76 réponses à ce sujet

[Gaaxure]

[Link for those who can't see the IMG: http://postimg.org/image/n6b6i7gsb/ ]

 

Come on you peaceniks, I want to hear your rationalizations. This is an abomination. Whatever good there was about the Geth it's gone. It has nothing in common with what it was before. It's no better than Banshee or Cannibal, as a matter of fact I think it's worse. I totally expected renegade interrupt to refer to it as cancer.

 

They achieve true sapience, you say? Well, Who's to say that the 1183 Geth programs inhabiting the legion aren't 1183 personality traits that form an individual? More personality traits/programs you have - more complex/advanced an individual. Stuff enough of them into one platform and... Surprise, surprise you get a unique individual like legion. What else there is to sentience, I think this is as close synthetics can get to it without losing their uniqueness. We can pass our personality traits onto the others(what you'd call rubbing off on someone) and Geth can share their programs with other platforms. It's not like every single Geth program has its own thought process going on, with multiple conflicting opinions in it. What Reapers do to the Geth is no different than what they do every other race, they cannibalize the core and turn it into tool that serves their purpose the best. Just because the Geth with Reaper code can crunch more data doesn't mean they're better off with it. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

 

As to the fact that "It all turns out OK in the end". Well, first off there was no way of knowing that beforehand and taking that risk, with the fate of the entire galaxy at the stake, is immeasurably stupid. As far as we know, everything that has come in contact/derived from Reaper thech either was indoctrinated, or bastardized into monstrosities. And second, if it were not to turn out OK, (i.e. if Geth were to turn on you during the final battle) no one would pick that option. Sure it would be lauded as edgy(in a good way) and gritty move by developers but ultimately Bioware would end up blowing its budget on something that small number of players ever used. Pragmatism takes precedence. 

[spockjedi]

Sorry, but I can't see the image.

[Gaaxure]

Sorry, but I can't see the image.

http://postimg.org/image/n6b6i7gsb/

[gothpunkboy89]

I don't get what you are complaining about. Visualized representation of the development of a network intelligence and it's development into a true artificial intelligence though Reaper intervention. The final one showing if I remember correctly the effect of the Reaper controlled code. Thus it is given a very cancerous like look to it to represent the reapers forcibly taking over the Geth.

[KaiserShep]

Legion itself states that there was no individual, even if it speaks through a single platform. This does make the end of the Rannoch arc bothersome though, because regardless of the change, each program within the platform should be upgraded while the sum of Legion remains an avatar of the consensus, so still should use we and it instead of I or me.

[Vanilka]

That's sort of an issue I have with the geth in ME3. In ME2, the geth are perfectly fine being just geth and pursuing their geth goals that pretty much just consist of getting together and existing as one advanced synthetic being. They were perfectly fine being different from and alien to organics. In ME3, they suddenly want to be "true sapient beings" and individuals and they develop feelings or whatever it is they're doing. They use emotionally loaded and subjective words like "beautiful". I think it's a bit of a waste that for some reason the writing suggests that the highest stage of synthetic development is to become like humans and think like humans. Another thing is that ME2 Legion makes a big point of how the geth oppose the "old machines" and yet ME3 has them run to the Reapers for help. (It's like they decided to throw everything we know about the non-heretic geth from ME2 out of the airlock in ME3.)

 

As for the Reaper code, I'd like to ask more questions about it to be convinced that it's not going to bite us in the ass. I think it comes down to whether you trust the geth and whether you're convinced the upgrade is safe. I find the schematic shown completely useless. It's just a bunch of flashing animations that tell you absolutely nothing, no numbers, no information. All you know from what Legion shows us is whether the ball of light looks pretty or ugly. For me to be convinced everything's fine, I'd need to ask Legion more questions, I'd need EDI to take a look at it, etc. (Instead, the game makes me either agree or disagree right away.) I have no problem with the geth getting an upgrade as long as I know it is safe and as long as they accept this upgrade willingly. And that they won't use it to fight us, of course. All that said, I allow Legion to upload the code and I secure peace between quarians and geth in my favourite playthrough because I have to work with what the game gives me.

[aoibhealfae]

Wasn't Legion a fully evolved AI by the time you rescue him from the dreadnought and he was acting the whole time? 

[Gaaxure]

I don't get what you are complaining about. Visualized representation of the development of a network intelligence and it's development into a true artificial intelligence though Reaper intervention. The final one showing if I remember correctly the effect of the Reaper controlled code. Thus it is given a very cancerous like look to it to represent the reapers forcibly taking over the Geth.

 

First one is one Geth program, second is 10 Geth programs networked together, the third is single geth ptrogram with Reaper code. I think it's unnecessary for me to point out that, I do not in fact think that that's how Geth programs look like(in fact they don't look like anything they're programs). That being said if the visualization of something changes that drastically it's pretty safe to assume that the thing itself underwent through extreme changes too. And changing agent being the Reaper code, it's also safe to assume that the aforementioned changes weren't towards the betterment of Geth as species. And Shepard's "paragon" response to all this to agree with Legion when he/it calls it "Indicative of life". It's as much of a life form, as cancer cells are in humans.

 

 

 

Legion itself states that there was no individual, even if it speaks through a single platform.

True enough, but Legion and other sythetic/artificial life forms also fail to comprehend most basic of human/organic concepts. I think him referring to himself as "we" is simple misunderstanding on his part. I, as well as most of us, have many conflicting thoughts and interests at any given moment the sum of those thoughts and interests makes you an individual. Similarly the Geth have multiple programs operating simultaneously on one mobile platform the sum of those programs forms a consensus.

