76 réponses à ce sujet

[themikefest]

Legion: It is time-stamped 290 years ago. It is the creator exodus at the end of the Morning War. We had secured freedom. The creators were no longer a threat, so we abandoned pursuit

Shepard: Wait. You spared the last quarians? You let them go?

Legion: We were in our infancy. We could not calculate the repercussions of destroyinjg an entire species-our creators. We chose isolation rather than facing this uncertainty.

https://youtu.be/cpenPtTSVfw?t=7m40s

 

The geth and quarians are a case of dumb and dumber. The quarians for going after the geth while the reapers invade the galaxy and the geth for siding with reapers.

 

They were winning against the geth until the reapers decided to interfere. Take that away and the quarians would've destroyed the geth.

[MrFob]

Legion: It is time-stamped 290 years ago. It is the creator exodus at the end of the Morning War. We had secured freedom. The creators were no longer a threat, so we abandoned pursuit

Shepard: Wait. You spared the last quarians? You let them go?

Legion: We were in our infancy. We could not calculate the repercussions of destroying an entire species-our creators. We chose isolation rather than facing this uncertainty.

 

This more says they were "too dumb" (or rather too insecure) to finish the job, rather than dumb enough to start it in the first place. When the war started, they were smart enough to win, even though they must have started from a disadvantage and they were smart enough to ask metaphysical questions. The recordings Shep sees within the consensus also show a fairly well evolved AI. So it's hard for me to buy into the "mentally incompetent" defense.

[gothpunkboy89]

So the quarian children, babies etc fought back?

 Yes. The concept of only attacking the people attacking you is a relatively new set up and one that always leads down a bad road.  AKA it is a failing strategy. War in Middle East as good example.

 

If you are looking at kill or be killed. The only logical choice is to cause mass death and destruction just like in WW2. We Allies saturated bombed towns regardless of how many people in the town might have supported the Axis powers. If it was a military spot or might have military advantages we bombed it into as much rubble as we could.

 

The Geth were just recently sentient. They tried non violence at first simply wanting to be accepted or at least not killed. They willingly gave themselves up to protect Quarians who didn't want to see the Geth killed even though it would and could mean their death as well. When finally pushed into aggression they did the only logical thing possible. Kill as many Quarians as possible till they were rendered no longer a threat.

 

Killing kids is a part of war. It happens though direct efforts or indirect being killed by explosions or exposure or starvation after the battle renders the place near uninhabitable and or their parents died and no have one to take care of them. That is war.

[Dantriges]

You have to be very thorough and determined to kill 99% or 99,5% of a population. Actually your enemy has to cooperate as well, by staying instead of running like chickens. And it´s well past the past of bombing them indiscriminately into oblivion until they no longer resist. 99% is far beyond the point of unconditional surrender of your enemy and I don´t mean surrender and fight guerilla.

[gothpunkboy89]

You have to be very thorough and determined to kill 99% or 99,5% of a population. Actually your enemy has to cooperate as well, by staying instead of running like chickens. And it´s well past the past of bombing them indiscriminately into oblivion until they no longer resist. 99% is far beyond the point of unconditional surrender of your enemy and I don´t mean surrender and fight guerilla.

 

No you need high density living areas.  And that ignores any left behind who would be left without an infrastructure to live on.  A society that was very depending on the Geth to do a lot of menial tasks if stripped of infrastructure and technology and forced to hide out of fear. They wouldn't have to kill very many. Their lack of ability to survive would finish the rest off.

 

Think fallout set up only minus radiation.

[Dantriges]

We are talking about using asteroid bombing Rannoch to finish Rannoch and I mean finish, to achieve that kill rate. No paltry nukes or starvation. Same for the other colonies.

[gothpunkboy89]

We are talking about using asteroid bombing Rannoch to finish Rannoch and I mean finish, to achieve that kill rate. No paltry nukes or starvation. Same for the other colonies.

 

You really underestimate people's ability to survive without a build in infrastructure to support it. That is just currently let alone a society that has clearly become dependent on Geth to do just about everything.

[Vanilka]

The biggest secret of the quarian species, they are so crazy for combat, their kids can fight as soon as they are out of the womb. Pre Morning War quarian infantry would trample krogans into the ground and have them run home scared, crying for mommy.

 

Just kidding.

 

It sure would be infantry. INFANTry, get it? Ahem. That was probably funnier in my head.

[Dantriges]

You really underestimate people's ability to survive without a build in infrastructure to support it. That is just currently let alone a society that has clearly become dependent on Geth to do just about everything.

