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[Return to Ostagar DLC] WTF Cailan. And Loghain is the traitor?


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#76
Natureguy85

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And because it wasn't, it makes a character seem so unreasonable he can only be mad and power-driven.

 

Like I and many other players used to think before we got around to read The Calling.

 

 

The Dragon Age franchise usually inserts a lot of information about the lore in the books. For those who are only interested in playing a good video game, they end missing a lot of relevant information.

 

You're right and that's what I have a problem with. Books should be extra stuff that doesn't matter to the games. I didn't read the Mass Effect books, but I think they cover things like Anderson's mission with Kaylee Sanders and Kai Leng or Cerberus attacking the Quarian ship that Praza mentions on Freedom's Progress. Or if one covers Anderson's mission with Saren. It's more detail and maybe a cool story, but wasn't relevant to the game. The characters in the game told me all I needed to know to understand what was going on in the game.

 

Even though they are also movies, this is the same reason I hate everything in the Star Wars prequels that alters my understanding of events in the Original Trilogy.


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#77
Tidus

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Books can be interesting background stories for some characters like Alistair whose real mother shows up in DA:I. Seems Meric had a fling with Fiona in the deep roads and the result was Alistair.. The "Stolen Throne" gives some background on the history of Ferelden and King Meric and shows Loghain as a good/bad guy.



#78
Qis

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1) Most players considered the elven gods to be nothing more than myth. Then along comes Inquisition to prove they were, in fact, real. Just that they were not gods. Powerful, immortal, extremely knowledgeable, yes, but not gods.

 

If Loghain is a fool for living in a world of magic and being blind to it, so is Wynne. She doesn't believe the gryphons were ever real. When in camp, she tells you about a battle that happened long ago where Grey Wardens fought riding gryphons. As a mage, she doesn't hide her skepticism as to there being any truth at all to the existence of gryphons.

 

The Circle is an institution for the education of all matters magical and it also doesn't believe in many magical things: immortal mages, harmless blood magic, a way to convert a demon back into a spirit and many other practices that are normal for Morrigan, Flemeth and that were common in Arlathan. Some of these practices are even declared to be heretical. However, we have proof in the game that all those practices are not impossible. They are very much real.

 

2) The Grey Wardens are a foreign (they originated in the extreme north, in Anderfels), hermetic order full of secrets that appear out of the blue to make demands from politicians and rulers. The GW had already betrayed a Ferelden monarch in the past by leading a revolt (Sophia Dryden). Later on, they endangered King Maric's life and almost allowed an Orlesian mage, Remille, to threaten the world with the help of a darkspawn (the Architect in the Calling).

 

All Loghain knew about Wardens is that they often took actions that endangered people and were known not to be trustworthy. Genevieve asked King Maric for help to go into the Deep Roads in order to rescue Bregan. Her motive was that Bregan knew where the remaining Archdemons were and the darkspawn had captured him to know their locations, thus preempting a Blight.

 

Let me repeat that in case it wasn't clear enough: she used the excuse of a Blight being about to happen with a reason that hung SOLELY on her own word (how would anyone know that what she said about Bregan was true?) to demand aid from the King.

 

Instead, she joins the treacherous Orlesian mage Remille and a darkspawn emissary in some mad plan to contaminate all mankind with the taint and end all Blights. Turns out the plan was actually an Orlesian attempt to subjugate Thedas throught the use of magic that infected people with the taint.

 

And who made it possible that a mage had the necessary leverage to threaten Ferelden with this power in the first place?

 

Oh. My. God. The Grey Wardens. By allowing King Maric to be captured by said Orlesian mage.

 

 

 

Oh dear, will you look at that. Seems like Loghain was not mad at all. He was right all along. You can't trust the Grey Wardens. They don't know what they are doing. They don't think before they act. They endanger people. Like Clarel and that Magister. Using blood magic to summon a giant evil demon? What on earth were the Grey Wardens thinking? But oh, Loghain is mad. He hates the Grey Wardens because he's a short-sighted idiot.

 

It's nice to read the books sometimes. They explain what was missing in the games. Such as important stuff that tells you THE MAIN REASON behind a character's motivation. Information like that is what decides if he's mad or if he had, I don't know, every damn cause in the world to act the way he did.

