122 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

What happen in Middle East is not really religious you know, it is more political than religion, the struggle between Shia and Sunni Islam is also political, the split was political historically. The Shia was the supporter of 4th Caliph in Islam, while Sunni accept whoever being elected as Caliph. That's was the original feud between Shia and Sunni. Then the caliphate system fall when Islam spread outside Arabia region, the non-Arabs don't want to be ruled by Arab Caliphs, so they have their own rulers. There you got Abbassid of Persians, Ottoman of Turk, AlMohad of Moors, Fatimid of Egypt and so on. That's in medieval era.

 

The Ottoman was the ruler of a large part of Middle East, they are considered as the "Caliph" of all Muslims, not really a Caliph in sense of ruling but as an honorable title, somekind of a patron of all Muslim kingdoms in Middle East and Asia. When Ottoman fall, there you got a problem in Middle East, because there is no longer the one who powerful enough to hold everyone, so hell break loose....it was Ottoman who keep peace in that region, the most strongest and advance in their time, when they gone, all other warlords start to show their fangs...up to today it is always like that in Middle East, it is their way, democracy will never work or just don't work in that part of the world.

 

So the same here, it was Tehirin bloodline who hold Ferelden, when Cailan fall with no heir, no one powerful enough to hold everyone. Cousland also gone. So really, Ferelden will become like Middle East. You must remember that every Banns or Arls or nobles or whatever, have ther own army...if ever they are going into democracy, it will not going to be overnight. Loghain manage to hold everyone for a time being just because of his own position and fame, but as we can see even that is not a guarantee for him. Civil war happen during Blight, imagine that...

 

Haha.. I appreciate the reply. But now I feel guilty for extending the comparison. Look what I've done.

 

The fall of the Ottomans is definitely important, but you went into more things I didn't know about. So I thank you for informing me further. I still think Ferelden has more going for it though.

[Qis]

Democracy is not for all people, some people just can't sit together and talk, some people need someone powerful to dictate them, it is just their way. Well, Middle Eastern people live in harsh place, hot, dusty, they have history of wars, tribal wars, they are historically living in a condition where the strongest will survive, they have to be strong, and only the strong can rule them. Only the strong who can make others bow down. They respect the strong. Do you think democracy will work for them? No. They will never accept defeat, there is no give and take in this matter. The loosing side will rebel, the winning side will use every means to stay in power. Democracy simply failed there, incompatible....lol (and the west know this....)

 

Ferelden will not be far difference, the Landsmeet itself is not quite functional, in the end you still have to duel Loghain, meaning the strong will survive, they only listen to the strong

[Tidus]

Qis,Been thinking.. It must be embarrassing to Logain to be defeated by a Elf especially a female.

 

Loghain is a strong warrior and the Hero of River Dane and was defeated and killed by a supposedly  inferior race...OUCH!  Kinda feel sorry for him even though he  made a one way trip to the funny farm.

[Qis]

Well, that what happen when put modern values into medieval world....women beating men is rare, it does happen but rare, usually only happen in battle either women disguise as men, women wearing armor that don't look like women armor, or the battle is to chaotic and no one aware who's killing who...to duel with men is non-existence in medieval as far as i know, no men will accept a challenge from women, it's against chivalry.

[Tidus]

Qis,My warden is usually wearing the commanders armor from Soldiers Peak without a helmet. Of course to gain the upper hand she stuns Loghain and follows up with several rogue and duelist fighting techniques.. Loghain isn't exactly a pushover even on easy.

 

I use easy because I have limited use of my right hand and need to use my left hand a lot on the right side of the controller so, I found there's no real reason to make the game any harder for me..

[Qis]

One of my Warden using magic on him, if that even a fair duel....

[straykat]

Democracy is not for all people, some people just can't sit together and talk, some people need someone powerful to dictate them, it is just their way. Well, Middle Eastern people live in harsh place, hot, dusty, they have history of wars, tribal wars, they are historically living in a condition where the strongest will survive, they have to be strong, and only the strong can rule them. Only the strong who can make others bow down. They respect the strong. Do you think democracy will work for them? No. They will never accept defeat, there is no give and take in this matter. The loosing side will rebel, the winning side will use every means to stay in power. Democracy simply failed there, incompatible....lol (and the west know this....)

