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[ModernAcademic]

I've just replayed the DLC with Loghain in my party and read (once again) the 3 pages of Cailan's exchange of letters with his uncle, Eamon Guerrin and Empress Celene.

 

From what I understand from the exchange, things before Ostagar evolved as follows:

 

1. Celene promised to bring Orlesian Wardens escorted by CHEVALIERS. You know, the same chevaliers who Loghain denounced would refuse to leave Ferelden after they marched in? 

 

2. Cailan was then chastised by Eamon for wanting to participate in the battle. Eamon clearly advised the king to NOT fight alongside the soldiers. And the reason for that was because Cailan hadn't yet produced an heir. If he died in the battlefield, there'd be no one to wear the crown.

Eamon then suggested Cailan cheated on Anora - to set her aside, as the Arl put it - because she was already nearing 30.

 

Now here comes what's truly appalling in this whole affair:

 

3. Celene writes to Cailan, obviously answering some correspondence he had sent to her previously and writes in a VERY INTIMATE TONE suggesting she and the king got together to discuss the subject of making peace between Ferelden and Orlais through "a permanent alliance" (as in marriage).

 

After playing Inquisition, we are well aware of The Game, the way Orlesians do politics. The Game thrives under Celene's rule. So we can safely assume that her intention to marry Cailan was not just for the sake of having an innocent, little marriage. They were not lovebirds. It was a move in The Game. Plainly speaking, it was a deliberate coup to assimilate Ferelden back to the Empire without having to fire a single shot.

 

After reading all those letters, Loghain reacts  with no less than shock and horror at what Cailan was about to do. I initially hated Loghain, like any other regular player, but even before reading the books (Stolen Throne and The Calling) and acknowledging his redeeming qualities , the moment I finished reading the letters, I could only agree with his bewildered reaction and wonder what on earth did the king intend to do.

 

 

WTF Cailan. You were about to hand over Ferelden to the Orlesian Empire through marriage???

 

 

And he was going to cheat on the Queen. Loghain's treachery may have been horrid, leaving soldiers and Wardens behind to die, but THIS was far worse! What kind of king hands his nation on a silver platter TO HIS ENEMIES? A king whose father nearly died when he was just a boy and whose mother was horribly betrayed and assassinated by such enemies?

 

I used to think Cailan was just an enthusiastic young man wronged by Loghain. Another innocent victim of this treacherous elder general, who cared nothing for honour. Now I think Cailan was not just a fool, as Loghain frequently repeated, but completely inept to sit on the throne.

 

 

 

 

And one more thing concerning the future of the Fereldan throne:

 

Arl Eamon is not very satisfied if you choose to marry Alistair and Anora. In Recliffe, right before the Final Battle, he makes it clear the marriage would not have been his first choice. I can't help but keep wondering if he did know that Cailan intended to fall for Celene's trap and betray the Bannorn with his brilliant idea of marrying the Orlesian empress.

 

Because if he did, then his words have a whole different meaning. What he truly said may have meant that he agreed to have Cailan marry Celene, regardless of how it could threaten Ferelden's independence. Even worse is if we speculate further on: what if Eamon suggested the marriage to Cailan? Was he, then, the mastermind behind this great treachery?

 

Which leads to the conclusion that -surprise, surprise! - Loghain was right about there being an Orlesian coup being staged right under Cailan's nose, and was the only teyrn actually lucid enough to see it.

Had Cailan survived Ostagar, Loghain would see Maric's son undo his father's - as well as Rowan's and Loghain's - hard work. Just as he had foreseen.

 

Now excuse me while I go ****** at Cailan's grave. I still dislike Loghain for some of the things he did, but when I think about what Cailan was about to do to Anora and Ferelden...how is he better than his treacherous general? At least Loghain became regent because the threat of the chevaliers was REAL and because Cailan refused to listen to reason, putting his life at risk by ignoring his uncle's advice and joining his army at the battle of Ostagar.

 

And to think I once felt sorry for Cailan...Maker's breath...

[ArcadiaGrey]

All I can say is yes.  All of this.  Whenever anyone says they hate Loghain this post is what I want to say back to them.