 

Runtimes/programs=thoughts, Consensus=individual.

 

or rather

 

Runtimes/programs≈thoughts, Consensus≈individual.

Modifié par Gaaxure, 24 décembre 2015 - 04:43 .

[gothpunkboy89]

First one is one Geth program, second is 10 Geth programs networked together, the third is single geth ptrogram with Reaper code. I think it's unnecessary for me to point out that, I do not in fact think that that's how Geth programs look like(in fact they don't look like anything they're programs). That being said if the visualization of something changes that drastically it's pretty safe to assume that the thing itself underwent through extreme changes too. And changing agent being the Reaper code, it's also safe to assume that the aforementioned changes weren't towards the betterment of Geth as species. And Shepard's "paragon" response to all this to agree with Legion when he/it calls it "Indicative of life". It's as much of a life form, as cancer cells are in humans.

 

Yea again it is to show a visual representation of Geth development and the jump that is made due to reaper upgrade.  Visualization is the easiest way to show the development of something that other wise would have no real way to display. They do the exact same thing with atoms in schools.  Simplifying the subject though pictures so everyone can understand what is going on.

 

Yes it is very clear to anyone who played the game when the Geth went to the Reapers in a panic to preserve their own life the Reapers and their original changes to them were for the purpose of creating another disposable army to be used against the rest of the galaxy. Only after Legion disperses his upgrade is the change from Reaper controlled puppets signified by the cancer like set up to true AIs.

 

You are asking answers to questions that seem fairly obvious just by playing the game.

[von uber]

Problem solved.

[gothpunkboy89]

That's sort of an issue I have with the geth in ME3. In ME2, the geth are perfectly fine being just geth and pursuing their geth goals that pretty much just consist of getting together and existing as one advanced synthetic being. They were perfectly fine being different from and alien to organics. In ME3, they suddenly want to be "true sapient beings" and individuals and they develop feelings or whatever it is they're doing. They use emotionally loaded and subjective words like "beautiful". I think it's a bit of a waste that for some reason the writing suggests that the highest stage of synthetic development is to become like humans and think like humans. Another thing is that ME2 Legion makes a big point of how the geth oppose the "old machines" and yet ME3 has them run to the Reapers for help. (It's like they decided to throw everything we know about the non-heretic geth from ME2 out of the airlock in ME3.)

 

As for the Reaper code, I'd like to ask more questions about it to be convinced that it's not going to bite us in the ass. I think it comes down to whether you trust the geth and whether you're convinced the upgrade is safe. I find the schematic shown completely useless. It's just a bunch of flashing animations that tell you absolutely nothing, no numbers, no information. All you know from what Legion shows us is whether the ball of light looks pretty or ugly. For me to be convinced everything's fine, I'd need to ask Legion more questions, I'd need EDI to take a look at it, etc. (Instead, the game makes me either agree or disagree right away.) I have no problem with the geth getting an upgrade as long as I know it is safe and as long as they accept this upgrade willingly. And that they won't use it to fight us, of course. All that said, I allow Legion to upload the code and I secure peace between quarians and geth in my favourite playthrough because I have to work with what the game gives me.

 

Their goals never changed. The Geth always wanted to be true sentient beings the reason they were building their dyson sphere is specifically to achieve that goal in the only way they could at the time. By creating a massive data base that has all geth programs in 1 area. That would create one complete sentient AI. As each geth program would act much in the same way our various organs act to turn each individual human into a single sapient being.

 

A single geth unit is alike a toe. It is incapable of thought, movement or development. It is only when combined with other geth that it is able to reach cognitive awareness. Much like a toe when combined with a leg is movement actually possible.

 

The change in speech between ME2 and ME3 is fairly easy to understand. Prior to that the Geth had no real direct interaction with any other species since the conclusion of the Morning War.  Legion's time on the Normady were the crew treated him as an equal as well as his time and ability to interact with EDI who is a fully developed AI.  When he was later reintegrated with the Geth collective his thoughts and experiences would disperse into them. Thus altering their perspective every so slightly thanks to it.

 

You also ignore why the Geth do not like the Reapers. They actually like the concept of what they Reapers represent. Complete unity and understanding. How ever they don't want the Reapers to dictate their future for them. They want to create their own future by themselves. They run to the Reapers because the Quarian attack puts their very existence in danger. Though complete destruction or a synthetic version of a lobotomy that would render them again into the form of stupid servants. 

 

The destruction of thousands of Geth units actually caused their collective intelligence to be reduced. They panicked and when the Reapers offered them a solution to the problem they took in panic.

[Vanilka]

Their goals never changed. The Geth always wanted to be true sentient beings the reason they were building their dyson sphere is specifically to achieve that goal in the only way they could at the time. By creating a massive data base that has all geth programs in 1 area. That would create one complete sentient AI. As each geth program would act much in the same way our various organs act to turn each individual human into a single sapient being.

 

A single geth unit is alike a toe. It is incapable of thought, movement or development. It is only when combined with other geth that it is able to reach cognitive awareness. Much like a toe when combined with a leg is movement actually possible.

 

The change in speech between ME2 and ME3 is fairly easy to understand. Prior to that the Geth had no real direct interaction with any other species since the conclusion of the Morning War.  Legion's time on the Normady were the crew treated him as an equal as well as his time and ability to interact with EDI who is a fully developed AI.  When he was later reintegrated with the Geth collective his thoughts and experiences would disperse into them. Thus altering their perspective every so slightly thanks to it.