 

Ferelden will not be far difference, the Landsmeet itself is not quite functional, in the end you still have to duel Loghain, meaning the strong will survive, they only listen to the strong

 

You're forgetting that Ferelden was freed by a slave though. Andraste. They remember that, while Orlesians probably don't. And they're very independent, despite having kings. This was one of the cool exchanges between Maric and Loghain. Or Rowan and Katriel. People are more respected for their merits there. It's just something they haven't entirely embraced.. but it's a start. They have traditions worth building on, and aren't destined to be whipped in line.

 

 

 

Qis,Been thinking.. It must be embarrassing to Logain to be defeated by a Elf especially a female.

 

Loghain is a strong warrior and the Hero of River Dane and was defeated and killed by a supposedly  inferior race...OUCH!  Kinda feel sorry for him even though he  made a one way trip to the funny farm.

 

I don't think so.. for the very reason I just pointed out. He accepted elves in his army when others didn't. The guy was pretty cool ONCE. And he never got on Katriel's case for being a woman specifically. It's because she was a sneaky bard. He even defended her being an elf once, in front of all the nobles. While he respected Rowan as a warrior more than just about anyone.

[Illegitimus]

I've read on the Dragon Age wiki that the Chantry allows annulments but not divorces. So if Cailan survived Ostagar and divorced Anora, would he still be able to marry Celene and unite the nations without the Chantry's support? Would it make a difference to how the the subsequent conflicts would play out?<

 

<snort>  Cailan would in fact be getting an annulment due to inability to conceive so that wouldn't be an issue.  It's not like the Chantry would say "no" to Celene's marriage.  

[Tidus]

Straykat, I also read the book but,that was long before Loghain went mad.. Anora even stated "My father is no longer the Hero of River Dane" so,she sees he has changed for the worst. Loghain was more then willing to write the Elves off as a lost cause just to justify selling them into slavery. It had to be embarrassing for him to be taken down by a Elven warden a mere subclass at best.  

 

I just hope Loghain realizes that selling Elves into slavery  was a grave mistake before my CE warden kills him.-I can picture the fiery hate in my warden's eyes is the last thing Loghain sees. Vaughan saw those same fiery hate filled eyes before he was killed.

[Natureguy85]

DLC is an argument after the fact, but Return to Ostagar does present the new information well. This is what makes the game a bit deeper. We can agree with Loghain's concerns because we see what a foolish man-child Cailan is. However we can't accept Loghain's actions.

 

As for Eamon, I think he knows what kind of person Anora is and is rightfully concerned for Alistair.

[Tidus]

Only Cailan wasn't the fool Loghain was. Cailan saw the danger in the Darkspawn.. Loghain worried more about the Orlesians then the real threat. to Ferelden.

 

There's no way under the sun to justify what Loghain did and not to mention he almost handed Ferelden over to the Darkspawn on a silver platter. While the Darkspawn is running amok in Ferelden his biggest argument at the Landsmeet is keeping out the Orlesians even though the Southern part of Ferelden fell to the Darkspawn and how the wardens is not needed.

 

If you loose the landsmeet he can't wait to have your warden, Alistair and Arl Eamond taken outside and executed.

 

Loghain was the fool not Cailan..

[Qis]

Yes, all the bad talk about Cailan we hear from his enemies, his rivals, even his own wife at the time she pursuing the throne..There is no proof that Cailan is a bad ruler or a fool, all we hear are just claims from Howes, Loghain and Anora

 

Cailan may appear like what he is, but that just his mask, it is just natural for a young king acted like him...He's not informed, that's all. It is because no one below him can be trusted...no on told him what happe in the Alieaneage for example, doesn't make him a bad king, it is just he don't know, but when City Elf recruit met him, he make his promise....the same with what happen to Cousland, he promise to bring justice...that's show he's a good king.

