122 réponses à ce sujet

[GoldenGail3]

Trying to unify the two states that way wouldn't work; as you say, it would just lead to civil war. Are you saying Celine would have been stupid enough to try it anyway? And that Cailan would have gone along with it?
Edit: what I mean is, how does swapping out Fereldan nobles for Orlesian nobles help Celine? She'd be queen already; she's won . Destabilizing the situation in Ferelden gains her... what, exactly?

Thusly, I delcare Cailan an idiot. He's.... WHY? WHY WOULD YOU DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT CAILAN!

[AlanC9]

@ ModernAcademic: Does that program actually strike you as workable? What's the historical precedent?

@GoldenGail3: Cailan's thinking that it wouldn't go like that. Would he be right? Depends on how divorced from reality Celine is.

[GoldenGail3]

Does that program actually strike you as workable?

What are you talking about?

(I'm so happy, I got someone to say f--- you, I'm leaving. And it was a DA2 fan too. I am not surpised a DA2 fan told me to go f--- myself. I deserved it, but I won! I did!)

[AlanC9]

Post edited above -- you slipped in between me and what I was replying to.

Who'd you manage to tick off, anyway?

[GoldenGail3]

Post edited above -- you slipped in between me and what I was replying to.
Who'd you manage to tick off, anyway?

OH.

AnimalBoy.

[GoldenGail3]

@ ModernAcademic: Does that program actually strike you as workable? What's the historical precedent?
@GoldenGail3: Cailan's thinking that it wouldn't go like that. Would he be right? Depends on how divorced from reality Celine is.

I know! That's why he's an idiot. Letting bloody Orlais rule over Ferelden; stupid.

[Tidus]

Thusly, I delcare Cailan an idiot. He's.... WHY? WHY WOULD YOU DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT CAILAN!

 

The real idiot was Loghain.. He almost doom Ferelden. Why would he do that? Because he was mentally unstable and couldn't or wouldn't grasp the seriousness of the Darkspawn invasion.. Even at the Landsmeet he was more worried about the Orlesians then the Darkspawn-the Southern part of Ferelden had already fell to the Blight.

 

At least Cailan was smart enough to see the danger. His fatal mistake was trusting Loghain.

[Qis]

Actually, marriage between a King of a country with a queen of a country will favor the King, not the Queen. It is a very strong alliance that unite the whole land under the KING...and the King will provide an heir with his own bloodline.

 

Weak alliance through marriage is only if the ones who married are prince and princess, this is weak because the head of the country might change his mind and don't care later. It also problematic one of the head of the state died, the other might cancell the alliance despite the marriage. And this alliance will favor the male side, the prince, not the princess, because the princess must follow her husband, or might be held captive.

 

So Loghain paranoia is not justified, he forgot who is king....like Cailan said "don't forget who is king"

[straykat]

 

 

 

So Loghain paranoia is not justified, he forgot who is king....like Cailan said "don't forget who is king"

 

That's true for the time being.. but at the same time, kings and monarchies are a bunch of bullshit. It's why we started killing them in real life too. And why most western national heroes are commoners and generals like Loghain.

 

Ferelden is in a sort of crossroads. I think it's monarchy is OK for the time being, but it's already changing.

 

Cailan's redeeming quality is that he was a decent guy. That's the main reason Loghain shouldn't have killed him. Not because he's king.

[Qis]

Because of Loghain, Ferelden could lost the monarch system, Cailan dead without an heir, and if Alistair also dead, then there is an endless civil war for the throne, not to mention that they will destroyed by the Blight.

 

Should Flemeth is too late or don't save The Warden and Alistair, Ferelden is doomed because of Loghain

[ArcadiaGrey]

[quote name="ModernAcademic" post="19968393" timestamp="1450926589"]
The fact that Anora is reaching 30 means she'll soon enter menopause. It tends to begin around that age, between 35~45 years. Therefore, the likelyhood of the Queen producing an heir is quickly decreasing. This might also be a plausible interpretation of Eamon's words and the reason for his concern.
/quote]

 

Dammit, I typed that on my tablet and messed up the quote....

