119 réponses à ce sujet

[ModernAcademic]

But what about Arlathan and the dominion of elven mages over elven slaves?

 

The elves had a past of greatness. They didn't start out as victims. They composed a highly hierarchical society,with arrogant leaders who compared themselves to gods.

[Carmen_Willow]

But what about Arlathan and the dominion of elven mages over elven slaves?

 

The elves had a past of greatness. They didn't start out as victims. They composed a highly hierarchical society,with arrogant leaders who compared themselves to gods.

I forget the timeline, but Arlathen was founded almost eight thousand years before the Dragon Age, Tevinter was founded almost three thousand years before Dragon Age and a thousand years before Andraste. A culture that rose and fell that long ago, a culture that self-destructed that long ago would leave little behind in the way of mores. As we've seen, even the history has been distorted, the meaning of the face tattooing (we should have guess from its meaning for Dwarven culture), the nature of the "gods." Arlathen was rent apart by its own. If the culture fails so completely, it gets lost.

 

Look at what happened to the Mayan culture, already rocked by some regional environmental change, its people abandoning settlements to survive, they were already in crisis when the Spaniards invaded and did their thing. The people were often enslaved (like the elves) and scattered, interbred with the conquering culture (and no doubt picking up their mores), their records were destroyed (only one or two have ever been found) by the Christians. The same thing with Babylon, Sumer and other very ancient cultures. So little is left, it is hard to tell how much of the original cultural norms still exist in their descendants. The current elven culture (City/Dalish) is what, two eons old, much like Christian culture (even to the point of having Schisms), that's fairly new.

 

I think the point I am trying to make is that while culture is difficult to change, given enough time and pressure it can be changed, it can be eradicated.

[In Exile]

 

Well, yeah, but DA2 made it clear that Meredith was zealously crushing any and all form of dissent, with the notable exceptions of Hawke and Elthina, who were the two remaining authorities in town too powerful to be bullied with impunity, and even they were standing on thinning ice.

 

***

 

 

You don't need to be hailed as a hero by most: you just need enough people who regard your actions as heroic to follow you personally or follow in your footsteps.

 

And that's where oppression plays a role: recent studies by political scientists and historians have shown that there's a clear link between how oppressive established authorities are and the success of violent rebellions:

Relevant quote:

 

Anders expected "the government" -in that case, the corrupt (and increasingly infamous about it) Templar Order- to overreact and crank up its persecution not only against mages but against everyone suspected of being a mage sympathizer, which in turn would push the population as a whole to reject them and side with the mages by default.

Had Anders' paranoia been completely groundless and the Templar Order half as honorable as it claimed to be, he would have remained a lone madman.

But the Order reacted exactly as Anders predicted: its local commander used the murder as an excuse to commit the massacre she already wanted to commit, then the other branches cranked up the oppression while treating with utter contempt the more level-headed authority figures' calls for restraint, and by the time Inquisition rolled in, Templars were executing farmers for the crime of wearing a shovel and on the verge of pledging themselves to Corypheus.

And all that for what result? No matter who becomes the next Divine, by Trespasser's end the Circles no longer have full control over southern Mages, with Vivienne's political maneuvering -Not the Templars' unfettered violence- being the reason there's still a vestige of the Circles to begin with.

 

So yes, in the end, a clear majority regarded Anders as a loon, but that didn't stop the rebellious faction he inspired to emerge victorious in the end.

 

 

But he didn't inspire the mages. That's the whole point. Hawke inspired (fearing them or not) them, to a degree, but mostly it was what happened at Cumberland and the way in which the templars absolutely tried to slaugther the Conclave that got them up in arms. Ultimately, Kirkwall was irrelevant.

[In Exile]

One of the hardest things to change is culture. Culture has been imposed on weak groups by the strong and decades and centuries later the weaker culture still survives. Of course the strongest proof of this is the culture the Elven Alienages imitate - that of the European Jews. Centuries later and both cultures survive, Jewish culture and those cultures that hate Jewish culture. Changing the beliefs and mores your parents and others in your ethnic or national or religious group have taught you is incredibly difficult Even those who rebel carry it forward in a negative or mirror image. As the Jesuits said, "Give us a child until he is seven, and he is ours forever." 