 

If Anora is so good in managing everything, why Anora never inform her beloved husband who is the King about the Alieneage? It shows that she don't care about the Elves in her own city where the palace is...and it turn out to be her father being selling slaves all these time...

 

Cailan simply put asde all sentiments shuld the Duncan recruit talking **** infront of him, because he know what important is to face the Blight ad end it, nothing else matters. He also saved Alistair and the new recruit he just met from facing the main battle, showing that he's wise, he know should something goes wrong to him, there's Alistair and a fresh GW recruit...he already sense Loghain betrayal....

[Tidus]

Qis,After reading your post I'm now thinking Anora may have been in on the plot to kill Cailan along with all the Greys especially Alistair.

 

Think of it.. Cailan been winning the battles against the darkspawn and would have won that battle had Loghain not betrayed him  by retreating.

 

However.

 

There was deals in the making. for lands,freedom for the mages etc before the battle at Ostagar. Maybe Loghain had Queen Anora locked up for a reason and that reason may have involved  double crossing her own father like she did at the Landsmeet and she really laid it on thick blaming her father for everything while acting the innocent victim. You'll recall the ground rules she laid before agreeing to marry Alistair..

 

Queen Celene would be proud if that was the game Anora was playing.

[straykat]

Anora wasn't in on the plot. Even Gaider defends her somewhat. He always gets a little irritated when people villainize her it seems. lol

 

Besides, the game is like 5 years old. If they had some vast conspiracy brewing, they'd have revealed it by now.

[Tidus]

Starykat,I'm not to sure if it would be reveal when most topics deal with saving/killing Loghain,killing everybody.hating Morrigan,hating/killing Leliana,hating the Elves and such like.

 

My next game I will listen more closely to Queen Anora for some reason I don't think she may be all that "innocent" as she pretends. and the way she sold her father down the river during the landsmeet.

 

She doesn't get all that excited when he's about to be executed.. A weak suggestion he joins the Greys and no begging when that fails. If she is appointed Queen she calls for Allistair's execution but, not one word about executing the warden that killed her father.

 

She does mention she's tired of being a figurehead and that she mentions she ran the country for the past 5 years not Cailan...She also mentions Cailan's  mistresses.. This comes up during the discussion about marrying Alistair since she some how knew my female warden and Alistair was romantically involved.

[Qis]

Anora might not involved in the conspiracy to kill Cailan, but she's a manipulator, she take advantage of everything to secure her throne and that's include degrading her former husband and sell her own father...she's willingly selling everyone as we can see in any of the outcomes with her.It is understandable, being a queen who her husband dead, and power struggle...

 

The one who is fool is her own father, Loghain. Clearly he don't see that all coming before he decide to let Cailan die. As a so called wise strategist, surely Loghain could have see what happen if Cailan died with no heir, what more during the Blight where everyone need a leader to face it, but he's more concern about his own paranoia.

 

Cailan need troops, but what Loghain do? He poison Arl Eamon making Redcliffe troop don't arrive at Ostagar, and then Redcliffe army is so busy to find cure, and **** happen in Redcliffe

 

So one evil breeding other evil, one after another Loghain continously scheming to cover his own foolishness, clearly he's not a man being propagated about.

[straykat]

Anora might not involved in the conspiracy to kill Cailan, but she's a manipulator, she take advantage of everything to secure her throne and that's include degrading her former husband and sell her own father...she's willingly selling everyone as we can see in any of the outcomes with her.It is understandable, being a queen who her husband dead, and power struggle...

 

The one who is fool is her own father, Loghain. Clearly he don't see that all coming before he decide to let Cailan die. As a so called wise strategist, surely Loghain could have see what happen if Cailan died with no heir, what more during the Blight where everyone need a leader to face it, but he's more concern about his own paranoia.

 

Cailan need troops, but what Loghain do? He poison Arl Eamon making Redcliffe troop don't arrive at Ostagar, and then Redcliffe army is so busy to find cure, and **** happen in Redcliffe

 

So one evil breeding other evil, one after another Loghain continously scheming to cover his own foolishness, clearly he's not a man being propagated about.