Okay I just have to point out that menopause starts around 45-50, not 30. 

Anora's got plenty of time yet  

[Illegitimus]

Thusly, I delcare Cailan an idiot. He's.... WHY? WHY WOULD YOU DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT CAILAN!

 

Do something like...what?  Having Eamon raise the issue of Anora's childlessness, and having Celine raise the issue of a potential marriage alliance doesn't actually mean that Cailan has committed himself to anything.  He has not in fact made a move as yet to set Anora aside.  Arguendem, suppose that Cailan is stringing Celine along.  He thinks he may need the help of Orlais's military to defeat the darkspawn invasion, but is worried that they may try to outstay their welcome.  Wouldn't it be rather clever to dangle such a prospect in front of Celine, giving her the impression that the gullible and unsubtle Ferelden will give her what she wants without a fight, and so there's no need to start one?  Would that mean he's still an idiot?  

 

Or what if he's not doing anything so planned, but Celine is just dangling a hook to see if he'll bite...but he won't?

 

That being said, Celine might not actually be interested in retaking Ferelden.  Maybe she just wants a "husband" who is safely far away from Val Royeaux and won't try to usurp her own rule but will discourage the excessive number of Orlesian noblemen who have been pushing her to let them in. A marriage with a man of equal rank would secure her position as Empress, while she leaves him to run his own playground.  

[straykat]

Because of Loghain, Ferelden could lost the monarch system, Cailan dead without an heir, and if Alistair also dead, then there is an endless civil war for the throne, not to mention that they will destroyed by the Blight.

 

Should Flemeth is too late or don't save The Warden and Alistair, Ferelden is doomed because of Loghain

 

The monarch system needs to go eventually. That's no big loss. I just don't think it needed to happen in this way.

[Iakus]

There is no evidence in the game that Anora is infertile, only Eamon's mention of "Anora reaching 30" and "Cailan still not having an heir".

 

Granted, Cailan and Anora have been married for quite a while. But this is an assumption most players make from Eamon's letter to Cailan. His words about Anora reaching 30 can be interpreted in more than one way.

 

The fact that Anora is reaching 30 means she'll soon enter menopause. It tends to begin around that age, between 35~45 years. Therefore, the likelyhood of the Queen producing an heir is quickly decreasing. This might also be a plausible interpretation of Eamon's words and the reason for his concern.

 

I've actually seen some fans speculate on Tumblr that it was Cailan who might've been infertile, since he had lain down with other women in the past (remember Anora telling you she had to ignore Cailan's infidelity many times?) and never managed to produce any bastard children. At least none that we, the player, know of.

 

Because we lack more info from the game, it's difficult to determine who is to blame for the lack of a prince: the king or the queen? However, the blame usually tends to fall on the woman, not on the man. So it's understandable why the players automatically assume Anora is the infertile one. 

I never said there's in-game evidence.  Only that Eamon's letter suggests it.  He may in fact be mistaken.

 

And yes, it could very well have been a problem on Cailan's end.  We'll never know for sure, though.

 

Trying to unify the two states that way wouldn't work; as you say, it would just lead to civil war. Are you saying Celine would have been stupid enough to try it anyway? And that Cailan would have gone along with it?

Edit: what I mean is, how does swapping out Fereldan nobles for Orlesian nobles help Celine? She'd be queen already; she's won . Destabilizing the situation in Ferelden gains her... what, exactly?

My own theory was that Celene intended to play the long game, and let Cailan rule Ferelden separately from Orlais.  And that the crown would pass to any child they had together to effectively unite teh two nations.

[Qis]

The monarch system needs to go eventually. That's no big loss. I just don't think it needed to happen in this way.

 

They are not ready for a democracy, Ferelden will become like Middle East, ruled by warlords and terrorists....

[Tidus]

Looking at the bigger picture not only did Loghain endangered Ferelden but,all of Thedas. Had Ferelden fell the blight would have moved to the next country.