 

This is why I'm a big fan of his and wish he wasn't killable in Origins.  He could have had a great impact in future games, but 80% of the time he's just dead so....what a wasted opportunity  

 

The fact that the soldier at the beginning of RtoO says outright 'thank god Loghain retreated, we would have all died as we were massively outnumbered' is totally lost on Alistair annoys me too, cause it's true.  He'd have led his men to their death and they wouldn't have been around for the Battle of Denerim.

[GoldenGail3]

Cailan is an idiot. A total buffon, i don't know how Anora even liked Cailan; He's so stupid. However, I do have my current worldstate as Queen Cousland who romanced and married Alistair, he needs someone to make sure he doesn't do anything stupid, and my Cousland is at his to prevent that from occuring,

[Tidus]

It was Loghain that betrayed Ferelden in many ways and in the process almost doom Ferelden by turning back the Orlesian Gray Wardens that was sorely needed.  It was Loghain that turn his back on his king,engage in a costly civil war that weaken his army  when he should have been more concerned about fighting the blight. He foolishly hired the Crows to kill the last two Greys in Ferelden leaving the AD with no real threat. He almost destroyed the Tower of Magi by allying with Uldred. through promises.

 

Loghain was the real Buffon.He didn't see the real danger that was facing Ferelden the blight and that allowed the Darkspawn to run unchecked throughout Ferelden.   At least Cailan was smart enough to see the danger.

 

Seems the best ally the Darkspawn had was Loghain  since he feared the Orlesians more then the Darkspawn.

 

He will continue to die in my games for his many crimes and his treason.

[springacres]

This, in a nutshell, is why I don't execute Loghain just based on what Alistair said.  Instead, I kill him for his crimes against elves.

 

I think when it comes to the Landsmeet, my F!Cousland is going to have Al duel Loghain to avoid having to make the decision on whether or not to kill him herself.

[Tidus]

This, in a nutshell, is why I don't execute Loghain just based on what Alistair said.  Instead, I kill him for his crimes against elves.

 

I think when it comes to the Landsmeet, my F!Cousland is going to have Al duel Loghain to avoid having to make the decision on whether or not to kill him herself.

 

I just don't kill Loghain on Alistair's say so either, its due to his many crimes and treason like I said..

 

Never thought of having a AI to kill Loghain.. Maybe Shale since she likes to crush things?

[Qis]

But what is wrong with marrying the queen of Orlais, Cailan still a king, doesn't that making Cailan a King of Orlais?

 

Doesn't that make Orlais under Ferelden rule?

 

unless Thedas using female heredity than male, i see no problem...

[Eusark]

It was Loghain that betrayed Ferelden in many ways and in the process almost doom Ferelden by turning back the Orlesian Gray Wardens that was sorely needed. It was Loghain that turn his back on his king,engage in a costly civil war that weaken his army when he should have been more concerned about fighting the blight. He foolishly hired the Crows to kill the last two Greys in Ferelden leaving the AD with no real threat. He almost destroyed the Tower of Magi by allying with Uldred. through promises.

Loghain was the real Buffon.He didn't see the real danger that was facing Ferelden the blight and that allowed the Darkspawn to run unchecked throughout Ferelden. At least Cailan was smart enough to see the danger.

Seems the best ally the Darkspawn had was Loghain since he feared the Orlesians more then the Darkspawn.

He will continue to die in my games for his many crimes and his treason.

This

[Mike3207]

But what is wrong with marrying the queen of Orlais, Cailan still a king, doesn't that making Cailan a King of Orlais?

 

Doesn't that make Orlais under Ferelden rule?

 

unless Thedas using female heredity than male, i see no problem...

No, Ferelden would be a province under Orlesian rule. Cailan might still retain a title, but it would no longer be King. The whole thing would likely have been rejected by the Landsmeet, which is why I suspect Cailan sent Bryce to Orlais to conduct secret negotiations with Orlais.

[AlanC9]

No, Ferelden would be a province under Orlesian rule. Cailan might still retain a title, but it would no longer be King. The whole thing would likely have been rejected by the Landsmeet, which is why I suspect Cailan sent Bryce to Orlais to conduct secret negotiations with Orlais.

Why wouldn't it be a joint monarchy, like Spain under Ferdinand and Isabella? It doesn't make sense to speak of Aragon being a province under Castilian rule, nor the reverse. Probably not stable in the long term, but Ferelden is much more powerful and cohesive relative to Orlais than Aragon was relative to Castile. Or Scotland relative to England, etc.