 

It's not really a good parallel, because the way Judaism survived culturally and religiously is nothing like the CEs. The CEs live in ghettos, but otherwise it doesn't work at all. The CEs have a unique mix of Andrastian culture and their own abuse. 

[Carmen_Willow]

It's not really a good parallel, because the way Judaism survived culturally and religiously is nothing like the CEs. The CEs live in ghettos, but otherwise it doesn't work at all. The CEs have a unique mix of Andrastian culture and their own abuse. 

No analogy is perfect; however,  I'd love to know how you believe they differ.

[Riot Inducer]

There's also the Lavellan elves that  have a seat in Wycome's council and possibly an alliance with Kirkwall and the support of the Red Jennies. 

 

I'm sorry but I do have to nitpick a bit, clan Lavellan is a terrible choice to use as an example. They only get the Wycome seat at the end of a 6 event long wartable mission during which the clan can be killed off at any of the 6 stages. Statistically speaking the Lavellan elves only have about a 10% chance to survive the events of Inquisition.

 

Honestly the treatment of the Elven Inquisitor's racial war table mission was the main thing I didn't like regarding how elves were treated or portrayed in Inquisition. Most other racial war table mission has two, maybe three steps and NONE of them can result in the Inquisitor's family or friends being massacred. A LOT of effort went into trying to **** over Elven Inquisitors and you don't even get anyone mentioning it until Trespasser. It's very jarring and has so little reaction from the game it feels like a big middle finger from the writers for playing an elf. Yeah I get it, elves have it rough, but the implementation of that mission line just felt especially cruel given how little feedback you're given for ****** up (which is remarkably easy given you have a 50/50 chance of doing SIX times). 

[ModernAcademic]

I wonder why is it that dwarves and humans get along just fine, but elves have a real problem with humans.

 

 

Humans have helped elves at every turn. After the mage leaders of Arlathan ruled for thousands of years by enslaving their own kind, the Veil was lifted and elves had nowhere to go. Humans helped them settle in the Dales and made an agreement with them: of never disturbing the elven society.

 

Then, when elves were supposed to help defend innocents against the darkspawn, they let humans die.

 

Humans then expelled them from the Dales and elves once agin became homeless wanderers. Humans gave them YET another chance, by letting them live near cities and giving them jobs.

 

Those who refused became the Dalish and have nurtured a culture of hatred toward humans. Now, some clans prey on human merchants, looting and killing their caravans. And those who stray accidentally too near a clan can be mercilessly killed (Dalish origin in DA:O).

 

Why this hatred toward humans when they helped elves so many times?

[Yumakooma]

Its just because they are the weakest race at this moment. Whoever is weakest gets picked on the most usually. Humans and Dwarves and Qunari have their own huge societies and cities, leaders and armies. Elves don't seem to have that on the same level as the other races up until where we have played to in Dragon Age.

 

I'm not a lore expert like some people here but the impression I got at the end of Inquisition, the elves seemed like they wanted to join Solas unless he was forcing them. The elves know that they might be the only race left with any power if Solas is successful, unless Solas is lying to Elves he recruits. My point is, they seem to be just as eager to take everybody down as the Qunari do. The humans have always wanted to do this, and the Dwarves aren't exactly best of friends with any of the other races. All of them have a lust for power to a degree and the Elves have been shoved to the bottom of the order, maybe they won't be there soon and humans will be, or all will be equal, who knows.

 

I just think it comes down to their weak position at the moment and throughout their more recent history, and the humans in particular taking advantage over their position to control the elves because they can. Just the thoughts of a casual player who hasn't tried to read so deeply into it

[The Baconer]

Humans have helped elves at every turn. After the mage leaders of Arlathan ruled for thousands of years by enslaving their own kind, the Veil was lifted and elves had nowhere to go. Humans helped them settle in the Dales and made an agreement with them: of never disturbing the elven society.

 

At least be honest with the chronology of events. 

[Master Warder Z_]

At least be honest with the chronology of events. 

 

Hey the elves were killing humans at first contact.

 

Its like HK-47 said: "I have always been hostile."

[ShadowLordXII]

I wonder why is it that dwarves and humans get along just fine, but elves have a real problem with humans.

 

 

Humans have helped elves at every turn. After the mage leaders of Arlathan ruled for thousands of years by enslaving their own kind, the Veil was lifted and elves had nowhere to go. Humans helped them settle in the Dales and made an agreement with them: of never disturbing the elven society.