[LorenzEffect]

I've read on the Dragon Age wiki that the Chantry allows annulments but not divorces. So if Cailan survived Ostagar and divorced Anora, would he still be able to marry Celene and unite the nations without the Chantry's support? Would it make a difference to how the the subsequent conflicts would play out?

[Mike3207]

I've read on the Dragon Age wiki that the Chantry allows annulments but not divorces. So if Cailan survived Ostagar and divorced Anora, would he still be able to marry Celene and unite the nations without the Chantry's support? Would it make a difference to how the the subsequent conflicts would play out?

Good question.

 

My answer is that politics make strange bedfellows, and that a lot would depend on how much the Chantry wanted a reapproachment between Orlais and Ferelden, and how much money Cailan would have been willing to spend to buy their support, as well as what additional political concessions he was willing to give the Chantry to make the marriage happen.

 

It might have made a small difference, but I always tend to think most general events will happen, it's just minor details that might change.

[Tidus]

Mike3207,While I think King Cailan and Queen Celene wanted their countries to become friendlier I don't think the Nobles in either country would allow that due to their petty hate for Orlais or Ferelden.

 

We can plainly see how Loghain's hate for the orlesians blinded him to the true enemy, the Darkspawn, and that hate drove him to turn his back on his King at Ostagar and later his own daughter the Queen.. Even though the Southern part of Ferelden fell to the Darkspawn his biggest argument at the Landsmeet was about keeping the Orlesians out and about Eamond wanting to put a puppet on throne that would allow Orlais to enter Ferelden.

 

Then when the Landsmeet rule in favor of using Wardens to end the blight,we see exactly how derange Loghain was when he flew into a hissy fit.

[Deadly dwarf]

One of the great things about this game is how three-dimensional so many of the characters are!  One make rational, passionate arguments in favor or against almost every character -- Arl Howe and the Darkspawn being exceptions.

 

I will make the "Loghain is a traitor" argument.  Looking at the tactical situation at the Battle of Ostagar, one should remember that there is a considerable distance between Loghain's forces and those of Cailan.  That's why it's necessary for soldiers in the Tower of Ishal to signal Loghain once those in the tower see whatever signal Duncan sends to the tower.  Therefore, you shouldn't confuse what you can see as a player during the Battle of Ostagar cut scenes with what Loghain can see from his position.  Why does he quit the field?  My theory is that he was somehow aware of Cailan's diplomacy with the Orlesians and concerns over Anora's failure to deliver an heir of the throne and acted accordingly.  His actions are understandable, but still treason.  One may question the wisdom of Cailan's dealings with the Orlesians, but he is still acting within his right as king when he engages in this diplomacy.

 

Another point which strikes me is the way Duncan's commitment to secrecy certainly made the situation worse.  By the end of the game, we finally find out why the Wardens are necessary to kill the Archdemon -- the taint within them draws the soul of the AD to the warden that kills it and thus preventing the AD from going into the body of another Darkspawn.  Other than that, there's really nothing that separates Alistair -- for example -- from other templars, a mage warden from circle mages, etc.  Therefore, why in the world does Duncan allow Cailan to concentrate all the Fereldan wardens in one place in the most dangerous part of the battlefield?  If anything, the wardens should've been held in reserve until the AD finally showed itself.  If anything, Duncan should have taken Cailan and Loghain aside to explain this to them.  Perhaps that would've led to a more rational battle strategy with respect to what to do with the wardens.  Perhaps telling them that he (Duncan) had already seen the AD in his dream and that this was a true Blight would've compelled Cailan and Loghain to at least wait for Arl Eamon's forces to arrive before forcing an engagement with the Darkspawn.  Oh well...

[Tidus]

Loghain must have feared two Arls since he ordered their deaths-Arl Cousland and Arl Eamond.

 

Duncan main fault is he fully believes in the Greys and keeping their secretes and kill Ser Jory to protect the joining.Yet,he was wrong in doing that since several people knew what the joining consisted of two come to mine Leliana and Queen Anora.Flemth and Morrigan may also knew.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

No,Loghain had to pay for his crimes as well as treason period. He was a diluted creature that lost all reasoning. Killing him is a act of mercy. Justice was and will be rendered in my games for his actions.