 

I never read any Dragon Age books or even care about them, for me the game is what i need to know about the world, because i am playing a character. Of course the game itself having cutscenes giving the informations the character shouldn't know, but the NPCs always giving informations related to the cutscenes, such as Zevran admit Loghain who hire him to murder The Warden.

 

I don't like it when they release the vanilla game, then other stuff outside vanilla game say something else, in any games, i hate it. Such as there is Miraak in Skyrim, the vanilla game said we are the Last Dragonborn, then suddenly there is another Draghonborn, **** that. In Oblivion we the hero helping the real hero solving the crsis in the vanilla, but then we are a Daedric lord having amnesia, **** that too.

 

So in Dragon Age, i don't care what the book or DLCs said, i only care what my Warden and Hawke said about what they saw and going through, their experience and their thought, not what outside sources say about things that messed up things. My Warden and my Hawke making choices not because of what books and DLC outside vanilla said about things, but based on what they see and experinced


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#79
Tidus

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Qis,I enjoyed reading the books but, play the games based on the story line and therefore only kill those that needs killing.If Loghain shows up in another game no big deal even though my warden killed him in DA:O after all the writers can't write a story line based on what happen in DA:O regardless if he lives or dies.

 

I'm beginning to think it might even be best if the games are play as separate games or a recalled as a brief history much like Lord of the Rings game series and yes, I read that series of books as well.

 

I will admit the surprise was lost when Fiona talks about knowing King Meric.. I wish Alistair could meet his real mother but, maybe its best they not meet.



#80
Qis

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The reason why i don't like EU in Star Wars is because of the reason i stated above, and it become more and more absurd...the Emperor live again, Luke turn to dark side, rule of two, rule of one, Sith are alien creatures of a sort, more Jedi powers we never see in the movie....the only EU i liked is KotOR1&2, but then they destroyed it with SWTOR in which based on some dude book

 

In vanilla DA:O it is established that Templar don't need lyrium, so i have the impression that the Chatry is lying and using lyrium to control Templars, but in the comic sudenly Alistair drinking lyrium, **** that...in DA2 Templar ability description says Templar ability come from lyrium, **** that. I don't like it when they change things like that.


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#81
Natureguy85

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The reason why i don't like EU in Star Wars is because of the reason i stated above, and it become more and more absurd...the Emperor live again, Luke turn to dark side, rule of two, rule of one, Sith are alien creatures of a sort, more Jedi powers we never see in the movie....the only EU i liked is KotOR1&2, but then they destroyed it with SWTOR in which based on some dude book

 

In vanilla DA:O it is established that Templar don't need lyrium, so i have the impression that the Chatry is lying and using lyrium to control Templars, but in the comic sudenly Alistair drinking lyrium, **** that...in DA2 Templar ability description says Templar ability come from lyrium, **** that. I don't like it when they change things like that.

 

Wait, when did it say they don't need it? I'm only remembering what you described from DA2: that lyrium fuels the Templars' anti magic abilities.



#82
Qis

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Wait, when did it say they don't need it? I'm only remembering what you described from DA2: that lyrium fuels the Templars' anti magic abilities.

 

The Warden learn Templar ability from Alistair without consuming any lyrium at all, confirming Alistair claim, also DA:O Templar specialization and skill description says nothing about lyrum

 

http://dragonage.wik...mplar_(Origins)

 

But DA2 said "Through ingestion of carefully prepared lyrium, templars gain resistance to magic, including the ability to interrupt spells." and Anulment perk says "The lyrium infusing the templar's blood protects the templar from the Fade's influence. The templar gains resistance to all forms of hostile magic."

 

http://dragonage.wik...(Dragon_Age_II)



#83
Natureguy85

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The Warden learn Templar ability from Alistair without consuming any lyrium at all, confirming Alistair claim, also DA:O Templar specialization and skill description says nothing about lyrum

 

http://dragonage.wik...mplar_(Origins)

 

But DA2 said "Through ingestion of carefully prepared lyrium, templars gain resistance to magic, including the ability to interrupt spells." and Anulment perk says "The lyrium infusing the templar's blood protects the templar from the Fade's influence. The templar gains resistance to all forms of hostile magic."