 

Loghain may be a fool, but I don't see how you to make the giant leap with Anora. Just play the game.. none of this is there. I don't know how to comment on any of it.

 

As for Loghain, he wouldn't be a fool by most standards. It's just in the magical wonderland game of Dragon Age that he looks like a fool. He hates "legends" and magical reasons for everything. It's Bizarro world from Superman.. where everything is upside down. It's why I'm getting tired of the whole setting myself. It showed some promise, but it gets crazier as time goes on.

 

He's a realist, and just a commoner who rose up through sheer ballsiness. He promotes people like Cauthrien for the same reason. She was just a farmgirl. It's why people still call him a hero in Ferelden, even when you kill him. A Working Class Hero, if you will. So it annoys him when he's faced with something that requires "legends" and watching Cailan go fanboy over it. He simply believes people can just kick ass, if they try hard enough. That's what his speech at the Landsmeet is about too. When he tells them that Ferelden has been attacked "times beyond counting", and that they can "defeat even the Blight itself!" When you put yourself in the mindset of a realist like this (someone more akin to our own world), Cailan looks childish.

[Qis]

That's why he's a fool...he live in a world where magic, legend and myth are real, but he don't want to believe it. Gryphon is real, Grey warden riding Gryphon is a real thing. So if cailan become a Grey Warden fanboi, it is justified because Grey Warden are hero of the Blight. Loghain going against that is foolish, no one defeating a Blight in 4 Blights other than Grey Wardens.

 

So when Darkspawns emerging in large numbers, he cannot take it lightly, as a wise and legendary strategist, he cannot simply thinking "ah, this are not serious, just a large Darkspawn raid...". Duncan is a leader of Ferelden Grey Warden, he say it is a Blight, who else you want to trust about Blights other than Grey Wardens? This alone prove that Loghain is out of his mind....

[Tidus]

Loghain was a realist at one time and then he lost all reality .. He thought he knew it all but, knew fiddly doo about a blight and Darkspawn in general. While he was busy fighting a needless civil war the Darkspawn was on the march killing and destroying Ferelden. He wanted the last two Greys in Ferelden dead,he had the Couslands killed and Arl Eamond poison,sold Elves  into slavery,had people tortured. His main concern was the Orlesians instead of the Darkspawn.

 

As far as Cailan being a fanboy of the Greys I think not. He was the real realist since he saw the real threat to Ferelden.

 

And yes, Anora is indeed a manipulator its there for all to see if one cares to ask questions and she didn't seem all upset about her father's impending death-a weak make him a grey warden and then nothing. 

 

If appointed Queen she will order the execution of Alistair and not the grey that killed her father. She sets guide lines in the purposed marriage to Alistair and if your female warden is romantically involved with Alistair she wants her gone. She no longer wants to be a figure head but, the ruler.

[ModernAcademic]

Only Cailan wasn't the fool Loghain was. Cailan saw the danger in the Darkspawn.. Loghain worried more about the Orlesians then the real threat. to Ferelden.

 

There's no way under the sun to justify what Loghain did and not to mention he almost handed Ferelden over to the Darkspawn on a silver platter. While the Darkspawn is running amok in Ferelden his biggest argument at the Landsmeet is keeping out the Orlesians even though the Southern part of Ferelden fell to the Darkspawn and how the wardens is not needed.

 

If you loose the landsmeet he can't wait to have your warden, Alistair and Arl Eamond taken outside and executed.

 

Loghain was the fool not Cailan..

 

Cailan didn't spare a thought for the danger the darkspawn posed. The battle at Ostagar was supposed to be a chance for him to live a childhood fantasy: to ride alongside the "legendary" Grey Wardens to "stem the tide of evil". His words, not mine.

 

As Loghain said, he was a child playing at war. And he got himself killed with his own actions, just as Eamon and Loghain warned him not to. 

[Tidus]

Loghain thought Meric was a fool too but,that's beside the point.