 

Then, when elves were supposed to help defend innocents against the darkspawn, they let humans die.

 

Humans then expelled them from the Dales and elves once agin became homeless wanderers. Humans gave them YET another chance, by letting them live near cities and giving them jobs.

 

Those who refused became the Dalish and have nurtured a culture of hatred toward humans. Now, some clans prey on human merchants, looting and killing their caravans. And those who stray accidentally too near a clan can be mercilessly killed (Dalish origin in DA:O).

 

Why this hatred toward humans when they helped elves so many times?

 

Oh you only left out the important bits about Tevinter humans aggressively seizing Arlathan and enslaving it's people.

 

The Blight is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. (It's likely that the Dales simply couldn't afford the risk or they figured that Montsimmard was lost and it was pointless to ) The war against the Dales was a consequence of systematic cultural, religious pressure and propaganda manipulation from Orlais and the Chantry who used the March as an excuse to put down the elves.

 

And how about those lovely alienages? Poor districts where elves are forbidden (de facto or de jure) from defending themselves, having legal decent paying jobs and are subject to human oppression and discrimination. Then any attempt to fight back against this oppression has the ELVES labeled as the bad guys and are punished with violence and death. Did I forget to mention that graduating chevaliers "test their blades" by mass murdering elves?

 

History's pretty clear here. The answer is right there.

[Master Warder Z_]

The war against the Dales was a consequence of systematic cultural, religious pressure and propaganda manipulation from Orlais and the Chantry 

History's pretty clear here. The answer is right there.

 

...You seem to be forgetting the bit where Orlais, The Chantry were actually telling the truth despite elf lovers suggesting otherwise that it wasn't the case, but lo and behold they sent armed forces across a border, murdered a bunch of people and kicked off a war that ended up biting them in the ass hard.

 

...Sort of like the Ottomans in Poland in 1621.

[ModernAcademic]

Oh you only left out the important bits about Tevinter humans aggressively seizing Arlathan and enslaving it's people.

 

The Blight is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. (It's likely that the Dales simply couldn't afford the risk or they figured that Montsimmard was lost and it was pointless to ) The war against the Dales was a consequence of systematic cultural, religious pressure and propaganda manipulation from Orlais and the Chantry who used the March as an excuse to put down the elves.

 

And how about those lovely alienages? Poor districts where elves are forbidden (de facto or de jure) from defending themselves, having legal decent paying jobs and are subject to human oppression and discrimination. Then any attempt to fight back against this oppression has the ELVES labeled as the bad guys and are punished with violence and death. Did I forget to mention that graduating chevaliers "test their blades" by mass murdering elves?

 

History's pretty clear here. The answer is right there.

 

1) Tevinter had NOTHING to do with the fall of Arlathan.

Play Inquisition again. 

 

2) The Blight has EVERY importance. Didn't you learn after three games that the first Blight almost wiped out ALL LIFE in Thedas?

That's what the elves from the Dales risked when they refused to keep their promise to Drakon.

 

3) The Qunari suffer the same kind of prejudice from humans in DA2. The viscount of Kirkwall allowed them to stay in a tiny portion of the harbor. And why? Because he wanted to avoid civil war, since it was impossible to keep all the Qunari under watch all the time. So he confined them to a specific location.

 

If humans were such racist, dangerous people, they wouldn't allow elves,dwarves (like Bartrand and Varric) and Qunari to live in human cities. But see if a human can live in peace in a Dalish camp or Par Vollen, without having to hear how they destroyed your people - something that, AGAIN, is a lie - or have to convert to the local religion. Who are the fanatical, dangerous people here?

 

And guess who suffers prejudice from Qunari in return? Sten wouldn't shut up about how incompetent humans are, how elves are weak, etc. The Arishok felt entitled to destroy the human society in Kirkwall and replace by a Qunari one, just because a thief stole the Tome of Koslun. They're as intolerant and ignorant about human culture as humans are of Qunari.

 

Every society has prejudice against foreigners. Which is why the Dalish feel entitled to kill humans. There are no victims. Merely a high level of intolerance that's being solved through violence. And the fact the Dalish behave like any other race in Thedas shows they are not poor, helpless victims. They are as violent and as intolerant as anyone else.