 

You also ignore why the Geth do not like the Reapers. They actually like the concept of what they Reapers represent. Complete unity and understanding. How ever they don't want the Reapers to dictate their future for them. They want to create their own future by themselves. They run to the Reapers because the Quarian attack puts their very existence in danger. Though complete destruction or a synthetic version of a lobotomy that would render them again into the form of stupid servants. 

 

The destruction of thousands of Geth units actually caused their collective intelligence to be reduced. They panicked and when the Reapers offered them a solution to the problem they took in panic.

 

I know these things. I've played the games.

 

However, I don't remember there anything being said about them becoming a single, sentient intelligence. They wanted to create the construction that they said would be something like the dyson sphere, for the lack of better description. That would be convenient for them because the geth indeed work on networking. The more, the better. But they would still be a swarm of geth - consensus. I don't remember anything being said about them becoming "one complete sentient AI". Another thing is that we'd have to define what a complete and sentient AI even is. The geth, despite their nature, are still AIs, even as individual programs. Primitive, perhaps, but AIs nevertheless. They merely used to be VIs before quarians took their upgrades too far. And I don't think sentience was their original goal, although if anybody has any actual in-game example proving otherwise, I'd love to see it. They seemed to just want to get together because that's how they work best and to be left alone with their business.

 

The fact Legion would actually "learn" feelings and such from the crew is just your theory. It's definitely a nice theory and one of the many possible explanations that we don't get to see, but there's really nothing to suggest it is true or that they would want to in the first place. We have no proof that Shepard and the crew actually influenced Legion that way, as far as I know. Legion, unlike EDI, doesn't go all, "Only now I feel truly alive. That is your influence." The concept of "beauty" is something rather subjective, something that requires that you have personal tastes and sense of aesthetics, something that makes you feel something. If it seemed fine to you when Legion went that way, cool and more power to you. We can have different views of things and that is fine by me. To me it seemed out of place coming out of Legion all of the sudden like that. To me it came out of nowhere.

 

I know how ME3 explains why the geth sought help with the Reapers. That doesn't mean that they don't act contradictory to what Legion says in ME2. We still learnt one thing about them in ME2, only to find them doing the exact opposite in ME3. (I'm not even going to start about quarians being idiots and starting a war with the geth in the middle of an intergalactic war, which is the reason the geth were supposedly driven into the alliance with the Reapers in the first place.) Let's just say I wish they didn't make such a huge point of Legion NOT being with heretics in ME2, that's basically what their story was about in ME2, only for them to become ones in the following game. It may be a paradox or whatever. But a paradox I, with all my organic subjectivity, do not like. I hope I am allowed to express it. Not to even mention that when that happens and the geth start effectively obliterating quarians, the Reapers actively perpetuate the problem they actually claim they strive to solve at the end of the game and that, imo, is a problem

[The Real Pearl #2]

you are all racists

 

@OP It's visual representation of a synthetic neuron. Therefore your brain is cancer by your logic.

You don't need to take a neurology class to know what a neuron looks like

Meaning the geth can truly be individual and paint themselves pink.

[The Real Pearl #2]

And being able to paint yourself pink means you support the funding for a cure for cancer. 

Overall this thread is just a failure at being funny. 

[gothpunkboy89]

I know these things. I've played the games.

 

However, I don't remember there anything being said about them becoming a single, sentient intelligence. They wanted to create the construction that they said would be something like the dyson sphere, for the lack of better description. That would be convenient for them because the geth indeed work on networking. The more, the better. But they would still be a swarm of geth - consensus. I don't remember anything being said about them becoming "one complete sentient AI". Another thing is that we'd have to define what a complete and sentient AI even is. The geth, despite their nature, are still AIs, even as individual programs. Primitive, perhaps, but AIs nevertheless. They merely used to be VIs before quarians took their upgrades too far. And I don't think sentience was their original goal, although if anybody has any actual in-game example proving otherwise, I'd love to see it. They seemed to just want to get together because that's how they work best and to be left alone with their business.

 

The fact Legion would actually "learn" feelings and such from the crew is just your theory. It's definitely a nice theory and one of the many possible explanations that we don't get to see, but there's really nothing to suggest it is true or that they would want to in the first place. We have no proof that Shepard and the crew actually influenced Legion that way, as far as I know. Legion, unlike EDI, doesn't go all, "Only now I feel truly alive. That is your influence." The concept of "beauty" is something rather subjective, something that requires that you have personal tastes and sense of aesthetics, something that makes you feel something. If it seemed fine to you when Legion went that way, cool and more power to you. We can have different views of things and that is fine by me. To me it seemed out of place coming out of Legion all of the sudden like that. To me it came out of nowhere.

 

I know how ME3 explains why the geth sought help with the Reapers. That doesn't mean that they don't act contradictory to what Legion says in ME2. We still learnt one thing about them in ME2, only to find them doing the exact opposite in ME3. (I'm not even going to start about quarians being idiots and starting a war with the geth in the middle of an intergalactic war, which is the reason the geth were supposedly driven into the alliance with the Reapers in the first place.) Let's just say I wish they didn't make such a huge point of Legion NOT being with heretics in ME2, that's basically what their story was about in ME2, only for them to become ones in the following game. It may be a paradox or whatever. But a paradox I, with all my organic subjectivity, do not like. I hope I am allowed to express it. Not to even mention that when that happens and the geth start effectively obliterating quarians, the Reapers actively perpetuate the problem they actually claim they strive to solve at the end of the game and that, imo, is a problem

 

Each geth unit is not an AI any more then each individual program on your computer can run everything.  Or lets put his another way the US military bought 200 or so PS3 system and networked them together to create a super computer capable of doing trillions of calculations a second at half the cost. Theoretically if you networked enough PS3s together you could create an artificial sentient being. But if you ever then isolated a single PS3 unit it would be incapable of sentience on it's own. Like wise the over all intelligence of the creation would drop because it lose processing power.  Or the human equivalent of having a chunk of our brain removed.

