Rivalry can create some of the strongest friendships. But rivals doesn't mean doing things the other person hates. If they move it towards true rivalry it can work. If it's I hate what you represent but somehow that makes me like you then don't bother.
Saren would have been one hell of a "rival friend" under normal circumstances. I agree with this.
i dont didn't like it in DA2 because it made no sense, real people don't generally fall for people who are angry at them.
Sure, bring it back. I don't care. I will literally never complain about any point tracking system for companions.
I'd prefer the major companion choices in Inquisition that turned your companions to either this or the other. Human Cole or Spirit Cole and Qun Bull or Iron Bull felt far more natural than the Friendship/Rivalry system.
To be honest I don't really want any sort of approval system that can be viewed by the player. A good first step in DAI was getting rid of "points" that you could see (they existed but were hidden) but I think they should go further and remove the "so-and-so approves" messages and make the player figure it all out by talking to your squad and getting an idea of their ideals and preferences and also by their reactions to certain situations.
As far as rivalry goes, I think it would be interesting if you could romance a character with a vastly different world view or one that just doesn't like you that much but is still hot for you (and vice versa) but I think there should be some big choices that are insta-lockouts as far as romance goes.
I just wish the whole system was more nuanced and less gamey basically but I'm not against a rival romance if it makes sense.
This! I loved the friend/rivalry system and thought that with some tweaks it could have been really good. I hate the straight up approval system, it's weak and boring. Not everyone hooks up with people who does everything they approve of. Some people think it doesn't present a challenge. I also hate the "X approves/disapproves" messages. I wanted to turn them off in DAI.
I do agree with insta lockouts. They did this with Dorian and the Amulet guy. In DA2 the lockout for Fenris should have been the decision to make that elf girl a slave. For Anders, honestly he's so freaking nutty to the point where I think he actually would date a Pro Templar Hawke in hopes of either turning him/her to his side or just using them later, like with the Chantry explosion, I think it's proper to consider the relationship done if you refuse to help. Isabela should have just came to a dull Hawke after he's made too many goody two shoes choices and just dump him. Merril's lockout should have been killing her clan.
Saren would have been one hell of a "rival friend" under normal circumstances. I agree with this.
I agree, I actually wish I could have saved Saren. Not have him on my ship or anything but just have him as one of those rival friends who helps from the fringes sort of deal. Maybe he'll do certain things his own way that I disapprove of or something.
I'd prefer the major companion choices in Inquisition that turned your companions to either this or the other. Human Cole or Spirit Cole and Qun Bull or Iron Bull felt far more natural than the Friendship/Rivalry system.
How about just not recruit Bull? The character sucks either way.
Cole doesn't suck personality wise, but it's still dumb. I can't even bring myself to give a **** what he becomes.. since the fact that he exists the way he does is silly. Even in a world of magic, it's too silly for my tastes. Am I supposed to act serious about him and his fate? Like it's some big moral quandary? It's ****** dumb. If I can get past that, maybe I'll start thinking more on it. I just don't feel any of the intensity I did, say, with Isabela or Alistair or Loghain.. just because it's so out there.
If they want to make interesting rivalry/friendships and companion fates, then the first thing to do is not write stupid **** to begin with.. make the conflicts and relationships about things that truly hit home.
While I really liked the friendship/rivalry system, to the point it is my favorite companion system so far, I don't actually really want them to bring it in ME:A for the simple reason that the ME games have never had approval as a constantly changing dynamic variable and thus they have never written their characters from that point of view. While it does simplify the interactions somewhat, the good side it is that they are actually able to include very character specific interactions, for example ParagonShep and Garrus in ME3 and their views on war, which had a lot of nuance when looking at it. Maybe if they moved forward with that kind of interactions, while being able to bring in moments like ME2 loyalty mission decisions in to it more, that would sound really good to me for ME:A.
As a sidenote, I cannot stress how much I dislike the basic approval system as it basically enforces a really simplistic worldview that you cannot disagree with your friends. That if you have a different opinion about something, you can't debate or argue about it, but the other person dislikes you because of it. I understand that it impacts the way the characters are written, for example Blackwall in DAI really wouldn't have worked with the Rivalry system, but some character might have benefitted from it, especially Dorian once his end point is shown would have really been helped by having someone push him on what he really views as important. Although the character interaction would have needed to have been restructured, but still. And Vivienne and Sera felt like characters written for a rivalry system, which I guess is why they are so divisive characters as the player is essentially punished for not agreeing with their very polarizing views.