[Nixou]

But he didn't inspire the mages. That's the whole point. Hawke inspired (fearing them or not) them, to a degree, but mostly it was what happened at Cumberland and the way in which the templars absolutely tried to slaugther the Conclave that got them up in arms. Ultimately, Kirkwall was irrelevant.

 

Kirkwall was the first domino to fall: In response to Anders blowing up the Chantry, Meredith tried to slaughter the Kirkwall mages, which caused several other circles to enter open revolt or veer very close to it, which gave the hardliner templars the excuse to crack down on mages, which allowed the most radical fraternities to gain more supporters than ever before, which led to the Southern Circles to disband and the rebellion to start in earnest.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I wonder why is it that dwarves and humans get along just fine, but elves have a real problem with humans.

 

 

Humans have helped elves at every turn. After the mage leaders of Arlathan ruled for thousands of years by enslaving their own kind, the Veil was lifted and elves had nowhere to go. Humans helped them settle in the Dales and made an agreement with them: of never disturbing the elven society.

 

Then, when elves were supposed to help defend innocents against the darkspawn, they let humans die.

 

Humans then expelled them from the Dales and elves once agin became homeless wanderers. Humans gave them YET another chance, by letting them live near cities and giving them jobs.

 

Those who refused became the Dalish and have nurtured a culture of hatred toward humans. Now, some clans prey on human merchants, looting and killing their caravans. And those who stray accidentally too near a clan can be mercilessly killed (Dalish origin in DA:O).

 

Why this hatred toward humans when they helped elves so many times?

 

I'd say you seem to have a highly unorthodox definition of either "helped" or "every turn" because you seem to be skipping and glossing over quit a bit of history. 

 

How did the Imperium turning the entire elven race into slaves for the better part of a millennium help them? 

 

How did Orlais turning Halamshiral into an uninhabitable ruin and expelling them from their homeland help them?

 

How does driving them away from any human settlements they linger near and banning their religion help them?

 

Do you think Alienages are supposed to speak to the benevolence of human society? Did you actually play the City Elf Origin?

[Master Warder Z_]

I'd say you seem to have a highly unorthodox definition of either "helped" or "every turn" because you seem to be skipping and glossing over quit a bit of history. 

 

How did the Imperium turning the entire elven race into slaves for the better part of a millennium help them? 

 

How did Orlais turning Halamshiral into an uninhabitable ruin and expelling them from their homeland help them?

 

How does driving them away from any human settlements they linger near and banning their religion help them?

 

Do you think Alienages are supposed to speak to the benevolence of human society? Did you actually play the City Elf Origin?

 

In a very round about way of course.

Spoiler

 

 

It's like my dear lady Haman says to Mr. former Federation officer in reply to his question of what AXIS would do if it wasn't granted legitimate control of their former Homeland. Either way Zeon wins, either they assume their autocratic rule of Side Three once more or they launch a nuclear attack on Earth and kill the planet, and thus force mass migration to space thus negating the Federation into a outdated relic.

 

In all these interactions you have the same basic principle, in forcing the other party to accept your conditions, you are basically creating the vacuum in which actual sustainable peace can be managed, be it Zeon's threat of nuclear annihilation or the discarding of the Elven Religion. You are making the other party, group, race whatever come to your level on the bargaining table and accept the conditions, or be forced into the conditions later on at their own expense.

[ModernAcademic]

I'd say you seem to have a highly unorthodox definition of either "helped" or "every turn" because you seem to be skipping and glossing over quit a bit of history. 

 

How did the Imperium turning the entire elven race into slaves for the better part of a millennium help them? 

 

How did Orlais turning Halamshiral into an uninhabitable ruin and expelling them from their homeland help them?

 

How does driving them away from any human settlements they linger near and banning their religion help them?

 

Do you think Alienages are supposed to speak to the benevolence of human society? Did you actually play the City Elf Origin?

 

1) The Imperium didn't enslave elves. They enslaved elves, humans, dwarves and any other people they conquered.

 

They slave everyone they can, just like Arlathan did. The elven empire slaved their own kin. Elven mages enslaved other elves. 

 

The elven leaders also performed blood rites, sacrificing their slaves, as Solas tells us in the Temple of Mythal.

 

So all the horrid common practices of Tevinter were first performed by the elves of Arlathan. The sacrifices, the abuse of weaker peoples, the blood rituals, all of it.