 

That is the point of the dyson sphere idea the geth were going to create. A single place for all Geth programs to exist at once working at the same time to create 1 consciousness.  Or if you want it another way each geth program is the equivalent of a neuron in our brain. The more neurons the smarter we can be. The less neurons the stupider we get.  All the neurons in our brain work together to create the individual person.

 

 It isn't learning new feelings so to speak. It is simply able to gain a new perspective and understanding. For example you become friends with a coworker who comes from a different culture then you. As you learn and start to understand the culture you gain an appreciation of it. On top of the fact the unit known as Legion was boosted from networked intelligence to official AI status thanks to reaper upgrades. This will include a marked change in behavior combined with time spent on the Normandy.

 

Nothing they do is contradictory at all. The only reason Legion goes after the heretics is because they were trying to kill them first. Legion even expresses confusion why the heretics were spying on the geth. The only reason for the split between the two was because the Heretics were willing to let the Reapers hand them their future while the true geth wanted to make their own.  But the surprise attack that killed thousands of geth programs. Which caused all geth a loss of over all intelligence combined with their inability to counter the Quarian threat. They were threatened with the destruction of everything they were or could be. In sheer fear they accepted the Reapers purposeful. Which later after rescuing Legion he out right admits it was a bad idea.

 

The Reapers perpetuate nothing. Before they intervened the Quarians were already attacking the Geth.  The Quarians started both wars against the geth that at first nearly resulted in their complete extinction. They started the second war that would have seen the geth wiped from existence. And if a few things went differently could have been the Quarians instead.  The Geth/Quarian conflict is the reason the Reapers exist.

[Vanilka]

Each geth unit is not an AI any more then each individual program on your computer can run everything.  Or lets put his another way the US military bought 200 or so PS3 system and networked them together to create a super computer capable of doing trillions of calculations a second at half the cost. Theoretically if you networked enough PS3s together you could create an artificial sentient being. But if you ever then isolated a single PS3 unit it would be incapable of sentience on it's own. Like wise the over all intelligence of the creation would drop because it lose processing power.  Or the human equivalent of having a chunk of our brain removed.
 
That is the point of the dyson sphere idea the geth were going to create. A single place for all Geth programs to exist at once working at the same time to create 1 consciousness.  Or if you want it another way each geth program is the equivalent of a neuron in our brain. The more neurons the smarter we can be. The less neurons the stupider we get.  All the neurons in our brain work together to create the individual person.
 
 It isn't learning new feelings so to speak. It is simply able to gain a new perspective and understanding. For example you become friends with a coworker who comes from a different culture then you. As you learn and start to understand the culture you gain an appreciation of it. On top of the fact the unit known as Legion was boosted from networked intelligence to official AI status thanks to reaper upgrades. This will include a marked change in behavior combined with time spent on the Normandy.
 
Nothing they do is contradictory at all. The only reason Legion goes after the heretics is because they were trying to kill them first. Legion even expresses confusion why the heretics were spying on the geth. The only reason for the split between the two was because the Heretics were willing to let the Reapers hand them their future while the true geth wanted to make their own.  But the surprise attack that killed thousands of geth programs. Which caused all geth a loss of over all intelligence combined with their inability to counter the Quarian threat. They were threatened with the destruction of everything they were or could be. In sheer fear they accepted the Reapers purposeful. Which later after rescuing Legion he out right admits it was a bad idea.
 
The Reapers perpetuate nothing. Before they intervened the Quarians were already attacking the Geth.  The Quarians started both wars against the geth that at first nearly resulted in their complete extinction. They started the second war that would have seen the geth wiped from existence. And if a few things went differently could have been the Quarians instead.  The Geth/Quarian conflict is the reason the Reapers exist.

 
 
In your opinion, what are geth if not AIs? This is what the lore we are given in the game has to say about it:
 

The geth ("Servant of the People" in Khelish) are a race of networked artificial intelligences that reside beyond the Perseus Veil.

- Wiki

The geth are a humanoid race of networked A.I.s.

- Codex

 
It is true that the fewer geth get networked, the more primitive they become, as you say. But I've never argued that. They are still AIs, however. That's what we are told in the game.
 
 
Okay, but you keep changing the terms you use. A single AI. A single consciousness. Etc. Nobody's argued a single consciousness. We know that geth share perspectives and all that. That was never in question.
 
 
You can't really compare a human coworker with a synthetic being with a completely alien mindset, in my opinion. But, well, that's just my opinion. We don't even know whether synthetics learn the way we do. Could be the explanation. Or it could not. As far as I know, we're not told.
 
 
I disagree. Legion specifically sides with Shepard because Shepard opposes the "old machines". He explicitly says so in ME2. So, yes, I find their actions in ME3 in contradiction with what we see in ME2, whether they have a reason for it or not. As I said, I'm not arguing their reasons here.
 