 

http://dragonage.wik...(Dragon_Age_II)

 

I don't think you can point to the lack of the Warden consuming Lyrium when you take the specialization to mean anything. None of the other specializations show any training. It's just something you unlock.

 

The codex entry for the Templars and the wiki page Templar Order both mention it. While the former just says they take it for that purpose, the latter says there are "confirmed benefits." So I don't see a change. Alistair does talk about the Chantry using it to control the Templars, but those are not mutually exclusive.



#84
Qis

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If you train to be a bard with Leliana she does show up "taking" you to a place to train, Reaver have a special cutscene for it, also Berserker with Oghren, Arcane Warrior from Spirit, Blood magic from demon...specializations are not just unlocked skills, you really trained them. It is not just game mechanic but you really training with your specializations. Some you learned by books you buy

 

Sadly once unlocked it remain unlocked, that's why i always "unlocked" them repeatedly each playthrough just for immersion. But skills from books such as Ranger and Spirit Healer have no way to re-buy the books each playthroughs.

 

And the codex is written by First Enchanter, surely he live in the Circle controlled by The Chantry who say Templar ability come from lyrium....Alistair and The Warden prove it WRONG



#85
Natureguy85

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If you train to be a bard with Leliana she does show up "taking" you to a place to train, Reaver have a special cutscene for it, also Berserker with Oghren, Arcane Warrior from Spirit, Blood magic from demon...specializations are not just unlocked skills, you really trained them. It is not just game mechanic but you really training with your specializations. Some you learned by books you buy

 

Sadly once unlocked it remain unlocked, that's why i always "unlocked" them repeatedly each playthrough just for immersion. But skills from books such as Ranger and Spirit Healer have no way to re-buy the books each playthroughs.

 

And the codex is written by First Enchanter, surely he live in the Circle controlled by The Chantry who say Templar ability come from lyrium....Alistair and The Warden prove it WRONG

 

Really? I don't remember those scenes at all.

 

Edit: I looked on youtube and I do recall them going offscreen for training.



#86
Tidus

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When Leliana trains my warden  as a bard she does so in camp away from the others since there will be daggers flying willy-nilly. Zevran teaches my warden and Leliana how to be a assassin. Regardless of characters used in one's chosen core group you start with blanks and build them into a strong fighting force by using the best skills, strongest weapons/ mage magics and armor for each character.. This is how I tank my three rogues and Morrigan.

 

As far as lyrium  I think its used for other reasons-the smuggled lyrium from Orzammar was needed for some reason at the Circle..



#87
Natureguy85

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In vanilla DA:O it is established that Templar don't need lyrium, so i have the impression that the Chatry is lying and using lyrium to control Templars, but in the comic sudenly Alistair drinking lyrium, **** that...in DA2 Templar ability description says Templar ability come from lyrium, **** that. I don't like it when they change things like that.

 

I found Alistair explicitly saying that the talents do not require Lyrium but are enhanced by it, so you're right.

 

As for Alistair drinking Lyrium, what was the context? I see why that would bother you because Alistair says he never took his vows to become a full Templar, so I have a hard time seeing the Chantry giving him Lyrium.



#88
Qis

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Alistair drinking lyrium in the comic, and then Templar specialization in DA2 justifying that, and so Dragon Age lore now saying Templar power come from lyrium, which means it is not come from faith, not divine. Before i thought the power is divine, it just that the Chantry fooling the Templar into drinking lyrium in order to make them addict so easier to control

 

See the implication on that? It totally deny any divine intervention, scepticism. In doing that it also destroy what being established by Alistair that the Chantry using lyrium to control Templars, it become not true because now the Templar really need lyrium for power.



#89
Natureguy85

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Alistair drinking lyrium in the comic, and then Templar specialization in DA2 justifying that, and so Dragon Age lore now saying Templar power come from lyrium, which means it is not come from faith, not divine. Before i thought the power is divine, it just that the Chantry fooling the Templar into drinking lyrium in order to make them addict so easier to control

 

See the implication on that? It totally deny any divine intervention, scepticism. In doing that it also destroy what being established by Alistair that the Chantry using lyrium to control Templars, it become not true because now the Templar really need lyrium for power.