 

That's the kind of people that spawned the Dalish. Do you still think they are poor victims with not an ounce of violence in their blood?

 

Elves have a bloody History of slavery that came long before Tevinter. And since Tevinter learned everything it knows from the ruins of Arlathan, as Abelas states, well...then it was the elves who left this marvellous inheritance to the Magisters.

 

And now their descendants are reaping the rewards of this supremacist past.

 

 

2) I might ask you, then: how did the Dalish allowing Mintsimmard to burn to the ground help anything?

 

Their expulsion from Orlais was their own doing. If they didn't want to risk losing their homeland, they shouldn't have betrayed the people who took them in in the first place.

 

3) Did the Chantry drive them away when it proposed to the kingdoms that they took the elves in after the Dales were taken back by Orlais?

Humans were kind enough not to expurge elves from the face of Orlais. If they want to blame someone for the destruction of their homeland, blame the incompetence of their leaders.

 

Even Ameridan was against the decision the elves from the Dales made of refusing to help humans. The elves were IN THE WRONG. Every Blight is likely to spread over Thedas, thus being a worldwide threat. Losing their homeland was the price they paid for turning their back not to Orlais alone, but to the world.

[In Exile]

Kirkwall was the first domino to fall: In response to Anders blowing up the Chantry, Meredith tried to slaughter the Kirkwall mages, which caused several other circles to enter open revolt or veer very close to it, which gave the hardliner templars the excuse to crack down on mages, which allowed the most radical fraternities to gain more supporters than ever before, which led to the Southern Circles to disband and the rebellion to start in earnest.

 

Let's say that's true, on a grand scale. That's exactly why the mages revile Anders. He didn't "inspire" them. He inspired the templars to perpetrate a genocide, which ultimately forced the mages to choose between being slaughtered in the Towers on their knees or in the forests on their feet. 

 

I don't think his actions had quite the echo outside of Kirkwall, but even if they did, the person who egged your oppressors on to perpetrate genocide is rarely the hero. 

[In Exile]

No analogy is perfect; however,  I'd love to know how you believe they differ.

 

Ultimately, because Judaism survived as a distinctive culture and religion. The analogy to Judaism would be something like the Dalish living in alienages. You need to have the distinctive and alien culture, in a way that you don't with the CEs, who while they have a distinctive culture, it's largely one based on a template of Andrastianism. 

[ShadowLordXII]

1) Tevinter had NOTHING to do with the fall of Arlathan.

Play Inquisition again. 

 

2) The Blight has EVERY importance. Didn't you learn after three games that the first Blight almost wiped out ALL LIFE in Thedas?

That's what the elves from the Dales risked when they refused to keep their promise to Drakon.

 

3) The Qunari suffer the same kind of prejudice from humans in DA2. The viscount of Kirkwall allowed them to stay in a tiny portion of the harbor. And why? Because he wanted to avoid civil war, since it was impossible to keep all the Qunari under watch all the time. So he confined them to a specific location.

 

If humans were such racist, dangerous people, they wouldn't allow elves,dwarves (like Bartrand and Varric) and Qunari to live in human cities. But see if a human can live in peace in a Dalish camp or Par Vollen, without having to hear how they destroyed your people - something that, AGAIN, is a lie - or have to convert to the local religion. Who are the fanatical, dangerous people here?

 

And guess who suffers prejudice from Qunari in return? Sten wouldn't shut up about how incompetent humans are, how elves are weak, etc. The Arishok felt entitled to destroy the human society in Kirkwall and replace by a Qunari one, just because a thief stole the Tome of Koslun. They're as intolerant and ignorant about human culture as humans are of Qunari.

 

Every society has prejudice against foreigners. Which is why the Dalish feel entitled to kill humans. There are no victims. Merely a high level of intolerance that's being solved through violence. And the fact the Dalish behave like any other race in Thedas shows they are not poor, helpless victims. They are as violent and as intolerant as anyone else.

 

1. Wrong. Tevinter destroyed Arlathan and enslaved the elves. Inquisition didn't change that story, merely expanded on it. The existence of a civil war does not excuse the fact that Tevinter destroyed the elven nation and then destroyed the culture of it's people before enslaving them.

