Keep in mind, that this theory is working with other theories. And it may seem to be reaching out, but bear with me.
Keep in mind, that this theory is working with other theories. And it may seem to be reaching out, but bear with me.
Maybe but small problem fleMythal want's get revenge on gods who killed her but want to save old gods/archdemons. I would think archdemons are not elven gods but Mythal generals or something who serve Mythal.
But that doesn't particularly make sense. The forgotten ones AND the elvhen pantheon are equally resposible for Mythal's death. If Mythal was someone who loved her people and kept the peace, why would she side with the 'forgotten ones' who cause havoc and chaos?
Solas directly blames and hates the Evanuris for killing Mythal. The Forgotten Ones aren't mentioned at all in her death.
I'm sure the Forgotten Ones aren't great either, but the only thing we know about them is Elvhen propaganda ... and we all know about how that turns out in the end
But that doesn't particularly make sense. The forgotten ones AND the elvhen pantheon are equally resposible for Mythal's death. If Mythal was someone who loved her people and kept the peace, why would she side with the 'forgotten ones' who cause havoc and chaos?
Yes because elven legends so accurate. We don't really know who killed Mythal. Or how evil forgotten ones are history written by winners. Like Solas is so evil trickster god, yes so smart and cunning fails at everything. The only fact is we know Mythal care about archdemons souls on one reason or other, maybe she just want raw power not the soul itself.
We know nothing about forgotten ones perfect name.
wiki.
"Legend suggests the Forgotten Ones were many, but even the names of most of them have been largely lost to time, making their title exceedingly appropriate. Some fragments of lore do remain, however, as do intimations of their intentions."
Yes because elven legends so accurate. We don't really know who killed Mythal. Or how evil forgotten ones are history written by winners. Like Solas is so evil trickster god, yes so smart and cunning fails at everything. The only fact is we know Mythal care about archdemons souls on one reason or other, maybe she just want raw power not the soul itself.
We know nothing about forgotten ones perfect name.
wiki.
"Legend suggests the Forgotten Ones were many, but even the names of most of them have been largely lost to time, making their title exceedingly appropriate. Some fragments of lore do remain, however, as do intimations of their intentions."
Well, you say that it's fact that Mythal is interesterested in the forgotten ones, but that is not mentioned anywhere. That is just speculation and theory as well. Solas seems to be interested, certainly. But Mythal's actions say otherwise, she really just seems to be trying to keep everything in balance. But, now she's gone... But, this is a theory about why Solas dislikes the actions of the Gray Wardens. We're getting a bit off topic.
Yes I agree theory that forgotten ones are old gods is just baseless speculations. No Solas not seems interested Solas just hates/dislikes grey wardens for what reason we don't know. Solas don't even care about Titans he just stand and no comments, he just stare with face like " Don't buy your hallashit."
But now Mythal gone, or is she? Ok I still think archdemons are elven related to all the elven god stuff. Maybe they guarding Mythal and to kill her other gods need to somehow remove her royal guards so locked them in dragon form. Ok to much speculations I just stop her.
I think Solas is just annoyed with Grey Wardens because they are ultimately messing in things they do not understand. They do not understand why Darkspawn exist. They do not understand why they infect the world. They do not understand why they search for the Old Gods. They might be the ones who know the most about Darkspawn and the blight, but they don't actually know a damn thing about it. They take in the blood, they sacrifice themselves to kill the Archdemons, they give their lives to fighting Darkspawn, and they don't even know why. To Solas, that could be seen as idiocy. There could be underlying reasons for this attitude towards them, but from what we know, this is likely the reason. Simple action without thought. Ignorance. For someone like Solas, someone who is an intellectual and who seeks knowledge before acting, watching a group renowned for doing this could make him dislike them.
To me Solas really doesn't like anything about the post veil world and, whatever they were or are, the Old Gods were a part of the world Solas wants to restore, the Grey Wardens kill them so, of course he dislikes them, they are destroying a part of what he is trying to restore. Same reason he dislikes the Dalish, they are post veil, he only wants HIS PEOPLE, meaning pre veil elves. Anything that is not that or destroys what was before the veil, he dislikes.
He would have all of the Elven Gods, the Forgotten Ones and, the Old Gods back where they were before the veil and, ancient elves, like himself the only thing even resembling mortal people and, even they would be immortal. Anything that is not that, or makes a perfect restoration impossible, he does not like.