[Qis]

No, Ferelden would be a province under Orlesian rule. Cailan might still retain a title, but it would no longer be King. The whole thing would likely have been rejected by the Landsmeet, which is why I suspect Cailan sent Bryce to Orlais to conduct secret negotiations with Orlais.

 

It doesn't make sense, when two countries joined by marriage, it become one country and the King rule all, not the Queen. Unless Thedas using female side of hereditary, there is no way Ferelden become under Orlais, that is not how things done in real world. It is because the King will have an heir to rule both countries.

[ArcadiaGrey]

It doesn't make sense, when two countries joined by marriage, it become one country and the King rule all, not the Queen. Unless Thedas using female side of hereditary, there is no way Ferelden become under Orlais, that is not how things done in real world. It is because the King will have an heir to rule both countries.

 

But this isn't the real world.  Women have more standing in Orlais and Ferelden than they did in medieval England.  I always got the impression that if it went ahead Ferelden would be Orlais' ******.  Reading The Stolen Throne you see the attitude Orlesians have to their Ferelden 'dog lords', and there is no way on the Maker's earth that they'd let Cailan rule over them.  So either both kept their own countries, or Ferelden bows to Orlais.  Imo anyway.

[Quorwyf]

 

The fact that the soldier at the beginning of RtoO says outright 'thank god Loghain retreated, we would have all died as we were massively outnumbered' is totally lost on Alistair annoys me too, cause it's true.  He'd have led his men to their death and they wouldn't have been around for the Battle of Denerim.

 

I'm not sure we can take that soldier's opinion as being completely correct since Cauthrien was clearly shocked when Loghain gave the retreat order. Everything we know about her suggests that she has enough experience to know the difference between a winnable battle and a lost one.

[ModernAcademic]

Why wouldn't it be a joint monarchy, like Spain under Ferdinand and Isabella? It doesn't make sense to speak of Aragon being a province under Castilian rule, nor the reverse. Probably not stable in the long term, but Ferelden is much more powerful and cohesive relative to Orlais than Aragon was relative to Castile. Or Scotland relative to England, etc.

Because this is a move in the Game. Cailan would be emperor in name, only. Celene becoming the Queen of Ferelden while remaining the Empress of Orlais would give Orlais free reign to interfere in Ferelden's domestic policy.

She could interfere in the Bannorn and change decades of tradition. She could grant land to Orlesian nobles for "services rendered to the Empire" and any other excuse she needed. If the Bannorn objected to it, all she had to do was to send in her chevaliers. There. You have civil war.

Ferelden's occupation ended only a few years ago. Orlais still regards Ferelden as one of their lost provinces. Their independence was hard won (Stolen Throne). Allow a Ferelden monarch to marry the Empress of Orlais and you have a powerful empire now given free access to disrespect your sovereignity under the guise of conducting normal politics.

[Qis]

But this isn't the real world.  Women have more standing in Orlais and Ferelden than they did in medieval England.  I always got the impression that if it went ahead Ferelden would be Orlais' ******.  Reading The Stolen Throne you see the attitude Orlesians have to their Ferelden 'dog lords', and there is no way on the Maker's earth that they'd let Cailan rule over them.  So either both kept their own countries, or Ferelden bows to Orlais.  Imo anyway.

 

But what about the heir to the throne? Isn't the heir who will rule later after Cailan dead? The Queen cannot hold the other country without an heir from Cailan

[springacres]

I'm not sure we can take that soldier's opinion as being completely correct since Cauthrien was clearly shocked when Loghain gave the retreat order. Everything we know about her suggests that she has enough experience to know the difference between a winnable battle and a lost one.

I've never read that as her being shocked at being asked to retreat.  I think her shock was more that Loghain (for whom, let's face it, she has a case of hero worship) would abandon the field without even attempting to rescue the king.

[ArcadiaGrey]

I've never read that as her being shocked at being asked to retreat.  I think her shock was more that Loghain (for whom, let's face it, she has a case of hero worship) would abandon the field without even attempting to rescue the king.

 

Yep, and Cauthrien left the battlefield whereas the soldier was down there in the trenches.  He's also a trusted man if memory serves so I believe his account.