 

2. Of course. However, I'm merely pointing out that this doesn't excuse having the Dales get destroyed. Do we know why the elves didn't help? It's perfectly valid for an isolationist nation to choose not to sacrifice its own people for a city that may already be lost. How do we not know that the Dales weren't also attacked and were merely focused on protecting themselves? A valid if harsh response. Keep in mind also that Orlais is far from the most reliable source of unbiased information.

 

3. Strawman/False Equivalency. We're talking about human-elf relations, not the qunari. Stay on topic.

 

Not all dalish shoot humans on sight and even the ones who do are defending themselves. The Dalish are pariahs forced on the run in the face of a majority power that destroyed their homeland and wants to strip them of their culture and identity to be made into 2nd class citizens. Of course they're going to be hostile, it's the only way that they can survive in the face of multiple powers united by a religion that sees their very existence as a challenge.

 

Stay an apologist if you want, but get the facts straight. There's plenty of reason to scrutinize past and present treatment of elves by human societies. It doesn't matter whether elves aren't perfect either. This doesn't absolve anyone of responsibility for their actions and the lion's share falls upon humans, my friend.

[ModernAcademic]

1. Wrong. Tevinter destroyed Arlathan and enslaved the elves. Inquisition didn't change that story, merely expanded on it. The existence of a civil war does not excuse the fact that Tevinter destroyed the elven nation and then destroyed the culture of it's people before enslaving them.

 

2. Of course. However, I'm merely pointing out that this doesn't excuse having the Dales get destroyed. Do we know why the elves didn't help? It's perfectly valid for an isolationist nation to choose not to sacrifice its own people for a city that may already be lost. How do we not know that the Dales weren't also attacked and were merely focused on protecting themselves? A valid if harsh response. Keep in mind also that Orlais is far from the most reliable source of unbiased information.

 

3. Strawman/False Equivalency. We're talking about human-elf relations, not the qunari. Stay on topic.

 

Not all dalish shoot humans on sight and even the ones who do are defending themselves. The Dalish are pariahs forced on the run in the face of a majority power that destroyed their homeland and wants to strip them of their culture and identity to be made into 2nd class citizens. Of course they're going to be hostile, it's the only way that they can survive in the face of multiple powers united by a religion that sees their very existence as a challenge.

 

Stay an apologist if you want, but get the facts straight. There's plenty of reason to scrutinize past and present treatment of elves by human societies. It doesn't matter whether elves aren't perfect either. This doesn't absolve anyone of responsibility for their actions and the lion's share falls upon humans, my friend.

 

1) Wrong again. Arlathan was already destroyed when Tevinter was still barely founded. There was no war of conquest. The elves destroyed their own civilization.

In Abelas' words, it was the war of carrion feasting upon a corpse. The corpse being the ruins of Arlathan after a great war amongst the elves erupted, where Mythal was murdered and some time later, the Veil was created.

 

Like I said, go and play Inquisition.

 

2) The Dales were not destroyed. Orlais reclaimed the territory that was generously granted to the elves on the condition they helped during a Blight. The territory remained part of the Empire. The elves were therefore solely legal occupants. They didn't own the land.

The elves broke their oath. Therefore, the Empire considered the agreement cancelled, thus proceeding to take the territory back from the elves. 

No doubt they arrogantly thought they owed humans nothing, even after their blatant TREACHERY as they watched Montsimmard burn and didn't want to leave. 

 

Like I said, they paid the price for their incompetent leadership. How can a people afford to be selfish during a Blight? 

 

If I were Orlais, I wouldn't even have let them stay in Alienages. Just send those treacherous bastards as far away as possible. They dislike humans, even after they were offered a place to rebuild after their civilization fell? So why help them at all?

 

Let someone else deal with them. See if the elves have better luck with the Qunari, who are not famous for taking bulls*** from other peoples.

 

3) I'm talking about what happens to marginalised groups within a society and their relationship with said society. Therefore, the example of Qunari in Kirkwall is a perfect example. 

It illustrates a pattern that happens ALL OVER THE PLACE, BE IT FICTION OR NON FICTION, because antagonising sentiments naturally emerge between different cultures that happen to be forced upon each other, with the prevalent one imposing the terms of the relationship. 

 

There's even a NAME for it in academic circles: the clash of civilizations, a theory proposed by the political scientist Samuel Huntington.