He likes whatever furthers his personal agenda, he's more Selfish and egotistical than he pretends to be and, a lot less caring than he lets on at time.
I am more of the opinion that Old Gods are somehow important to the world in some way. Like what Yavana says: "There was a time when dragon ruled the world ... the blood of Dragons is the blood of the world"
With Mythal being known as the "Great Protector" and being heavily associated with Dragons, I do believe that Old Gods are special in a way.
In the comics we only saw a glimpse of what diluted Great Dragon blood can do
Good thoughts Qixus. I mostly disagree, but I think some of your ideas are possible and interesting.
You raise a good question about the Joining. I don't remember the lore exactly, but I think it says the Joining was created by Tevinter magisters in cooperation with the Anders who were fighting the Blight. So maybe their rituals involved binding magic of some sort, and maybe this is how Corypheus was able to control them. But the questions are, does Solas know this? And if so, is it his reason for disliking the Grey Wardens?
I don't think it is. I think his dislike for the Wardens is much more generic. There are a lot of people who dislike the Wardens for the things they do. My Hero of Ferelden is one of them. My Champion of Kirkwall was another. The ones who mainly seem to like them are those who are ignorant to their true nature, or those who look past it and only see the tremendous sacrifices they have to make to keep the world safe from the taint. To this extent I don't think Solas' dislike of the Wardens is anything special. He sees the organization for what it really is, he sees how easily they were corrupted and twisted from purpose, and he sees how unwilling they are to ponder alternative methods or possibilities. Of course he won't respect them.
That isn't to say he doesn't respect any of them. He watched the Hero of Ferelden and Alistair light the beacon at Ishal. So he knows that honorable Wardens exist. This might even play into why he doesn't like the organization. He sees so many good men and women go to waste within the order because they are ignored or misused.
It is possible that the darkspawn act similar to the Well of Sorrows, or rather, the taint inside them does. Like how Mythal's consciousness seems to have gone to the Well after her murder, an archdemon that dies from anything other than a Grey Warden will go to the nearest tainted creature. I think you made an interesting connection here, and you're probably right. The Architect talks about the song and how his version of the Joining ritual disconnects the darkspawn from it. They are still probably connected to the taint, but they aren't necessarily controlled by it anymore. This control is probably similar to Mythal's compulsion.
As for the old gods being the Forgotten Ones, that isn't possible. For starters, the old gods endured whatever happened with Solas and the evanuris. They existed before the event, and they existed afterward. They were then worshiped by Tevinter both in the flesh and in spirit. It was said somewhere in the DA:I lore that Razikale even resided in Minrathous for a time. So humans worshiped the old gods in the real world at some point. During this time, Tevinter had rapidly expanded, even into the elven lands. This is where Tevinter picked the bones of the elven empire clean. So this was after Solas banished the evanuris. I don't think Tevinter could really surge until after the evanuris had been dealt with. Before this time, I think they were just call the Neromenians, and they didn't really have a country to speak of until Tevinter. I think I also read that the dwarves allied with the Neromenians and gave them the first real unified language (which is Thedosian, and used in the present day).
Also, the Forgotten Ones do have names. Three of them have been identified, and so far as we know, that's all of them. One of them is Gelduran, and his "tomb" can be found in the Frostback Basin. It is similar to the tombs in the Forbidden Oasis; elven made. There is also a story of one of the Forgotten Ones capturing Fen'Harel, who was being hunted by Andruil. When she caught up to him, she made a claim against this Forgotten One that Fen'Harel was her prey to do with as she pleased. The two of them fought over the right to administer their own justice to Fen'Harel, and in the end both of them wounded each other to the point where Fen'Harel was able to escape. What this suggests is that the Forgotten Ones are like the evanuris. So I don't think the Forgotten Ones are anything like the old gods, which are dragons.
And like I said, the Forgotten One have names, and the names of the old gods are different. But I understand you aren't going to get into this side discussion. Just my thoughts.
As to why Flemeth and Mythal are interested in Urthemiel's soul, I think that's just a matter of one or both of them wanting to preserve ancient magic, power, and knowledge. The soul can be useful to accomplishing Mythal's goals.