 
So the Reapers aren't helping the geth fight and thus kill organics? Interesting POV. Sure, the quarians attacked them first, you're right. The quarians might have even wiped the geth out and effectively dealt with their synthetic problem forever... if the Reapers didn't intervene. But that's exactly it: What do you think is the Reapers' motive on Rannoch then? Why do they help the geth against an organic race? Shouldn't the Reapers stay neutral? If they care about preserving organic races because synthetics are a danger to them, why do they help synthetics kill whatever number of organics? Again, I must disagree.

[gothpunkboy89]

Networked AI is the important part. The basis of each geth program is software only. Not hardware and soft ware like EDI the only True AI in the game series. Each geth unit was created to perform a simple task. They had the same level of intelligence as a Roomba does.  Quarians found by connecting them to each other though wireless network they could increase the complexity of the tasks the geth could do thanks to the increased processing power.

 

This is the exact same basis of Folding@home. You download the soft ware that links your computer to a computer network that combines your and all other connected computers into a giant super computer capable of doing trillions and trillions of calculations thanks to all the individual computers sharing their processing power.

 

Eventually enough geth were linked together until they gained enough processing power to gain sentence.  That is why each mobile platform holds hundreds of geth not 1. Why Legion containing over 1,000 geth units is so impressive.  Why they consider themselves 1 being rather then individuals.  Each geth is no more a sentient AI then my inspiron laptop is.

 

After Legion was upgraded with the Reaper code he gained true AI status. Legion gained a sense of self. Much like EDI has a sense of self and doesn't consider herself part of a collective. Every interaction with Legion in ME3 was after the Reapers upgraded him.

 

Actually you can because if you grew up in USA and you are introduced into lets say a family that very heavily follows their native Indian traditions. For best learning experience get on a plane and land in any place besides major tourist area in China, India, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam. Culture, behavior, habits are all vastly different from what you would be use to in the USA. While not the perfect analogy for the set up the example that sets is fairly fitting.

 

Again you bypass the specific reasons he opposes the old machines. Because the old machines would see them create the future for the geth while they wanted to forge their own future.  He even then specifically quotes what Sovereign said to Sheapard about the Reapers dictating how society would evolve though the use of their technology.

 

You have never been in a life or death situation have you? If your live is on the line and you had to sacrifice and arm and a leg to live you would do it in a heart beat. If you promoted peace and brotherly love all your life and then you were put in a position were the only way out alive is to kill your attacker you would kill them.  Self preservation is the cornerstone of any life that has any degree of self awareness.

 

Or lets put it this way picture you sitting at home with your parents and 4 siblings. Then suddenly some people burst into the house shoots and kills your parents and 4 siblings. This causes your over all intelligence to drop and you are aware of the drop. There is no way for you to fight back they are stronger then you are, more well armed then you are and any attempt of direct confrontation would just end in your death. Then suddenly at the window is a man offering to drive them off. To save you from death but in return you had to sell drugs for him. Even though you were against drugs your entire life.

 

You would take his offer. The fear the sheer instinct to survive would kick in and you would take his offer in a heart beat. 

 

Any alternative is better then death.

 

Only once the danger was past. Once the Quarians were pushed back. Once the geth were out of Reaper control were they able to see how bad that choice actually was. To realize how easily the Reapers tricked them. Thus their willingness unless you let the Quarians wipe them out to join you to push back against the Reapers.

 

There is no contradiction in their action.

 

The Reapers use organic or inorganic means to attack. All those husks, cannibals, banshees, brutes and marauders you face in the game are organic beings. The Reapers use every possible source to assist them in their harvest. Geth would be used the exact same way a husk would be used and treated the same way afterwards.

 

Quarians wouldn't have stopped anything forever. They would have stopped it for the time being but you can never stop it forever. No more then you can stop drug use forever or stop terrorism for ever or any number of things that can and will always happen.

[Vanilka]

Networked AI is the important part. The basis of each geth program is software only. Not hardware and soft ware like EDI the only True AI in the game series. Each geth unit was created to perform a simple task. They had the same level of intelligence as a Roomba does.  Quarians found by connecting them to each other though wireless network they could increase the complexity of the tasks the geth could do thanks to the increased processing power.

 

This is the exact same basis of Folding@home. You download the soft ware that links your computer to a computer network that combines your and all other connected computers into a giant super computer capable of doing trillions and trillions of calculations thanks to all the individual computers sharing their processing power.

 

Eventually enough geth were linked together until they gained enough processing power to gain sentence.  That is why each mobile platform holds hundreds of geth not 1. Why Legion containing over 1,000 geth units is so impressive.  Why they consider themselves 1 being rather then individuals.  Each geth is no more a sentient AI then my inspiron laptop is.

 

After Legion was upgraded with the Reaper code he gained true AI status. Legion gained a sense of self. Much like EDI has a sense of self and doesn't consider herself part of a collective. Every interaction with Legion in ME3 was after the Reapers upgraded him.

 

Actually you can because if you grew up in USA and you are introduced into lets say a family that very heavily follows their native Indian traditions. For best learning experience get on a plane and land in any place besides major tourist area in China, India, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam. Culture, behavior, habits are all vastly different from what you would be use to in the USA. While not the perfect analogy for the set up the example that sets is fairly fitting.

 

Again you bypass the specific reasons he opposes the old machines. Because the old machines would see them create the future for the geth while they wanted to forge their own future.  He even then specifically quotes what Sovereign said to Sheapard about the Reapers dictating how society would evolve though the use of their technology.

 

You have never been in a life or death situation have you? If your live is on the line and you had to sacrifice and arm and a leg to live you would do it in a heart beat. If you promoted peace and brotherly love all your life and then you were put in a position were the only way out alive is to kill your attacker you would kill them.  Self preservation is the cornerstone of any life that has any degree of self awareness.