And as a final point, I have never felt companion interaction system to be more gamelike than in DAI with the removal of the approval bars as it suddenly made me constantly question where I was with them in a very artifical environment as there weren't just small random interactions to gauge that with as in normal life.
I didn't really like the way rivalry worked, so I wouldn't want it to be part of this. I prefer just straight up approval, with the character being unavailable if they just don't like the PC.
I have to agree with this.
The Rivalry/Friend system worked for DA2 because they needed a system to explain why people with conflicting personalities, views and goals would stay in contact with each other over a decade They also needed a reason why Anders wouldn't just have a hissy fit and leave when you sided against the mages in a side quest. It was a clever explanation for keeping Anders from leaving and if Anders was the ONLY character that wouldn't say "I've had enough, I am out of here!" It would have been a huge red flag. By using the Rivalry/friend system they solved both problems of explaining why characters stayed with the protagonist for a decade when they don't get along all that well and keeping Anders around for the plot without "breaking" the games mechanics to do so.
Unless there is another compelling reason to bring back the system I see not point in resurrecting it just for the sake of having it.
No, it was horrible because for ,most characters it didn't make any sense or the bulk of the choices that gave rival points led to convos later that made no dam sense (Seb being a prince requiring you to insult the Revered Mother for example)
Makes no sense to romance someone you don't see eye to eye with on anything.
Not that I am supporting the friendship-rival system, but do opposites not attract, LadyMac?
I have yet to experience attraction to someone that's vastly different from me. It could be a short time thing until you figured out that you have nothing (or barely anything) in common. I could not imagine living a life like that. Maybe some others can but not I.
I have yet to experience attraction to someone that's vastly different from me. It could be a short time thing until you figured out that you have nothing (or barely anything) in common. I could not imagine living a life like that. Maybe some others can but not I.
And as a final point, I have never felt companion interaction system to be more gamelike than in DAI with the removal of the approval bars as it suddenly made me constantly question where I was with them in a very artifical environment as there weren't just small random interactions to gauge that with as in normal life.
What I hated the most about the approval system in DAI is that mostly all your choices were more business related than choices that reflected the type of person you are on a personal level. The only choice that does speak to the type of person you are would be if you decide to let Celene die and even then it's primarily politics with larger issues at stake that you're just trying to find a fast resolution to.
I'm in the middle of playing KOTOR and my character is a freaking douchebag for the most part. I've had enough NPC and companion interactions to the point where I can clearly see why my companions would have an issue with him on a personal level. But the IQ? I never felt as though any of the companions knew him well enough to form a decent opinion about him. That's why they look like they're just overreacting during their disapproval scenes.
I disliked that there were no way in the game to view the approval meter of the various companions because it made it unnecessarily difficult to figure out whether or not you were missing an inch of approval or if the approval of a certain companion had glitched.
I like that the approval meter was hidden but I disliked that there were no option to unhide it.
Sure, though I'd rather these things play out organically through dialogue.
What I hated the most about the approval system in DAI is that mostly all your choices were more business related than choices that reflected the type of person you are on a personal level. The only choice that does speak to the type of person you are would be if you decide to let Celene die and even then it's primarily politics with larger issues at stake that you're just trying to find a fast resolution to.
I'm in the middle of playing KOTOR and my character is a freaking douchebag for the most part. I've had enough NPC and companion interactions to the point where I can clearly see why my companions would have an issue with him on a personal level. But the IQ? I never felt as though any of the companions knew him well enough to form a decent opinion about him. That's why they look like they're just overreacting during their disapproval scenes.
I don't completely agree on there not being personal choices resulting to approval changes, I do think that there was a fundemantal problem in the system in that they saw something that worked in DA2, but didn't want to do what they did in DA2. In DA2, the rivalry system represented a disagreement on worldviews, but you could get rivalry by being a jerk to the person. This was the big problem with the DA2 system, and one I think could have been addressed relatively smoothly if they had continued with the system, but it had its fair share of valid criticism and further caused people to misunderstand the rivalry system.