Archdemons are not biological prisons for the old gods. An old god is a powerful spirit in the body of a great dragon, and these dragons are physically sealed away underground. To write that the Grey Warden who makes the final blow releases the old god's soul is speculation. As far as we know, the final blow causes the old god's soul to be drawn into that Grey Warden, where the Warden's soul and the old god soul destroy each other completely. It's possible that both souls simply go to the Fade, but this can't be confirmed. As far as we know, the Warden's soul is what blocks the old god soul from reaching its "Well of Sorrows".
I don't think Solas has anything against killing the archdemons. I think his only complaint was in killing the remaining old gods, because doing so probably won't end the darkspawn menace. There will be no more archdemons to rise up to command a blight, but this only means the darkspawn will be more chaotic and misdirected, and will likely make an all out assault on the dwarves and the surface.
According to Solas, the evanuris are locked away because of the Veil. Souls, no matter how powerful, will have no effect in removing the barrier that keeps the evanuris locked away. Besides, Solas himself planned to release the evanuris anyway once his orb was unlocked. He claims he had plans for them.
I am more of the opinion that Old Gods are somehow important to the world in some way. Like what Yavana says: "There was a time when dragon ruled the world ... the blood of Dragons is the blood of the world"
With Mythal being known as the "Great Protector" and being heavily associated with Dragons, I do believe that Old Gods are special in a way.
In the comics we only saw a glimpse of what diluted Great Dragon blood can do
But that could have just been Flemeth's conditioning. Yavana wants to protect the old magic the same way Morrigan wants to, and Flemeth told her, "It because I taught you". So this is probably just some garbage Flemeth made up to make her daughters think preserving these things was necessary, when in fact they are just being used as Mythal's unwitting servants to preserve power for her to claim.
But that could have just been Flemeth's conditioning. Yavana wants to protect the old magic the same way Morrigan wants to, and Flemeth told her, "It because I taught you". So this is probably just some garbage Flemeth made up to make her daughters think preserving these things was necessary, when in fact they are just being used as Mythal's unwitting servants to preserve power for her to claim.
After 300-400 years old? It's heavily unlikely that she hasn't built a criteria for herself, besides, Titus also knew of that, Maric even suggested that Titus was not actually a dreamer but he had such power fue his blood, Qunari seemingly know something too, it's just too much stuff to be only Mythal's claims.
Personally, I suspect that the Queen of Dragons is actually Razikale; if Old Gods are "Kings", then she would be the "Queen", it's bigger than Urthemiel, which makes sense for reptiles' females size, Flemeth seems to be concerned for the Old Gods and finally, Razikale is supposedly sealed somewhere on Tevinter, the Silent Grove it's on Antiva but it's not really far from Tevinter.
I'm not saying dragon's blood doesn't have power, I'm just saying it isn't the lifeblood of the world. Its eradication would not harm the world at all.
That's if Razikale is even female, and I think the jury is still out on that one. It may have been Razikale's priest who was female, not the old god itself.
They adressed Razikale as a female on JoH, I don't remember but I think there was no mention of her priest, the only mention of the priest has been on WoT2, it didn't make clear if it was a man or a woman but it reveals that its nickname was "The Augur"I'm not saying dragon's blood doesn't have power, I'm just saying it isn't the lifeblood of the world. Its eradication would not harm the world at all.
That's if Razikale is even female, and I think the jury is still out on that one. It may have been Razikale's priest who was female, not the old god itself.
Right, but the Jaws of Hakkon codices could be showing Razikale worshipers believing Razikale is female without actually knowing it for certain. It's possible that the voice they heard speaking to them was Razikale's female priest, who would have gone silent upon breaching the Golden City with the rest of the Magisters Sidereal.
Carvings in the Western Approach related to Razikale depict a female holding a horned skull above her, with worshipers underneath her. That could be Razikale's priestess.
In any case, there was a codex in Origins that referred to all of the old gods as male. Not saying this can't be changed, but I don't see any solid evidence that Razikale is female.
It depends, we know what Titans and their blood are capable of doing. And we know that Ancient/ Great Dragons are a different breed (?) from the modern dragons we have in Thedas.
If anything, Old Gods may very well be Primodial/ Ancient Dragons?
Legends speak of a place where dragons go to die. In the far south, in the lands of the barbarian tribes, it is said that a dragon at the end of her days lies down and allows the bitter cold to take her.