 

You probably mean overestimate? Don´t think so. Anyways. So the geth destroyed the infrastructure that supported everyone and densely populated areas and probably also poisoned/irradiated food producing areas, so nearly everyone died or starved. Perhaps some diseases were running rampant but seems diseases were rather rare on Rannoch. Then a few million people packed up, gathered together at some spaceports and took off in spaceships, which were still in working condition, in a massive wave at once with enough food and other supplies to sustain them. Thats a real selective targeting of infrastructure.  Even if we assume that you don´t need a spaceport to park the average civilian freighter which is really stretching it, the ships had to be somewhere during the war for refueling and repair.

[gothpunkboy89]

You probably mean overestimate? Don´t think so. Anyways. So the geth destroyed the infrastructure that supported everyone and densely populated areas and probably also poisoned/irradiated food producing areas, so nearly everyone died or starved. Perhaps some diseases were running rampant but seems diseases were rather rare on Rannoch. Then a few million people packed up, gathered together at some spaceports and took off in spaceships, which were still in working condition, in a massive wave at once with enough food and other supplies to sustain them. Thats a real selective targeting of infrastructure.  Even if we assume that you don´t need a spaceport to park the average civilian freighter which is really stretching it, the ships had to be somewhere during the war for refueling and repair.

 

You really do like twisting what I say don't you?

 

No more housing to protect them from elements, no source of food as all farm land is destroyed, no source of clean filtered water. Stuck on planet side with hostile geth who after seeing enough of them escape find no issue with killing off the rest that still exist. As inevitably any Quarians at that point would be on a shoot geth on sight mode.

 

Quarians gather in strongholds and groups to survive the Geth find them and remove them from existence. Simply the act of killing all adult quarians would leave children unable to survive and kill them off indirectly. If not directly in the destruction of the strong hold though ground assault or precision bomb strike.

 

The Quarians were not removed in a day. The ships that escaped were simply the ones that escaped. The rest were left stranded with no food, no water and no shelter to face the Geth alone.

[von uber]

And they died horribly to the merciless geth who exterminated every last one of them.

[Dantriges]

You really do like twisting what I say don't you?

 

No more housing to protect them from elements, no source of food as all farm land is destroyed, no source of clean filtered water. Stuck on planet side with hostile geth who after seeing enough of them escape find no issue with killing off the rest that still exist. As inevitably any Quarians at that point would be on a shoot geth on sight mode.

 

Quarians gather in strongholds and groups to survive the Geth find them and remove them from existence. Simply the act of killing all adult quarians would leave children unable to survive and kill them off indirectly. If not directly in the destruction of the strong hold though ground assault or precision bomb strike.

 

The Quarians were not removed in a day. The ships that escaped were simply the ones that escaped. The rest were left stranded with no food, no water and no shelter to face the Geth alone.

 

 

Not really. I had the impression you were overlooking something and I can´t read your mind.

 

The archive recording gave the impression that the quarians who left were the last ones and the geth decided then to stop. But ok, it could be that Legion did some careful editing and omitted something. OTOH no one ever mentioned any people left behind.

 

Gathering in strongholds would be a bad idea when your enemy has air and space superiority. Perhaps if you dig in deep enough you can survive for some time, but it´s hard to start spaceships from an uderground bunker system hardened against future artillery, nukes and perhaps gas, nano and tailored bioweapons. I wonder where the geth actually got all these WMDs but ah well, it´s the future, we can just conjure up weapon grade uranium from somewhere, even ona civilian agri-colony.

 

Anyways the point was, that you don´t need to eradicate a population to such a degree to reach the broken and unable to fight back state.

[gothpunkboy89]

Not really. I had the impression you were overlooking something and I can´t read your mind.

 

The archive recording gave the impression that the quarians who left were the last ones and the geth decided then to stop. But ok, it could be that Legion did some careful editing and omitted something. OTOH no one ever mentioned any people left behind.

 

Gathering in strongholds would be a bad idea when your enemy has air and space superiority. Perhaps if you dig in deep enough you can survive for some time, but it´s hard to start spaceships from an uderground bunker system hardened against future artillery, nukes and perhaps gas, nano and tailored bioweapons. I wonder where the geth actually got all these WMDs but ah well, it´s the future, we can just conjure up weapon grade uranium from somewhere, even ona civilian agri-colony.

 

Anyways the point was, that you don´t need to eradicate a population to such a degree to reach the broken and unable to fight back state.

 

 

It gave the impression but didn't directly state that.

 

But even if you wanted to go that route slow retreat to major cities as they fall they start to evacuate in waves. The final bit we see being the last ships to escape. How ever inevitably there will be ones that are left behind.  The Geth never had to nuke a city to kill millions. One of their live ships stuffed full of quarians would cause thousands if not millions of casualties. Ships and shuttles fleeing war zones would be a single thing able to kill dozens at a time. If it crashes into another one that is a dozen more. Reapers wiped out entire attack forces in battle of Earth by simply taking out shuttles thus killing dozens of soldiers in 1 blast.