 

Still Cailan fully understood the danger the Darkspawn was to Ferelden unlike that fool Loghain that was to busy plotting to betray his King and endanger his country. Even at the Landsmeet he thought he was top dog and went into a hissy fit after the landsmeet  stood behind the wardens. Even they saw Loghain was changed.

 

Loghain is a unredeemable asp of a man that deserves to be ran through with a sword..

[ModernAcademic]

That's why he's a fool...he live in a world where magic, legend and myth are real, but he don't want to believe it. Gryphon is real, Grey warden riding Gryphon is a real thing. So if cailan become a Grey Warden fanboi, it is justified because Grey Warden are hero of the Blight. Loghain going against that is foolish, no one defeating a Blight in 4 Blights other than Grey Wardens.

 

So when Darkspawns emerging in large numbers, he cannot take it lightly, as a wise and legendary strategist, he cannot simply thinking "ah, this are not serious, just a large Darkspawn raid...". Duncan is a leader of Ferelden Grey Warden, he say it is a Blight, who else you want to trust about Blights other than Grey Wardens? This alone prove that Loghain is out of his mind....

 

1) Most players considered the elven gods to be nothing more than myth. Then along comes Inquisition to prove they were, in fact, real. Just that they were not gods. Powerful, immortal, extremely knowledgeable, yes, but not gods.

 

If Loghain is a fool for living in a world of magic and being blind to it, so is Wynne. She doesn't believe the gryphons were ever real. When in camp, she tells you about a battle that happened long ago where Grey Wardens fought riding gryphons. As a mage, she doesn't hide her skepticism as to there being any truth at all to the existence of gryphons.

 

The Circle is an institution for the education of all matters magical and it also doesn't believe in many magical things: immortal mages, harmless blood magic, a way to convert a demon back into a spirit and many other practices that are normal for Morrigan, Flemeth and that were common in Arlathan. Some of these practices are even declared to be heretical. However, we have proof in the game that all those practices are not impossible. They are very much real.

 

2) The Grey Wardens are a foreign (they originated in the extreme north, in Anderfels), hermetic order full of secrets that appear out of the blue to make demands from politicians and rulers. The GW had already betrayed a Ferelden monarch in the past by leading a revolt (Sophia Dryden). Later on, they endangered King Maric's life and almost allowed an Orlesian mage, Remille, to threaten the world with the help of a darkspawn (the Architect in the Calling).

 

All Loghain knew about Wardens is that they often took actions that endangered people and were known not to be trustworthy. Genevieve asked King Maric for help to go into the Deep Roads in order to rescue Bregan. Her motive was that Bregan knew where the remaining Archdemons were and the darkspawn had captured him to know their locations, thus preempting a Blight.

 

Let me repeat that in case it wasn't clear enough: she used the excuse of a Blight being about to happen with a reason that hung SOLELY on her own word (how would anyone know that what she said about Bregan was true?) to demand aid from the King.

 

Instead, she joins the treacherous Orlesian mage Remille and a darkspawn emissary in some mad plan to contaminate all mankind with the taint and end all Blights. Turns out the plan was actually an Orlesian attempt to subjugate Thedas throught the use of magic that infected people with the taint.

 

And who made it possible that a mage had the necessary leverage to threaten Ferelden with this power in the first place?

 

Oh. My. God. The Grey Wardens. By allowing King Maric to be captured by said Orlesian mage.

 

 

 

Oh dear, will you look at that. Seems like Loghain was not mad at all. He was right all along. You can't trust the Grey Wardens. They don't know what they are doing. They don't think before they act. They endanger people. Like Clarel and that Magister. Using blood magic to summon a giant evil demon? What on earth were the Grey Wardens thinking? But oh, Loghain is mad. He hates the Grey Wardens because he's a short-sighted idiot.

 

It's nice to read the books sometimes. They explain what was missing in the games. Such as important stuff that tells you THE MAIN REASON behind a character's motivation. Information like that is what decides if he's mad or if he had, I don't know, every damn cause in the world to act the way he did.