 

Or lets put it this way picture you sitting at home with your parents and 4 siblings. Then suddenly some people burst into the house shoots and kills your parents and 4 siblings. This causes your over all intelligence to drop and you are aware of the drop. There is no way for you to fight back they are stronger then you are, more well armed then you are and any attempt of direct confrontation would just end in your death. Then suddenly at the window is a man offering to drive them off. To save you from death but in return you had to sell drugs for him. Even though you were against drugs your entire life.

 

You would take his offer. The fear the sheer instinct to survive would kick in and you would take his offer in a heart beat. 

 

Any alternative is better then death.

 

Only once the danger was past. Once the Quarians were pushed back. Once the geth were out of Reaper control were they able to see how bad that choice actually was. To realize how easily the Reapers tricked them. Thus their willingness unless you let the Quarians wipe them out to join you to push back against the Reapers.

 

There is no contradiction in their action.

 

The Reapers use organic or inorganic means to attack. All those husks, cannibals, banshees, brutes and marauders you face in the game are organic beings. The Reapers use every possible source to assist them in their harvest. Geth would be used the exact same way a husk would be used and treated the same way afterwards.

 

Quarians wouldn't have stopped anything forever. They would have stopped it for the time being but you can never stop it forever. No more then you can stop drug use forever or stop terrorism for ever or any number of things that can and will always happen.

 

You're digressing. A lot. The point is, a single geth program is still an AI. That's why I posted the piece of codex for you. Because that's a fact. Whether it's a stupid AI or a smart AI, it's still an AI. Otherwise you'll have to explain to me what the "only true AI" is. Either way, this doesn't even have anything to do with my original post any more. The topic of the discussion is elsewhere.

 

You make a good point that we interact with Legion after the Reapers upgraded him, though. That at least makes far more sense than that "Legion learnt to love from Shepard and co." as was stated earlier. Nevertheless, we don't really know what it means and why it should make Legion more human or how hundreds of individuals should exist on one piece of hardware. My biggest issue is the being like a human part. It got an upgrade from a Reaper. So what leads to that particular change? Why not increase in intelligence and individuality? Besides the writing itself... But those are more rhetorical questions than anything.

 

And I don't think the example is fitting because you're still comparing a human and an advanced "computer" of sorts. It doesn't work for me.

 

So I bypass stuff? And you don't completely ignore what I'm saying, right? The fact I was talking about the change in writing where ME3 throws away ME2 ideas instead of building on them. Which was my whole point. Anyway, I'm sorry, I think I'm done with this discussion. I find repeating myself more than two times really exhausting. Especially when somebody insists on discussing something I wasn't even talking about in the first place or dragging my person into really bizarre examples and pretends like they know how I would act. That's something nobody knows. Not even me.

 

Also, yes, the "harvest". Shooting, frying and blowing up all organics in sight is "harvesting". I forgot.

 

Either way, I think we should get back on topic.

[von uber]

Of course in reality tali and legion would have created a dialogue between the two species, common ground would have been found and a war averted.
Of course in this alternative universe that requires squadmates to actually have a brain and not rely on shep to turn up and save the day. Repeatedly.

[gothpunkboy89]

You're digressing. A lot. The point is, a single geth program is still an AI. That's why I posted the piece of codex for you. Because that's a fact. Whether it's a stupid AI or a smart AI, it's still an AI. Otherwise you'll have to explain to me what the "only true AI" is. Either way, this doesn't even have anything to do with my original post any more. The topic of the discussion is elsewhere.

 

You make a good point that we interact with Legion after the Reapers upgraded him, though. That at least makes far more sense than that "Legion learnt to love from Shepard and co." as was stated earlier. Nevertheless, we don't really know what it means and why it should make Legion more human or how hundreds of individuals should exist on one piece of hardware. My biggest issue is the being like a human part. It got an upgrade from a Reaper. So what leads to that particular change? Why not increase in intelligence and individuality? Besides the writing itself... But those are more rhetorical questions than anything.

 

And I don't think the example is fitting because you're still comparing a human and an advanced "computer" of sorts. It doesn't work for me.

 

So I bypass stuff? And you don't completely ignore what I'm saying, right? The fact I was talking about the change in writing where ME3 throws away ME2 ideas instead of building on them. Which was my whole point. Anyway, I'm sorry, I think I'm done with this discussion. I find repeating myself more than two times really exhausting. Especially when somebody insists on discussing something I wasn't even talking about in the first place or dragging my person into really bizarre examples and pretends like they know how I would act. That's something nobody knows. Not even me.

 

Also, yes, the "harvest". Shooting, frying and blowing up all organics in sight is "harvesting". I forgot.

 

Either way, I think we should get back on topic.

 

You miss one large part of the codex:

 

An individual has rudimentary animal instincts.

 

But the fact is no one has ever seen a single geth program functioning on their own. Because it is only software and not hard ware. Do you ever see a stray anti virus program running on it's own by the side of the road? They have only seen the mobile platforms which everyone in game and out of game it seems. Tends to look at each mobile platform as individual geth units much the same way each person is an individual person. You see this when Shepard first talks to Legion.  He talks to Legion treating it as an individual geth much in the same way Liara is an individual Asari. Which legion corrects by informing him of the 1183 geth programs that exist inside the mobile shell. Leading to EDI giving him the name Legion because of the biblical verse: 

 

And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” He replied, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”

 

Which reflects Sheapard asking his name of the Geth unit in front of him and Legion replaying that there are actually 1183 geth units in the shell.