In the days of my youth I learn to "Know thy enemies" and from that lesson I saw the snake Loghain was.

We agree to disagree, ultimatly it is irrelevant as Solas said that battle at Ostagar was a fool errand and Loghain didn't believed that the GW were importants.
He still die in my game but alongside the old god so that Flemeth may fail in her plans thus make the victory of the Warden less hollow.

[straykat]

They are not ready for a democracy, Ferelden will become like Middle East, ruled by warlords and terrorists....

 

Maybe they will. They've been that already though.. until Calenhad. That's practically what Teyrns and barbarian factions were before.

 

This is also one of the importances of the Chantry though.. it smoothes out political conflict. And some of those former warlords became Andrastian and chilled out (the Ash Warriors). It's also one of the points Josephine makes about religion (but she was talking about whole nations getting along better, when they have shared values). The reason the mideast and other places get that way is because they're struggling for a unifying belief (Shia/Sunni... with Jews and Christians adding complications to the mix).

 

Err... I'm probably getting carried away with the comparison

[Tidus]

We agree to disagree, ultimatly it is irrelevant as Solas said that battle at Ostagar was a fool errand and Loghain didn't believed that the GW were importants.
He still die in my game but alongside the old god so that Flemeth may fail in her plans thus make the victory of the Warden less hollow.

 

Actually Loghain doom his self in my games..His death is for his crimes,treason and selling Elves into slavery..No way would I want that asp at my back carrying a sword,daggers or bow.

 

My warden realizes at that point dying for nothing means nothing and wouldn't change a thing so,he agrees to do Morrigan's DR..My female warden cons Alistair into doing the DR since Alistair still loves her.

[Qis]

Maybe they will. They've been that already though.. until Calenhad. That's practically what Teyrns and barbarian factions were before.

 

This is also one of the importances of the Chantry though.. it smoothes out political conflict. And some of those former warlords became Andrastian and chilled out (the Ash Warriors). It's also one of the points Josephine makes about religion (but she was talking about whole nations getting along better, when they have shared values). The reason the mideast and other places get that way is because they're struggling for a unifying belief (Shia/Sunni... with Jews and Christians adding complications to the mix).

 

Err... I'm probably getting carried away with the comparison

 

What happen in Middle East is not really religious you know, it is more political than religion, the struggle between Shia and Sunni Islam is also political, the split was political historically. The Shia was the supporter of 4th Caliph in Islam, while Sunni accept whoever being elected as Caliph. That's was the original feud between Shia and Sunni. Then the caliphate system fall when Islam spread outside Arabia region, the non-Arabs don't want to be ruled by Arab Caliphs, so they have their own rulers. There you got Abbassid of Persians, Ottoman of Turk, AlMohad of Moors, Fatimid of Egypt and so on. That's in medieval era.

 

The Ottoman was the ruler of a large part of Middle East, they are considered as the "Caliph" of all Muslims, not really a Caliph in sense of ruling but as an honorable title, somekind of a patron of all Muslim kingdoms in Middle East and Asia. When Ottoman fall, there you got a problem in Middle East, because there is no longer the one who powerful enough to hold everyone, so hell break loose....it was Ottoman who keep peace in that region, the most strongest and advance in their time, when they gone, all other warlords start to show their fangs...up to today it is always like that in Middle East, it is their way, democracy will never work or just don't work in that part of the world.

 

So the same here, it was Tehirin bloodline who hold Ferelden, when Cailan fall with no heir, no one powerful enough to hold everyone. Cousland also gone. So really, Ferelden will become like Middle East. You must remember that every Banns or Arls or nobles or whatever, have ther own army...if ever they are going into democracy, it will not going to be overnight. Loghain manage to hold everyone for a time being just because of his own position and fame, but as we can see even that is not a guarantee for him. Civil war happen during Blight, imagine that...