[Iakus]

Loghain was a realist at one time and then he lost all reality .. He thought he knew it all but, knew fiddly doo about a blight and Darkspawn in general. While he was busy fighting a needless civil war the Darkspawn was on the march killing and destroying Ferelden. He wanted the last two Greys in Ferelden dead,he had the Couslands killed and Arl Eamond poison,sold Elves  into slavery,had people tortured. His main concern was the Orlesians instead of the Darkspawn.

 

As far as Cailan being a fanboy of the Greys I think not. He was the real realist since he saw the real threat to Ferelden.

 

And yes, Anora is indeed a manipulator its there for all to see if one cares to ask questions and she didn't seem all upset about her father's impending death-a weak make him a grey warden and then nothing. 

 

If appointed Queen she will order the execution of Alistair and not the grey that killed her father. She sets guide lines in the purposed marriage to Alistair and if your female warden is romantically involved with Alistair she wants her gone. She no longer wants to be a figure head but, the ruler.

Yup.  There hadn't been a Blight in centuries, nor have there been Wardens in Ferelden in over a hundred years, until recently.  Loghain understood Orlesian enemies, not darkspawn.

 

Cailain...he recognized the threat, but was still a fanboy.  He knew they needed allies and Wardens to face the Blight, but he stupidly stood at the front lines, the place of greatest danger, even though he was no Warden and would only make himself a target.  Brave.  But immature.

 

Anora is her father's daughter.  She's smart, pragmatic, and ruthless.  But she lacks her father's paranoia.  She does what she believes is best for Ferelden without getting overly axe-crazy.  She won't have Alistair executed if he renounces his claim to the throne (and he stays a Warden)  A hardened Alistair can keep her from taking over completely, though.

[Natureguy85]

Oh dear, will you look at that. Seems like Loghain was not mad at all. He was right all along. You can't trust the Grey Wardens. They don't know what they are doing. They don't think before they act. They endanger people. Like Clarel and that Magister. Using blood magic to summon a giant evil demon? What on earth were the Grey Wardens thinking? But oh, Loghain is mad. He hates the Grey Wardens because he's a short-sighted idiot.

 

It's nice to read the books sometimes. They explain what was missing in the games. Such as important stuff that tells you THE MAIN REASON behind a character's motivation. Information like that is what decides if he's mad or if he had, I don't know, every damn cause in the world to act the way he did.

 

That's a failure in writing if it's supposed to make Logain seem more reasonable. The games are the primary media for this franchise. All relevant information should be in them. Secondary media, such as the books, is great for expanding backstories, like the Ferelden Revolt against Orlais, but they should not alter our view of the primary media.

 

 

 

Yup.  There hadn't been a Blight in centuries, nor have there been Wardens in Ferelden in over a hundred years, until recently.  Loghain understood Orlesian enemies, not darkspawn.

 

Cailain...he recognized the threat, but was still a fanboy.  He knew they needed allies and Wardens to face the Blight, but he stupidly stood at the front lines, the place of greatest danger, even though he was no Warden and would only make himself a target.  Brave.  But immature.

 

Anora is her father's daughter.  She's smart, pragmatic, and ruthless.  But she lacks her father's paranoia.  She does what she believes is best for Ferelden without getting overly axe-crazy.  She won't have Alistair executed if he renounces his claim to the throne (and he stays a Warden)  A hardened Alistair can keep her from taking over completely, though.

 

Anora may have Ferelden's best interests in mind, but she wants the throne badly and puts that first.

[ModernAcademic]

That's a failure in writing if it's supposed to make Logain seem more reasonable. The games are the primary media for this franchise. All relevant information should be in them. Secondary media, such as the books, is great for expanding backstories, like the Ferelden Revolt against Orlais, but they should not alter our view of the primary media.

 

And because it wasn't, it makes a character seem so unreasonable he can only be mad and power-driven.

 

Like I and many other players used to think before we got around to read The Calling.

 

 

The Dragon Age franchise usually inserts a lot of information about the lore in the books. For those who are only interested in playing a good video game, they end missing a lot of relevant information.