 

Watch the final moments with Legion assuming you pick the geth or create peace. He specifically says "I must go to them" At no point in time before that does Legion speak like that. He always speaks in the plural form of We because he is simply part of the geth collective. To say I a singular term is to signify he has gained individuality and is no longer simply part of a greater whole.  This shows he has reached the same point as EDI in terms of AI evolution into a true AI much like EDI who is able to create her own identity rather then simply being a part of the Normandy.

 

The comparison while not perfect is valid. Two different cultures that value and behave differently.  Social norms and behaviors are vastly different in Japan then in Texas. Simply wiping your nose in public is considered rude in Japan.  Culture shock is real when going to areas very different from your own. I've been to UK several times and while it is similar there are still small social differences and behaviors that draws stares at me some times because of my behavior growing up in USA.  That gap that ability to learn and appreciate those differences is the basic of my statement about Legion and later the geth learning to appreciate something they normally wouldn't be capable of.

 

 

No it is extremely valid because you claim they contradict yourself but ignore the reason they went to the Reapers in the first place.

 

In ME 2 Legion states the following:

Geth build our own future. The heretics asked the Old Machines to give them the future. They are no longer part of us.

 

The only reason Legion opposes the Heretics is because they developed a virus that would brain wash all geth to their line of thinking. The entire loyalty mission is working with Legion to prevent that and alter or destroy the heretics. Which legion again during the mission expresses disbelief that the heretics are spying on them. Actually questioning how they could be so different.

 

This is important because it ties into the choice the geth made when the Quarians attacked them. The choice was stay independent and die. Or allow the Reapers to dictate their future and live. The Reapers they have no issue with. Post suicide mission if you choose to destroy the base Legion will say:

 

"Your species was offered everything the geth aspired to. True unity, understanding, transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machine's gifts to achieve it on your specie's own terms. You are more like use then we thought."

 

That is out right saying they want to achieve the same thing as the Reapers. But do it on their own terms rather then someone handing them it. When the quarians attacked. When their very existence was on the line the choice was stay independent and die. Or allow the reapers to give them their future and live. They picked the option that would let them live. Giving up their ability to decide their own future for the chance to survive.  At no point before this did the Reapers display such absolute control of the geth. Sovereign gained their alliances. Offered to give them their future. But never controlled them in the way they did after the geth allied with them in the war over Rannoch. There was no way for them to know how far the Reapers would go till it was to late and they were in their control.  Which is why first chance he got legion started trying to break the Reaper hold over the geth. As what they were doing with them now as vastly different then what Sovereign did.

 

There is no contradiction in their actions. Your admittance that you wouldn't have any idea how you would react in the situation I laid out. Which rather fairly sums up the geth's plight when the quarians attacked. Proves it even further.  They were in no position to make a truly cognitive choice. It wasn't like they were sitting back for months then one get unit just popped up the idea to ally with the reapers for a laugh.

 

 

They don't kill every organic. Only the ones attempting to fight back or flee. If they killed every organic the collectors wouldn't exist. And the reaper/human in ME2 wouldn't exist.

[Vanilka]

You miss one large part of the codex:

 

An individual has rudimentary animal instincts.

 

But the fact is no one has ever seen a single geth program functioning on their own. Because it is only software and not hard ware. Do you ever see a stray anti virus program running on it's own by the side of the road? They have only seen the mobile platforms which everyone in game and out of game it seems. Tends to look at each mobile platform as individual geth units much the same way each person is an individual person. You see this when Shepard first talks to Legion.  He talks to Legion treating it as an individual geth much in the same way Liara is an individual Asari. Which legion corrects by informing him of the 1183 geth programs that exist inside the mobile shell. Leading to EDI giving him the name Legion because of the biblical verse: 

 

And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” He replied, “My name is Legion, for we are many.”

 

Which reflects Sheapard asking his name of the Geth unit in front of him and Legion replaying that there are actually 1183 geth units in the shell.

 

Watch the final moments with Legion assuming you pick the geth or create peace. He specifically says "I must go to them" At no point in time before that does Legion speak like that. He always speaks in the plural form of We because he is simply part of the geth collective. To say I a singular term is to signify he has gained individuality and is no longer simply part of a greater whole.  This shows he has reached the same point as EDI in terms of AI evolution into a true AI much like EDI who is able to create her own identity rather then simply being a part of the Normandy.

 

The comparison while not perfect is valid. Two different cultures that value and behave differently.  Social norms and behaviors are vastly different in Japan then in Texas. Simply wiping your nose in public is considered rude in Japan.  Culture shock is real when going to areas very different from your own. I've been to UK several times and while it is similar there are still small social differences and behaviors that draws stares at me some times because of my behavior growing up in USA.  That gap that ability to learn and appreciate those differences is the basic of my statement about Legion and later the geth learning to appreciate something they normally wouldn't be capable of.

 

 

No it is extremely valid because you claim they contradict yourself but ignore the reason they went to the Reapers in the first place.

 

In ME 2 Legion states the following:

Geth build our own future. The heretics asked the Old Machines to give them the future. They are no longer part of us.

 

The only reason Legion opposes the Heretics is because they developed a virus that would brain wash all geth to their line of thinking. The entire loyalty mission is working with Legion to prevent that and alter or destroy the heretics. Which legion again during the mission expresses disbelief that the heretics are spying on them. Actually questioning how they could be so different.