 

From the level of hostility and violence displayed by the Dalish against humans, we can safely assume they're intolerant and prone to racism. Qunari are as equally intolerant, but they value life above all else. So instead of stupidly shooting people or leaving them to die, they try and convert them to the Qun.

 

The Qunari are actually more considerate of other lives than the Dalish, who look for excuses to kill other people ([Origins] the vengeful wife, [DA2] the daughter who wanted to kill an uncursed werewolf).

 

Sorry, elves were not a great people. They were the Tevinter of Thedas's Antiquity. And from the way they continue being prone to hate, supremacy (elves had a great empire, were immortal, blah, blah blah) and racism, their descendants are not a vast improvements over their rotten blood mage, slaver ancestors.

 

I don't even know why Solas bothers with them at all.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

1. Elves were still slaves of the Imperium for 800 years. How do you think that happened? Tevinter would still have needed to enslave elves that existed. And World of Thedas says that until Andraste's Exalted March, the slave class in the Imperium was overwhelmingly elven.

 

2. That is incorrect. The Dales existed before Orlais did. 

[ShadowLordXII]

1) Wrong again. Arlathan was already destroyed when Tevinter was still barely founded. There was no war of conquest. The elves destroyed their own civilization.

In Abelas' words, it was the war of carrion feasting upon a corpse. The corpse being the ruins of Arlathan after a great war amongst the elves erupted, where Mythal was murdered and some time later, the Veil was created.

 

Like I said, go and play Inquisition.

 

2) The Dales were not destroyed. Orlais reclaimed the territory that was generously granted to the elves on the condition they helped during a Blight. The territory remained part of the Empire. The elves were therefore solely legal occupants. They didn't own the land.

The elves broke their oath. Therefore, the Empire considered the agreement cancelled, thus proceeding to take the territory back from the elves. 

No doubt they arrogantly thought they owed humans nothing, even after their blatant TREACHERY as they watched Montsimmard burn and didn't want to leave. 

 

Like I said, they paid the price for their incompetent leadership. How can a people afford to be selfish during a Blight? 

 

If I were Orlais, I wouldn't even have let them stay in Alienages. Just send those treacherous bastards as far away as possible. They dislike humans, even after they were offered a place to rebuild after their civilization fell? So why help them at all?

 

Let someone else deal with them. See if the elves have better luck with the Qunari, who are not famous for taking bulls*** from other peoples.

 

3) I'm talking about what happens to marginalised groups within a society and their relationship with said society. Therefore, the example of Qunari in Kirkwall is a perfect example. 

It illustrates a pattern that happens ALL OVER THE PLACE, BE IT FICTION OR NON FICTION, because antagonising sentiments naturally emerge between different cultures that happen to be forced upon each other, with the prevalent one imposing the terms of the relationship. 

 

There's even a NAME for it in academic circles: the clash of civilizations, a theory proposed by the political scientist Samuel Huntington.

 

From the level of hostility and violence displayed by the Dalish against humans, we can safely assume they're intolerant and prone to racism. Qunari are as equally intolerant, but they value life above all else. So instead of stupidly shooting people or leaving them to die, they try and convert them to the Qun.

 

The Qunari are actually more considerate of other lives than the Dalish, who look for excuses to kill other people ([Origins] the vengeful wife, [DA2] the daughter who wanted to kill an uncursed werewolf).

 

Sorry, elves were not a great people. They were the Tevinter of Thedas's Antiquity. And from the way they continue being prone to hate, supremacy (elves had a great empire, were immortal, blah, blah blah) and racism, their descendants are not a vast improvements over their rotten blood mage, slaver ancestors.

 

I don't even know why Solas bothers with them at all.

 

1. Tevinter's role has not been absolved. Even Abelas' words do not say that Tevinter did not destroy Arlathan and enslave it's people. Stop cherry picking. You're not going anywhere on this point since nothing is backing you.

 

2. Where is it said in-game that helping against the blight was a condition for the elves to keep the Dales? The games have been consistent about how the elves were given the Dales as a gift for helping Andraste. It's in bad taste to take back a gift without just cause and that's exactly what happened. The elves NEVER made any oath to aid the Orlesians or any humans. At the very least, none of this is ever mentioned in the games themselves.