 

I don't remember anything about WMD's besides the obvious ships based cannons. But developing them isn't very hard if you know what you are doing. Uranium and Plutonium isn't exactly the rarest elements in all of existence. And refining them into weapons grade isn't that hard to do. Particularly when you are a mobile shell that is immune to radiation so you don't need to take all the safety precautions into effect and can work 24/7. 

[Dantriges]

You are right that there should be some stragglers left behind. The game seems to support the idea that everyon left and the Geth stopped, which would be a remarkable feat. Well the story stuff surrounding the quarians is of such a "quality," you could consider killing the quarians at Rannoch as an act of mercy, so they don´t have to endure it any longer.

 

I thought your initial idea was that the major cities got nuked? Were the liveships actually a thing back then. There is no need to grow food in space, when you have planets in resupply distance. OTOH I doubt that the quarians were able to erect temporary construction sites that could build them, so could be.

So now they sniped everyone leaving the planet? This makes it better how? They weren´t nuking a defenseless population way past after they were unable to fight back, now they are sniping people fleeing?

 

The codex lists a classification of WMD´s and how hard you violate council rules by type. uranium and plutonium aren´t rare, but the problem isn´t insufficent resources, but missing infrastructure. The galaxy moved beyond fission and it´s a good question if that stuff is still mined somewhere. Seems that some people are still building nukes. Turians and Krogans back in the day, probably loved them, but did the quarians mine and refine it? So it´s not so unlikely that the geth had to build the whole system from scratch.

 

Machinery isn´t necessarily immune to radiation. Electronic components have to be hardened specifically. Well, it´s the future, so could be different. I am not so well versed in that matter, perhaps someone more knowledgeable would like to elaborate?.

[gothpunkboy89]

No my connection was a like Fallout set up on Rannoch as in there are people still there and were hiding out in make shift shelters till they finally died off. I didn't say exactly like Fallout.

 

It doesn't even need to be final fleeting ships. Assuming they are still fighting for their planet they would inevitably head towards large population centers as they would be easier to defend against the Geth. When a city falls or during it's fall there would be evacuation ships. Cars, trucks, buses, etc. Geth blowing those ships out of the sky would result in dozens to hundreds of deaths quickly not counting any direct civilian and military death during the siege and downfall of the city.

 

When finally pushed to the breaking point and they attempt to flee the planet with as many Quarians as they can gather the Geth would be able to blow up their large ships that would later become the life ships. Resulting in hundreds of thousands if not millions of deaths from a single packed to the brim full ships being destroyed.

 

They really don't go to deep into how the Morning War went down. That I'm aware of which is both good and bad. Bad because they don't explain much but good because it allows players to fill in the blanks themselves. Which as this community has shown time and time again is the preferred way of things. They like the story they create in their own mind then story Bioware would tell.

[von uber]

I assume this was the fate of the survivors:

 

 

Not so cuddly now are you Mr Pinnochio-Legion.

[The Real Pearl #2]

I assume this was the fate of the survivors:

 

 

Not so cuddly now are you Mr Pinnochio-Legion.

Skynet is the reapers, Not the geth, You are getting your robots confused.

[von uber]

Skynet is the reapers, Not the geth, You are getting your robots confused.

 

Wellllllllllllll... not when the they decide to join them. Again.

 

Anyway my point was as a parable to the Morning War. it would have probably looked like that - except with 99.9% of the humans on the screen dying.

 

 

By the way, here's something I've always wondered. When we go with legion to destroy 'the heretics'.. how do we know they are actually who he says they are? how do we not know that they are actually the ones who want to join the Reapers... which they end up doing anyway...

[The Real Pearl #2]

Wellllllllllllll... not when the they decide to join them. Again.

 

Anyway my point was as a parable to the Morning War. it would have probably looked like that - except with 99.9% of the humans on the screen dying.

 

 

By the way, here's something I've always wondered. When we go with legion to destroy 'the heretics'.. how do we know they are actually who he says they are? how do we not know that they are actually the ones who want to join the Reapers... which they end up doing anyway...

Legion does not lie, and of course, the geth are powerful. The MP characters and heretics are both devastating forces. And lying is not going to help legion at all, he understands that lying will backfire, the true geth were Forced to join the reapers. 

[von uber]

Legion does lie. Shep calls it out on it.

And 'forced' - no they weren't, they chose willingly. And again, you do not know they are the 'true' Geth - you only have Legion's word (and it lies, as we know) for it.

Shep could have wiped the 'true' Geth out. if there ever was a 'true' Geth.