It is not just a legend! I have seen Drake's Fall with my own eyes, the ancient bones of these grand beasts piled atop one another. I felt the power that suffused this place and knew the Imperium would claim it.
We built a city on the bones. We delved deep into the earth, collecting what remained of the primordial dragons who were so like our Old Gods. With these bones we created staves for ourmagisters, armour for our warriors, and crowns for our archons. We fashioned phylacteries to hold our blood and sarcophagi to hold our bodies, and prayed they would make us immortal.
--From the writings of Archon Melos
Right, but the Jaws of Hakkon codices could be showing Razikale worshipers believing Razikale is female without actually knowing it for certain. It's possible that the voice they heard speaking to them was Razikale's female priest, who would have gone silent upon breaching the Golden City with the rest of the Magisters Sidereal.
Carvings in the Western Approach related to Razikale depict a female holding a horned skull above her, with worshipers underneath her. That could be Razikale's priestess.
In any case, there was a codex in Origins that referred to all of the old gods as male. Not saying this can't be changed, but I don't see any solid evidence that Razikale is female.
I think it is same as Cole I think we all agree he is male. But he as easy could take form of the female. Or Kieran have soul of old god he born as male is it by default or just random coincidence?
If sperm works the same way in Dragon Age as it does in the real world, then I would say it's coincidence. I just don't see how the worshipers would think Razikale is female unless Razikale specifically stated this for some reason. I don't imagine a dragon's voice being identifiably feminine. I think it's more logical to conclude that Razikale's priestess was female, and as a dreamwalker, she contacted the faithful with messages she would receive from Razikale, and of course she would sound female when talking to the faithful.
If sperm works the same way in Dragon Age as it does in the real world, then I would say it's coincidence. I just don't see how the worshipers would think Razikale is female unless Razikale specifically stated this for some reason. I don't imagine a dragon's voice being identifiably feminine. I think it's more logical to conclude that Razikale's priestess was female, and as a dreamwalker, she contacted the faithful with messages she would receive from Razikale, and of course she would sound female when talking to the faithful.
We also have to keep in mind these Codex entries are based off the knowledge of those (in-game characters) who wrote it. Thus, possible that bias and limited knowledge plays a role.
As for Razikale, people have always thought Razikale was female in the 1st Dragon age game.
I can't find the codex that says all Old Gods are male
Well, the stuff of the voices could've been demons, however someone had to knew them, there was statues of them on Tevinter, if someone saw them, they could have noticed differences between Razikale and the others, also, with some metagaming, why the writers would imply that Razikale it's a female if they don't intend to do that?
I doubt the statues were anatomically correct regarding genitals, and I can't see any of the followers asking about it when the old gods appeared before their followers in the flesh.
Razikale: I am the god of mystery. I know all of this world and the next. I bestow wisdom to all who pledge themselves to me. What would my faithful know?
Congregant: Show us your knockers!
Razikale: ![]()
Unfortunately, Sera wouldn't be born until thousands of years later.
My theory on the reason for BioWare phrasing it this way is because they are working toward the introduction of both Razikale in old god form, as well as Razikale's priest. If the priest is female, then she was cursed with the taint along with the other Sidereal. In which case she might be the first broodmother. That would explain where the darkspawn came from. If the Sidereal were the first darkspawn, then that would make only seven of them. Even assuming all were male, would any of them really be knowledgeable or sane enough to put any female through the broodmother process? It starts with force-feeding of darkspawn fluids such as bile and blood. This seems rather specific. They would more likely just taint them or eat them. But a female darkspawn Sidereal would naturally eat her own kind, which advances the broodmother process. So she would already start out tainted, then naturally eat her own kind. This would in turn lead to the broodmother process naturally, and her offspring would learn of the process from her. Of course, it's possible that the Sidereal used some other method, and the darkspawn use their own method because they aren't magisters, but one of them being female and thus the first broodmother seems like a natural storyline to me.
Meeting Razikale in the next game might allow a conversation to take place in which the old god will mention its priestess, the taint, and so on.
I was scared by The Mother in awakening (or at least my human females were; The mother was once a human female) . So nope, nope nope. I don't want another taking Broodmother thanks.
What if Mother is one of original magisters.
What if Mother is one of original magisters.
No, she was awakened by the Archietic who happens to be a Darkspawn Magister so no.