[Tidus]

I've never read that as her being shocked at being asked to retreat.  I think her shock was more that Loghain (for whom, let's face it, she has a case of hero worship) would abandon the field without even attempting to rescue the king.

Yes, She was shocked and when she asked about the King and Loghain grab her arm and said 'Do as I say!"

 

He had planed to abandon the field before the battle started.

 

His snaky reply to Cailan, 'Yes,a glorious day for us all".  That was the clue he had something planned.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

It was Loghain that betrayed Ferelden in many ways and in the process almost doom Ferelden by turning back the Orlesian Gray Wardens that was sorely needed.  He foolishly hired the Crows to kill the last two Greys in Ferelden leaving the AD with no real threat.

 

His snaky reply to Cailan, 'Yes,a glorious day for us all".  That was the clue he had something planned.

In Loghain's mind why he  need  GW to stop the blight,for what reason?

Why a bunch of soldiers should have made any difference?

Pointless retribution is worth  nothing,as i always opt for the Loghain redemption ending which is in fact a very practical death/ending.

 

 

No that's only your imagination,headcanon

[Iakus]

I've just replayed the DLC with Loghain in my party and read (once again) the 3 pages of Cailan's exchange of letters with his uncle, Eamon Guerrin and Empress Celene.

 

From what I understand from the exchange, things before Ostagar evolved as follows:

 

1. Celene promised to bring Orlesian Wardens escorted by CHEVALIERS. You know, the same chevaliers who Loghain denounced would refuse to leave Ferelden after they marched in? 

 

2. Cailan was then chastised by Eamon for wanting to participate in the battle. Eamon clearly advised the king to NOT fight alongside the soldiers. And the reason for that was because Cailan hadn't yet produced an heir. If he died in the battlefield, there'd be no one to wear the crown.

Eamon then suggested Cailan cheated on Anora - to set her aside, as the Arl put it - because she was already nearing 30.

 

Now here comes what's truly appalling in this whole affair:

 

3. Celene writes to Cailan, obviously answering some correspondence he had sent to her previously and writes in a VERY INTIMATE TONE suggesting she and the king got together to discuss the subject of making peace between Ferelden and Orlais through "a permanent alliance" (as in marriage).

 

After playing Inquisition, we are well aware of The Game, the way Orlesians do politics. The Game thrives under Celene's rule. So we can safely assume that her intention to marry Cailan was not just for the sake of having an innocent, little marriage. They were not lovebirds. It was a move in The Game. Plainly speaking, it was a deliberate coup to assimilate Ferelden back to the Empire without having to fire a single shot.

 

After reading all those letters, Loghain reacts  with no less than shock and horror at what Cailan was about to do. I initially hated Loghain, like any other regular player, but even before reading the books (Stolen Throne and The Calling) and acknowledging his redeeming qualities , the moment I finished reading the letters, I could only agree with his bewildered reaction and wonder what on earth did the king intend to do.

 

 

WTF Cailan. You were about to hand over Ferelden to the Orlesian Empire through marriage???

 

 

And he was going to cheat on the Queen. Loghain's treachery may have been horrid, leaving soldiers and Wardens behind to die, but THIS was far worse! What kind of king hands his nation on a silver platter TO HIS ENEMIES? A king whose father nearly died when he was just a boy and whose mother was horribly betrayed and assassinated by such enemies?

 

I used to think Cailan was just an enthusiastic young man wronged by Loghain. Another innocent victim of this treacherous elder general, who cared nothing for honour. Now I think Cailan was not just a fool, as Loghain frequently repeated, but completely inept to sit on the throne.

 

 

 

 

And one more thing concerning the future of the Fereldan throne:

 

Arl Eamon is not very satisfied if you choose to marry Alistair and Anora. In Recliffe, right before the Final Battle, he makes it clear the marriage would not have been his first choice. I can't help but keep wondering if he did know that Cailan intended to fall for Celene's trap and betray the Bannorn with his brilliant idea of marrying the Orlesian empress.

 

Because if he did, then his words have a whole different meaning. What he truly said may have meant that he agreed to have Cailan marry Celene, regardless of how it could threaten Ferelden's independence. Even worse is if we speculate further on: what if Eamon suggested the marriage to Cailan? Was he, then, the mastermind behind this great treachery?