 

Well, it's a good role play idea, but they wouldn't want to confirm it as divine power because they want us to wonder if the Maker is real and how much of what we know about him is true.  But you're right that it does let us know that even if the Chantry is exploiting the Templas with Lyrium, they didn't just make it up. The ambiguity and mystery are removed.



#90
sylvanaerie

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Yes, in the interim between DAO and DAI, it has become necessary for Templars to intake lyrium (it isn't specified in DAI just how they take it into their system, snorting, breathing, bake it into a cake and eat it etc).

 

As far as I know, this started in the comic, and has followed through in the sequel as I understand you have an actual conversation about Templar spec in DAI with a former templar.  I have yet to play a warrior so I can't personally confirm it, only know of it.



#91
Qis

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That's why i don't like it when they taking sources outside vanilla game, i don't like DLCs either, books and DLCs for me messed up things.

 

Like Star Wars, they even add EU stuff and change the original trilogy to make it work with EU, then they decide it become crappy and dismiss EU as canon. For me, Star Wars become a joke now and i don't really care anymore.

 

DA:I taking DLC character as the main villain, that's crap.

 

Even on topic, for me RTO revealing Cailan have secret love affair with Empress Celene is a no need, why must they make it so? Just leave Cailan dead as dead, but no they want pleased Loghain fans, add stuff to justify Loghain act on leaving Cailan dead...they even add stuff to demonize Grey Wardens

 

In HN origin, i only know that Grey Warden are few in Ferelden, the order is just returned to Ferelden for sometime for reason...so that's why Duncan play safe, it is a mystery on why.....but then DLC says Grey Warden was involved in rebellion against Ferelden. If really want to make it so, why not include that in the vanilla?

 

So after playing vanilla, we have an established opinion/view about what happen in the world of Dragon Age, when books and DLCs come, they forced us to change our view



#92
Tidus

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Qis,Since we talking things we don't like.. I hate any mods to the main characters since the ones I've seen made them looked like street strumpets .

 

As far as DLCs the only one I like is Awakening since it tells what happen after the blight. It could have been much better if there was  a way to import  one or two companions from DA:O.. Seems Leliana would be by the warden's side since they was still together at that time.

 

WH is a joke,no banter between the PC and the group he/she is traveling with even between the two Dalish Elves after they leave Flemeth's old hut. Ariane was excited to meet the Dalish HOF then she gets a bad case of lock jaw and spends more time talking to a human mage (Finn) and seems to end up with a crush on him.   If a CE is used nothing is said about him/her being the HOF.. What gives with that?

 

Leliana's Story isn't that bad since it deals with Leliana's past and how she really ended up in the Chantry..



#93
Qis

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That kind of DLC you mentioned for me it is an expansion, like in the old games we have expansions that add extra quests after the vanilla or not related to vanilla. I don't mind expansions.

 

But nowadays DLCs are a part of the game that should be in the vanilla but they don't include them in because...want to milk money...that's what i hate about DLCs

 

Example RTO should be in the vanilla because it explain Loghain paranoia, it is not things add up after playing vanilla but during playing the vanilla...that's suck.

 

So for example, let say, before we have established that Loghain a bad guy who betray Cailan because he's a power hungry, but then we replay the game with RTO, we change our mind "oh it is Cailan who is a traitor"...that's crap for me...


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#94
straykat

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Qis,Since we talking things we don't like.. I hate any mods to the main characters since the ones I've seen made them looked like street strumpets .

 

As far as DLCs the only one I like is Awakening since it tells what happen after the blight. It could have been much better if there was  a way to import  one or two companions from DA:O.. Seems Leliana would be by the warden's side since they was still together at that time.

 

WH is a joke,no banter between the PC and the group he/she is traveling with even between the two Dalish Elves after they leave Flemeth's old hut. Ariane was excited to meet the Dalish HOF then she gets a bad case of lock jaw and spends more time talking to a human mage (Finn) and seems to end up with a crush on him.   If a CE is used nothing is said about him/her being the HOF.. What gives with that?

 

Leliana's Story isn't that bad since it deals with Leliana's past and how she really ended up in the Chantry..

 

There's one mod I like that's pretty moderate for Leliana and just gives her the sacred ashes haircut. It's not too far from lore, since they even portray her similarly in the DAKeep. Default she also has a slightly yellow/jaundice type of complexion. Ever since DA2 and DAI, they made her more typically pale. So the mod does that too.