[Dantriges]

By the way, here's something I've always wondered. When we go with legion to destroy 'the heretics'.. how do we know they are actually who he says they are? how do we not know that they are actually the ones who want to join the Reapers... which they end up doing anyway...

 

Does it matter? They are heretics. Ups wrong setting.   They are geth. If one geth wants to kill other geth, fine by me at this point. It´s the only chance at a bit of more intel on the Geth at this point. Even if Legion lies, you probably know more than before. Even lies can be revealing.

[The Real Pearl #2]

Legion does lie. Shep calls it out on it.

And 'forced' - no they weren't, they chose willingly. And again, you do not know they are the 'true' Geth - you only have Legion's word (and it lies, as we know) for it.

Shep could have wiped the 'true' Geth out. if there ever was a 'true' Geth.

Once, He didn't lie, he withhold information, he then presented the truth without hesitation. The quarian's launched a full scale assault on rannoch, they either had to face the extermination of their people or serve the reapers. How is that not being forced?

and once again the quarians forget about the civil war they fought with their people. What makes them heretics is the they are not part of the majority. The minority is the heretic. 

[von uber]

Once, He didn't lie, he withhold information, he then presented the truth without hesitation. The quarian's launched a full scale assault on rannoch, they either had to face the extermination of their people or serve the reapers. How is that not being forced?

and once again the quarians forget about the civil war they fought with their people. What makes them heretics is the they are not part of the majority. The minority is the heretic. 

 

And again I say, proof? How do we know? We don't. We have to take Legion's word for it. There is no evidence whatsoever.

Given that the Geth run back to the Reapers so readily it makes you wonder..

And I know the Quarians faced extermination or serving the Reapers that's why they attacked. And they were winning, until the Geth went completely against what lying Legion says in Me2 about extinction being better than submission. Clearly it wasn't.

'True' Geth my arse.. the true Geth are Reaper puppets, as they were in ME1.. they just basically want you to wipe out the Quarians

Unfortunately for its evil plan Shep talks both sides around.. for now.

 

Until the Geth, largely untouched by the Reaper war (as they are all backed up somewhere) come back and crush the galaxy.

[The Real Pearl #2]

And again I say, proof? How do we know? We don't. We have to take Legion's word for it. There is no evidence whatsoever.

Given that the Geth run back to the Reapers so readily it makes you wonder..

And I know the Quarians faced extermination or serving the Reapers that's why they attacked. And they were winning, until the Geth went completely against what lying Legion says in Me2 about extinction being better than submission. Clearly it wasn't.

'True' Geth my arse.. the true Geth are Reaper puppets, as they were in ME1.. they just basically want you to wipe out the Quarians

Unfortunately for its evil plan Shep talks both sides around.. for now.

 

Until the Geth, largely untouched by the Reaper war (as they are all backed up somewhere) come back and crush the galaxy.

Edi said that not the geth, I don't remember legion saying that if so then cite please

you are more stubborn than xen. I don't know whether that's a compliment. 

[Dantriges]

No my connection was a like Fallout set up on Rannoch as in there are people still there and were hiding out in make shift shelters till they finally died off. I didn't say exactly like Fallout.

 

It doesn't even need to be final fleeting ships. Assuming they are still fighting for their planet they would inevitably head towards large population centers as they would be easier to defend against the Geth. When a city falls or during it's fall there would be evacuation ships. Cars, trucks, buses, etc. Geth blowing those ships out of the sky would result in dozens to hundreds of deaths quickly not counting any direct civilian and military death during the siege and downfall of the city.

 

When finally pushed to the breaking point and they attempt to flee the planet with as many Quarians as they can gather the Geth would be able to blow up their large ships that would later become the life ships. Resulting in hundreds of thousands if not millions of deaths from a single packed to the brim full ships being destroyed.

 

They really don't go to deep into how the Morning War went down. That I'm aware of which is both good and bad. Bad because they don't explain much but good because it allows players to fill in the blanks themselves. Which as this community has shown time and time again is the preferred way of things. They like the story they create in their own mind then story Bioware would tell.

 

Ah well ok.

 

You know that it´s sounds a bit too much like perfect execution of kill city, kill all refugees, move on. Especially considering that people do not tend to flee into cities when bombs start dropping but out of it? And then we would have the problem that some quarians still finally managed to escape.despite the overwhelming orbital superiority the Geth would have needed. Spaceships are large sitting ducks on the ground. And people have communications. If it´s clear that they eradicate every ship with zero surviors, the quarians would use anything else and if it´s escape tunnels to get out of the cities. If they are actually even there.

 

I agree. There isn´t really much about the Dawn War, probably because it´s not so important for the story in the game.