However, in DAI, I agree that they went to a really bizarre direction and again seemed like their guiding principle was to be the opposite of DA2. You get the negative approval mostly from those idealogical decisions, some from being a jerk, but the reaction from negative companion scenes is that the IQ is an abbrohant person for them to despise, hence their reaction feeling really out of place as it would be more fitting if the PC had actually been consistently a jerk to them. It created this insane situation where having an idealogical disagreement with someone is an automatic personal disagreement, yet they really couldn't do anything else because their system really doesn't allow for a debate.
It's always a sad give-and-take, as a character like Blackwall would have been difficult in the DA2 system, yet a character like Fenris is impossible in the DAI system.
Not that I am supporting the friendship-rival system, but do opposites not attract, LadyMac?
Oh, touché! One of my most powerful relationships was with this girl that was studying to be a lawyer while I own a workshop and race a motorbike. Leathers and suits don't mix so well. It was powerful indeed, lasted for some years and many plates flew across the rooms many times but..there was always a way to fix it. However the relationship didn't work at the end. Our choices and lifestyles were too different. So there you have my 10 cents!. The attraction might be there..but i don't think that something like this is what most players and Bioware are after. (btw: 1- Thank you for being such a kind and patient psychiatrist ^^ 2- if you want real romances, you just need real examples)
How about just not recruit Bull? The character sucks either way.
Cole doesn't suck personality wise, but it's still dumb. I can't even bring myself to give a **** what he becomes.. since the fact that he exists the way he does is silly. Even in a world of magic, it's too silly for my tastes. Am I supposed to act serious about him and his fate? Like it's some big moral quandary? It's ****** dumb. If I can get past that, maybe I'll start thinking more on it. I just don't feel any of the intensity I did, say, with Isabela or Alistair or Loghain.. just because it's so out there.
If they want to make interesting rivalry/friendships and companion fates, then the first thing to do is not write stupid **** to begin with.. make the conflicts and relationships about things that truly hit home.
I don' think it needs to be a tangible thing we see like a bar in the character menus, but I'd love for characters treating you differently based on how you've interacted.
The Witcher 3 did a great job of this with Yennefer I thought. If Geralt was antagonistic and mistrusting of her throughout their interactions she would show less patience and be upset easily, but if you gave her the benefit of the doubt/trusted her she was more willing to compromise/not as hot headed.
I don't completely agree on there not being personal choices resulting to approval changes, I do think that there was a fundemantal problem in the system in that they saw something that worked in DA2, but didn't want to do what they did in DA2. In DA2, the rivalry system represented a disagreement on worldviews, but you could get rivalry by being a jerk to the person. This was the big problem with the DA2 system, and one I think could have been addressed relatively smoothly if they had continued with the system, but it had its fair share of valid criticism and further caused people to misunderstand the rivalry system.
Yeah, I would have liked it if they kept the jerk treatment a part from the rivalry system. Like if you're a jerk to them whether you're friend or rival as far as opinions go, they either get more hostile (if Rival) or try to understand what your personal problem is with them (If friend) before they just insta lock you out of either a romance or just decide to leave or something. idk, A bit of variety could have gone a long way with the DA2 system.
But overall, I agree that there shouldn't even be an approval system in MEA. I don't want to sit around watching meters and onscreen messages about how my companion feels about me. Just let them treat me differently, disagree or agree, and let us move on. I liked that in ME2 if you sleep with Jack early she doesn't want to talk to you anymore because in her mind you've proven to be the same as everyone else in her world. Not saying the ME system was the greatest, it needed some work too but it felt less like a system to me.
What I hated the most about the approval system in DAI is that mostly all your choices were more business related than choices that reflected the type of person you are on a personal level.
You summed up my earlier rant in a sentence.
Basically. 
The best kind of roleplaying deals with these sort of social/psychological differences. Not some wonky bullshit that means something only in the setting's context.. or on a professional level.
I also expect more lame **** since Patrick Weekes is the lead now.
They should have friendship/rivalry for all squadmates, not just the love interest.
Saren would have been one hell of a "rival friend" under normal circumstances. I agree with this.
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