 

But I know what you mean.

 

The only DLC I'd truly recommend for DAO is Shale. It's a shame some can't play with her.



#95
Natureguy85

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That's why i don't like it when they taking sources outside vanilla game, i don't like DLCs either, books and DLCs for me messed up things.

 

Like Star Wars, they even add EU stuff and change the original trilogy to make it work with EU, then they decide it become crappy and dismiss EU as canon. For me, Star Wars become a joke now and i don't really care anymore.

 

DA:I taking DLC character as the main villain, that's crap.

 

Even on topic, for me RTO revealing Cailan have secret love affair with Empress Celene is a no need, why must they make it so? Just leave Cailan dead as dead, but no they want pleased Loghain fans, add stuff to justify Loghain act on leaving Cailan dead...they even add stuff to demonize Grey Wardens

 

In HN origin, i only know that Grey Warden are few in Ferelden, the order is just returned to Ferelden for sometime for reason...so that's why Duncan play safe, it is a mystery on why.....but then DLC says Grey Warden was involved in rebellion against Ferelden. If really want to make it so, why not include that in the vanilla?

 

So after playing vanilla, we have an established opinion/view about what happen in the world of Dragon Age, when books and DLCs come, they forced us to change our view

 

Well, on Star Wars just watch the Original Trilogy on it's own merits. That's how it should be done. I haven't seen the new one yet. I don't know much EU and even if it includes EU stuff, if the movie was made right, none of it will be necessary for the film to make sense. No spoilers please.

 

I just got DAI on sale but haven't played it yet. Having the villain be from a DA2 DLC isn't bad unless the game doesn't present him well and you need to have played the DLC. This isn't a 1, 2, 3 series like Mass Effect, so each game should stand on its own. I definitely agree with you that RTO changing our understanding of the main plot is bad. However, I will defend Warden's Keep because we already knew that the Wardens were banned from Ferelden for a time. Warden's Keep explains why. It doesn't need to be in vanilla because the "why" doesn't really affect the main plot.


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#96
Iakus

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Even on topic, for me RTO revealing Cailan have secret love affair with Empress Celene is a no need, why must they make it so? Just leave Cailan dead as dead, but no they want pleased Loghain fans, add stuff to justify Loghain act on leaving Cailan dead...they even add stuff to demonize Grey Wardens

 

My understanding is these details were originally supposed to be uncovered in the Landsmeet.  But, like lots of other things,  got cut due to time/resources constraints.  It just got added back in for this DLC.


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#97
sniper_arrow

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Going back to Cailan and Celene. If in case he does decide to divorce/annul Anora and marries Celene, would Gaspard even be against the potential union? 

 

Better question, does Gaspard, Loghain, or any other opposing factions have the smarts or the strength to pull a Red Wedding?



#98
Illegitimus

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Even on topic, for me RTO revealing Cailan have secret love affair with Empress Celene is a no need, why must they make it so? Just leave Cailan dead as dead, but no they want pleased Loghain fans, add stuff to justify Loghain act on leaving Cailan dead...they even add stuff to demonize Grey Wardens

 

 

Argh!  That's not what Ostagar reveals.  There's no indication at Ostagar that Cailan and Celene ever met face to face and there's no way that they could have had an affair in spy-riddled Orlais.  The only thing that is indicated there is that Cailan might have been considering setting Anora aside and Celene was angling to be his next wife.  That doesn't mean it was actually going to happen if Cailan had lived.  Cailan might have stuck with Anora or might have married the female Human Noble or looked farther afield.  There's no telling particularly since we don't have anything Cailan wrote.



#99
Melbella

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 Cailan might have stuck with Anora or might have married the female Human Noble or looked farther afield.  There's no telling particularly since we don't have anything Cailan wrote.

 

Oh my! A cat fight between Anora and HNF would be [Cailan voice] glorious!  Perhaps even nastier than Morrigan vs Leliana over male HoF. :lol:



#100
Tidus

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Melbella,That cat fight between Morrigan and Leliana over the HOF is interesting banter. IMHO both gives as good as they take.

 

The timing is usually on Leliana and Alistair story line quest in Denerim.. I try to get those two quests done as early as possible. This is when my CE warden learns the Alienage was purged.