 

Which leads to the conclusion that -surprise, surprise! - Loghain was right about there being an Orlesian coup being staged right under Cailan's nose, and was the only teyrn actually lucid enough to see it.

Had Cailan survived Ostagar, Loghain would see Maric's son undo his father's - as well as Rowan's and Loghain's - hard work. Just as he had foreseen.

 

Now excuse me while I go ****** at Cailan's grave. I still dislike Loghain for some of the things he did, but when I think about what Cailan was about to do to Anora and Ferelden...how is he better than his treacherous general? At least Loghain became regent because the threat of the chevaliers was REAL and because Cailan refused to listen to reason, putting his life at risk by ignoring his uncle's advice and joining his army at the battle of Ostagar.

 

And to think I once felt sorry for Cailan...Maker's breath...

1) Yes Chevaliers would be brought in to support the Wardens.  It sort of makes sense, as any true Blight has in the past required the combined aid of several nations helping the Wardens.  That Orlais is Ferelden's closest neighbor, and their recent history is...unfortunate

 

2) "Set aside" is actually an old euphamism for "divorce." Eamon hints that she is infertile and thus can't produce an heir.  And that Cailan shold find someone who can.

 

3) Yep, Celene hoped to bring Ferelden back to Orlais without an invasion.  Any child the two had would be heir to both thrones, thus uniting the nations "permanently"

 

Fun fact:  These details were originally supposed to come to light during the Landsmeet portion of DAO, and help explain Loghain's paranoia.  he was supposed to already know all this, and explains why he left Cailan to die at Ostagar.

[Tidus]

In Loghain's mind why he  need  GW to stop the blight,for what reason?

Why a bunch of soldiers should have made any difference?

Pointless retribution is worth  nothing,as i always opt for the Loghain redemption ending which is in fact a very practical death/ending.

 

 

No that's only your imagination,headcanon

No,Loghain had to pay for his crimes as well as treason period. He was a diluted creature that lost all reasoning. Killing him is a act of mercy.  Justice was and will be rendered in my games for his actions.

 

In the days of my youth I learn to "Know thy enemies" and from that lesson I saw the snake Loghain was.

[ModernAcademic]

2) "Set aside" is actually an old euphamism for "divorce." Eamon hints that she is infertile and thus can't produce an heir.  And that Cailan shold find someone who can.

 

There is no evidence in the game that Anora is infertile, only Eamon's mention of "Anora reaching 30" and "Cailan still not having an heir".

 

Granted, Cailan and Anora have been married for quite a while. But this is an assumption most players make from Eamon's letter to Cailan. His words about Anora reaching 30 can be interpreted in more than one way.

 

The fact that Anora is reaching 30 means she'll soon enter menopause. It tends to begin around that age, between 35~45 years. Therefore, the likelyhood of the Queen producing an heir is quickly decreasing. This might also be a plausible interpretation of Eamon's words and the reason for his concern.

 

I've actually seen some fans speculate on Tumblr that it was Cailan who might've been infertile, since he had lain down with other women in the past (remember Anora telling you she had to ignore Cailan's infidelity many times?) and never managed to produce any bastard children. At least none that we, the player, know of.

 

Because we lack more info from the game, it's difficult to determine who is to blame for the lack of a prince: the king or the queen? However, the blame usually tends to fall on the woman, not on the man. So it's understandable why the players automatically assume Anora is the infertile one. 

[Qis]

Cailan married with Celene and having an heir who will rule both countries is far more better than let Cailan die in Ostagar without an heir and in result an endless civil war among Fereldens

 

Loghain is wrong about everything, all that happened for 1 year in Ferelden is because of Loghain paranoia and short sighted plans

 

Should they wait for Orlesians troops and Grey Warden, they could defeat the Darkspawn at Ostagar easier. Should Cailan married with Celene, both Orlais and Ferelden united become one strong nation

[AlanC9]

Because this is a move in the Game. Cailan would be emperor in name, only. Celene becoming the Queen of Ferelden while remaining the Empress of Orlais would give Orlais free reign to interfere in Ferelden's domestic policy.
She could interfere in the Bannorn and change decades of tradition. She could grant land to Orlesian nobles for "services rendered to the Empire" and any other excuse she needed. If the Bannorn objected to it, all she had to do was to send in her chevaliers. There. You have civil war.
Ferelden's occupation ended only a few years ago. Orlais still regards Ferelden as one of their lost provinces. Their independence was hard won (Stolen Throne). Allow a Ferelden monarch to marry the Empress of Orlais and you have a powerful empire now given free access to disrespect your sovereignity under the guise of conducting normal politics.

