.

Anyway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism

 

To translate Morrigan, I'd say she just means that one must highly understand the thing one wants to shapeshift into. In the Kokari Wilds, I can imagine a lone Morrigan tracking every movement, behavior, composition of say, spiders, and feel such a connection to it as a 'soul'.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Fictional. Fantasy. Universe.

Anyway: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism

To translate Morrigan, I'd say she just means that one must highly understand the thing one wants to shapeshift into. In the Kokari Wilds, I can imagine a lone Morrigan tracking every movement, behavior, composition of say, spiders, and feel such a connection to it as a 'soul'.

Some interesting stuff in that link. Wikipedia is amazing isn't it?

Still, no text flat out states that human shifting can't be done. According to the lore it seems quite possible so that's what im sticking with.

[SwobyJ]

Some interesting stuff in that link. Wikipedia is amazing isn't it?

Still, no text flat out states that human shifting can't be done. According to the lore it seems quite possible so that's what im sticking with.

 

Oh we're probably more in agreement on that. I just speculate on its difficulty. I think if its something demons and spirits can do (and they can), its something a mage can do with enough time, effort, knowledge, resources, etc.