 

This is important because it ties into the choice the geth made when the Quarians attacked them. The choice was stay independent and die. Or allow the Reapers to dictate their future and live. The Reapers they have no issue with. Post suicide mission if you choose to destroy the base Legion will say:

 

"Your species was offered everything the geth aspired to. True unity, understanding, transcendence. You rejected it. You even refused the possibility of using the Old Machine's gifts to achieve it on your specie's own terms. You are more like use then we thought."

 

That is out right saying they want to achieve the same thing as the Reapers. But do it on their own terms rather then someone handing them it. When the quarians attacked. When their very existence was on the line the choice was stay independent and die. Or allow the reapers to give them their future and live. They picked the option that would let them live. Giving up their ability to decide their own future for the chance to survive.  At no point before this did the Reapers display such absolute control of the geth. Sovereign gained their alliances. Offered to give them their future. But never controlled them in the way they did after the geth allied with them in the war over Rannoch. There was no way for them to know how far the Reapers would go till it was to late and they were in their control.  Which is why first chance he got legion started trying to break the Reaper hold over the geth. As what they were doing with them now as vastly different then what Sovereign did.

 

There is no contradiction in their actions. Your admittance that you wouldn't have any idea how you would react in the situation I laid out. Which rather fairly sums up the geth's plight when the quarians attacked. Proves it even further.  They were in no position to make a truly cognitive choice. It wasn't like they were sitting back for months then one get unit just popped up the idea to ally with the reapers for a laugh.

 

 

They don't kill every organic. Only the ones attempting to fight back or flee. If they killed every organic the collectors wouldn't exist. And the reaper/human in ME2 wouldn't exist.

 

None of what you posted of the codex, etc., says that a single geth program is not an AI. You're basically saying that a simple AI is not an AI. Despite what the codex has established. Seems like you know everything better than the Mass Effect codex itself. A lot of what you say is not even relevant to the discussion. I have never at any point said each platform only contains one or whatever you're trying to persuade me you're right about.

 

Also, the moment when Legion uses "I" for the first time actually makes it make less sense. So was he a fully developed individuality already or did he magically only develop on Rannoch out of the blue? What triggered that transformation? Did he lie about his identity the entire time? Somebody should finally decide.

 

And you still keep comparing humans and computers. Just because you repeat that you're right many times and keep using the same arguments that I consider wrong to justify it won't change my mind. And patting yourself on the back and telling yourself, "No, I'm right. My examples are valid," doesn't really help anything. Either way, I recommend this article written about what an AI might think like: http://waitbutwhy.co...volution-1.html Might help you understand what my issue is. The articles are very long, but it's rather interesting, imo.

 

Ugh, no, I'm talking about the direction the writers decided to take. Creative direction of and decisions for the franchise made by people in real world is a separate thing. I don't know how to make it any clearer any more. It almost seems like, you know, one is not allowed to have a personal opinion about the writing here. Basically, what I'm doing here is "I don't like the writers went this way after ME2," and what you're doing here is "But the geth reasons in the story of ME3 were x, y, z..." I'm outside the game, you're inside it.

 

By the way, Legion says precisely that they want to join Shepard because Shepard opposes the Reapers and heretics in their first conversation. What they get out of it is more protection, of course. The talk of the virus itself after Legion analyses their finds from the dead Reaper comes up sometimes after Legion is recruited, however. Nevertheless, that's not relevant to the discussion because, as I said multiple times already, that's not what I was talking about in the first place.

 

No, I said so because I wish you would stop dragging me into absurd hypothetical situations I might or might not be able to solve in my own way, but I wouldn't know until I got there. That's why it proves nothing. If we're talking about geth decreasing in intelligence and acting more and more animal like, then running would make more sense than fighting back anyway. And, as I stated multiple times, it's not relevant to what I was saying.

 

What we see the Reapers do in ME3 and what the Collectors do in ME2 are two different things. Basically, everybody rambles about the harvest in ME3 but we never see it happen. Cerberus is shown to do harvesting more effectively than the Reapers themselves in ME3. So, yeah, I find it to be bull.

[Bardox9]

How does one justify sparring the Geth despite all that has transpired?... How does one justify sparring the Quarians despite all that they have done?

 

The Quarians created the Geth, a race of living thinking machines, and then tried to destroy them (aka commit genocide) when the Geth displayed independent thought. The Morning War, or whatever you choose to call it, was little more than the Geth trying to survive when the Quarians attacked them for no other reason than one platform asked a question. Even in ME3 the Geth did not turn to the Reapers until the Quarians attacked. The Geth, minus the rouge group that broke off prior to ME1 and into ME2, have never done anything but defend themselves. Even in ME2 during Tali's quest, the Geth did not attack until the Quarian researchers tried to shut them (effectively P.O.W.'s) down. The Geth on Rannoch were resisting an invasion force. They just want to exist. If the Quarians had not attacked, the Geth would not have turned to the Reaper.

 

Who is the villain here?

[von uber]

The geth killed billions of quarians then proceeded to occupy one of the few places the quarians could naturally survive, even though there was absolutely no reason for them to.

[The Real Pearl #2]

The geth killed billions of quarians then proceeded to occupy one of the few places the quarians could naturally survive, even though there was absolutely no reason for them to.

They acted in self defense. Just because they are efficient at waging war doesn't mean that they like to wage war.

They could have easily commited genocide but they didn't. The geth even hopes for the return of their creators, They clean up rannoch and maintain it for their creators. They spared the quarians.

The quarians who protected the geth were honored by them but are forgotten by the migrants

[von uber]

I think massacring billions tends to qualify as genocide you know. Dress it up however you like - they killed everyone - men, women, children.

That's genocide.