 

The Dales were already beaten in the Exalted March, what was the purpose of taking away the Dales sovereignty and screwing over it's survivors so badly? That's an even worst betrayal since that land was given to the elves for their aid to Andraste. Is this an action that Andraste would approve? Apparently not since all canticles regarding the elves helping her were considered heresy from this point on. I wonder why?

 

3. Yet again changing the subject. You asked why there was so much hatred against humans and I responded with major historical marks where humans gave elves a very rough deal. A deal which persists to the present day and that's before including present day discrimination, oppression and so on. Also explain how the clash of civilizations theory shows that humans don't deserve any hatred or criticism for their actions or treatment. 

 

The Dalish are not universally intolerant. They are doing what they must to maintain their culture from those who'd destroy it. Harsh at times, yes. But considering that they've got far less blood on their hands than the Chantry, I'm willing to give them a break. The Dalish want to be left alone to practice their beliefs and culture in peace. Even if that means fighting for their right to live as they choose.

 

And again. Some Dalish are neutral towards humans while others have open, yet cautious relations with human settlements. So on a whole, it appears as though the Dalish just want to live in peace practicing their own culture rather than that of humans.

 

Don't believe me? Replay the games and check your facts.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

1) The Imperium didn't enslave elves. They enslaved elves, humans, dwarves and any other people they conquered.

 

They slave everyone they can, just like Arlathan did. The elven empire slaved their own kin. Elven mages enslaved other elves. 

 

The elven leaders also performed blood rites, sacrificing their slaves, as Solas tells us in the Temple of Mythal.

 

So all the horrid common practices of Tevinter were first performed by the elves of Arlathan. The sacrifices, the abuse of weaker peoples, the blood rituals, all of it.

 

That's the kind of people that spawned the Dalish. Do you still think they are poor victims with not an ounce of violence in their blood?

 

Elves have a bloody History of slavery that came long before Tevinter. And since Tevinter learned everything it knows from the ruins of Arlathan, as Abelas states, well...then it was the elves who left this marvellous inheritance to the Magisters.

 

And now their descendants are reaping the rewards of this supremacist past.

 

 

2) I might ask you, then: how did the Dalish allowing Mintsimmard to burn to the ground help anything?

 

Their expulsion from Orlais was their own doing. If they didn't want to risk losing their homeland, they shouldn't have betrayed the people who took them in in the first place.

 

3) Did the Chantry drive them away when it proposed to the kingdoms that they took the elves in after the Dales were taken back by Orlais?

Humans were kind enough not to expurge elves from the face of Orlais. If they want to blame someone for the destruction of their homeland, blame the incompetence of their leaders.

 

Even Ameridan was against the decision the elves from the Dales made of refusing to help humans. The elves were IN THE WRONG. Every Blight is likely to spread over Thedas, thus being a worldwide threat. Losing their homeland was the price they paid for turning their back not to Orlais alone, but to the world.

 

1. I'm also pretty sure Solas does not, in fact, mention any blood sacrifices. Also did anybody actually say that elves don't have an ounce of violence in their blood? Because you act like you are arguing against someone who did.

 

2. You're changing the subject completely. Whether or not The Dales abandoned Montsimmard against darkspawn is 100% irrelevant to the question of whether "Humans helped elves at every turn."

 

But since you brought it up: The Dales did let Montsimmard be sacked by darkspawn. Also, in that same Blight the Tevinter Imperium abandoned the Anderfels to the ravages of the darkspawn (which was worse because that was part of their own territory at the time). In the Fourth Blight, the Tevinter Imperium also refused to send any aid to any other nation. And Orlais did not send anything more than token help. So leaving others to die at the hands of darkspawn is not something only elves are guilty of. 

 

The elves didn't burn their own city to the ground or scatter their own people to the four corners of Thedas. That means they human forces did it. Nobody forced them to do it. The main person to blame for an act such as the destruction of the Dales were the people that directly perpetrated it. The Dales didn't belong to Orlais. It was granted to them by Andraste and Maferath long before the Orlesian Empire was ever unified. It wasn't a loan from Drakon that was intended to be rescinded at any time.

 

3. Again, do you actually see the Alienages as kindness? Elves live their as brutalized second class citizens who were forbidden to practice their own religion and culture. 

[Master Warder Z_]

3. Again, do you actually see the Alienages as kindness?

I do!