Trying to unify the two states that way wouldn't work; as you say, it would just lead to civil war. Are you saying Celine would have been stupid enough to try it anyway? And that Cailan would have gone along with it?

Edit: what I mean is, how does swapping out Fereldan nobles for Orlesian nobles help Celine? She'd be queen already; she's won . Destabilizing the situation in Ferelden gains her... what, exactly?

[ModernAcademic]

Trying to unify the two states that way wouldn't work; as you say, it would just lead to civil war. Are you saying Celine would have been stupid enough to try it anyway? And that Cailan would have gone along with it?

Edit: what I mean is, how does swapping out Fereldan nobles for Orlesian nobles help Celine? She'd be queen already; she's won . Destabilizing the situation in Ferelden gains her... what, exactly?

 

Once you have the right to rule a nation, you don't simply leave it be. You need to ensure the loyalty of the people. To yourself and their future king\emperor.

 

And how do you ensure the loyalty of a people who was massacred and humilliated by your predecessors? 

 

 

Here are a few things in Celene's to-do-list once she managed to marry Cailan:

 

1. Avoiding rebellions of Banns who were against her marriage with Cailan.

Solution: Ensuring vital Orlesian presence within Ferelden territory. Banns wish to revolt? Fine. She calls upon her allies, Orlesian landowners in Ferelden, to subdue the revolts with their chevaliers.

 

2. Changing tradition to make the people understand and accept Orlesian culture.

You are the powerful empress of two nations...and one of them can't bear to look at a painted, masked woman.

How is the future heir supposed to be loved and accepted by the people of Ferelden if he's "contaminated" with Orlesian culture?

The only way is to interfere in in Ferelden's culture and impregante it with Orlesian values.

 

The Roman Empire and the European Crusaders adopted a similar policy to the various peoples they conquered...look at their legacy. Look at the countries the United States invaded or backed up political parties or revolutionary groups to throw a coup d'État and implement dictatorships.

 

 

3. Laws must be obeyed. But whose laws?

Is Ferelden going to remain an independent nation or must it bow down to the Empress' will now? Must it pay taxes to this new government? Must the banns obey Orlesian law now that Ferelden has an empress?

Solution: Celene would use Cailan to introduce reforms in taxation and law. Paying taxes is the oldest form to force a people to demonstrate obedience.

 

And why would Celene bother with this at all? Because the Orlesian nobility would start claiming rights to the newly-annexed neighboring land.

Remember, the Orlesians were banished from Ferelden. They would immediately claim their lost rights and pry concessions out of her.

 

And why would the Orlesian nobility want to do this? Because this is how power works. My neighbor has lands and is weaker than me? I want them.

 

If Celene failed to attend to their interests, to make a display of power toward Ferelden, be it in any form, the Orlesian nobility would consider it weakness on her part. Her enemies would then attempt to exploit it. They would blackmail her, manipulate her, do whatever was necessary to place someone in power who wouldn't be "weak". Who wouldn't hesitate to take advantage of that province right next door.

 

Either Celene attended their interests or she could lose the crown. Or the nobility would be in a rush to gain her child's favor and form alliances with the prince\princess as soon as possible. Then the future ruler of Orlais would have to find some way to maintain these alliances and Ferelden would suffer. Simple as that.

 

 

And to conclude this post, the most important consideration of all: why would Orlais bother to subjugate Ferelden in any way, economically, legally, military and\or culturally?

 

 

Because they are the stronger nation of the two. Because in the mind of Orlesian nobility, Ferelden was already theirs to begin with, such as many other small nations they annexed. Once annexed, Ferelden's independence would be a hiccup in the history of "their lost province" and all would go back to the way it were.

 

You conquer your neighbor through marriage and you think the nobility in your country would want peace?

 

Nobody would want peace. The Orlesian nobles would want lands. Plus whatever advantage they could find, and that they always managed to rip off of weak nations.