77 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

^I think you have to boil it down to Gaider and Weekes thinking it sounded hot and writing it down as they giggled like 14 year old fan fiction writers.

[midnight tea]

There is a difference between losing yourself in the moment as any person can do and losing control of your mind.   Normally a mage has to consciously want to produce magic and in so doing they draw on mana and also become connected with the Fade.   Because they are in conscious control, they are not in danger from the spirits that hover there.  Spirits are particularly attracted to mage because they can sense the magical signature attached to them, which is why they are in greater danger than non-mages of possession.   When a mage is under extreme duress, they connect with the Fade sub-consciously, may manifest magic without meaning to and are more vulnerable to possession.   

 

Only Dorian was NOT under extreme duress, nor apparently he was in any danger of possession, given that Iron Bull (a person terrified of demons) considers that event as endearing and harmless, nor we ever hear Dorian complain about it, or admit that he was ever losing control over himself in any situation.

 

I get that analyzing relations between character is interesting and may be important - but there's analyzing and then there's making mountains out of molehills.

 

I've played a lot of mages and never has it been suggested before that if we became extremely sexually aroused we might suddenly start firing off spells without meaning to. 

 

It WAS suggested. In Inquisition - by Bull and indirectly by Solas. "Playing many mages" means little if you don't take into consideration such details.

 

Also - you yourself mention that magic can become volatile around mages when they're emotional; nothing in the game suggests however that this is just supposed to happen only when the mage is experiencing negative emotions, or that this is clearly always bad or will end up with possession. The mages apparently have to be much more careful with their emotions and emotional outbursts, but they don't have to go overboard with self-control, otherwise they'd all be forced to live in celibacy.

 

 

Anyway - I get it. I get why some people who regularly romance Dorian or Bull may want to try to downplay their romance, since in a sense, it almost seems more 'canonical' than Inky and Dorian or Bull. So long as we don't romance them and keep them in a party long enough they end up hooking up together, which isn't the case in every individual play-through with different Inquisitors. It almost makes it look like Bull and Dorian are destined to be together, much more than Inky and those two are, hence some may be inclined to downplay their potential affections. It's not really a sentiment I share, since I like it that characters have a life and preferences and people they're attracted to outside of my own characters, but I think I understand it.

 

But going as far as claiming that BullxDorian is abusive? Yeah, well, no. AFAIK Bull's romance is generally considered pretty stellar as far as romances go (despite it being BDSMy) and I fail to see how Iron Bull would suddenly go OOC if he hooks up with Dorian.

It's not that Bioware doesn't blunder from time to time, but they're way more careful than just implement an idea "because they get off on that"   Bull and Dorian have their problems between themselves to work out and they're both stumbling in the dark when it comes to dealing with their attraction to one another, since neither of them was ever really in a committed relationship (as we find it out in personal conversations and cutscenes with them. The difference between Inky's romance is that due to gameplay mechanics the Inquisitor appears to be decidedly the driving force behind the relationship and they manage to coax either Bull or Dorian out of their shells much more smoothly than these two do with one another) , but they work it out, and even in the main game Dorian admits that he's happy with Bull, while Bull seems genuinely touched when he hears Dorian admit it.

 

That's probably as much as I have to say in that regard.

[Nimlowyn]

 

 

It WAS suggested. In Inquisition - by Bull and indirectly by Solas. "Playing many mages" means little if you don't take into consideration such details.

 

 

I've wondered about this, but I never heard had this come up in banter. Could you tell me when this comes up, I'd love to hear it for myself. 

[SentinelMacDeath]

The thing about Bull that started bothering me way after I finished the games a couple of times is that he is just too good of a liar. He plays mind games, he knows how to read people and tell them exactly what they need to hear. How do you trust someone like that ever? 

 

I stopped hooking them up entirely ... the more I think about Bull and his life and job the more I hate the relationship he could have with Dorian. As far as abusive goes, I think it at least borders on it. Mental abuse peppered with a light case of Alexithymia on Dorian's end. Especially if Bull stays loyal to the Qun. 

 

Personally it makes me very uncomfortable but I do appreciate the nod to the BDSM lifestyle. 

 

The other thing that bothered me with Bull was that he only ever talks about hooking up with the ladies of Skyhold and never with any of the guys, why's that? 

 

To say something on topic: 
 

I never thought about Dorian/Solas I have to think about that more ....

I do like Cullen/Dorian tho

[midnight tea]

I've wondered about this, but I never heard had this come up in banter. Could you tell me when this comes up, I'd love to hear it for myself. 

 

The Bull's comment? You're going to have to make Dorian and Bull hook up during your travels - when you hear them talking about spending the night together, visit them in Skyhold; there will be an option unlocked on both of them to talk about them being together and this is when IB makes a comment about Dorian setting curtains on fire, lol.

[SentinelMacDeath]

I've wondered about this, but I never heard had this come up in banter. Could you tell me when this comes up, I'd love to hear it for myself. 

 

Bull says something along the lines of "Dorian got so excited one time that he set the curtains on fire" which, if you believe that their relationship is not as peachy as it could be, it could also be a sign of extreme duress and not just the throes of passion. Never heard Solas talking about it though. 

[midnight tea]

The thing about Bull that started bothering me way after I finished the games a couple of times is that he is just too good of a liar. He plays mind games, he knows how to read people and tell them exactly what they need to hear. How do you trust someone like that ever?

 

As it happens, most of my Inquisitors do - because before we ever fully trust him Bull literally trusts us with his soul during his personal mission and acts accordingly to how we've dealt with his pretty obvious identity crisis. Bull is a really good agent, but he's not perfect - pretty much because he doesn't really want to. He's been struggling with his role long before he was sent South and we can see that he's genuinely annoyed when Gatt points out that "Hissrad" translates to "liar". It bothers him on a personal level - a fact confirmed when (if we side with Chargers) Inquisitor asks Gatt to stop calling Bull Hissrad and Bull approves.

[midnight tea]

Bull says something along the lines of "Dorian got so excited one time that he set the curtains on fire" which, if you believe that their relationship is not as peachy as it could be, it could also be a sign of extreme duress and not just the throes of passion. Never heard Solas talking about it though. 

 

If Dorian was under extreme duress, we'd pretty much hear about it from himself. As it happens, we never hear about Dorian complaining about time with Bull, in fact pretty much every comment he does after they hook up is that they enjoy time spent together.

 

Also, read my earlier comment if you want context. Solas' mage flirt is about how fascinating it'd be to see Lavellan 'indomitable focus' be dominated, which decidedly can't mean "hey, I'd like to see you being possessed by a demon and then burn everyone!".

[SentinelMacDeath]

If Dorian was under extreme duress, we'd pretty much hear about it. But we never hear about Dorian complaining about getting frisky with Bull, in fact pretty much every comment he does after they hook up together is that they enjoy time spent together.

 

Also, read my earlier comment if you want context. Solas' mage flirt is about how fascinating it'd be to see Lavellan 'indomitable focus' be dominated, which decidedly can't mean "hey, I'd like to see you being possessed by a demon and then burn everyone!".

 

it's actually just Bull talking about their time together and Dorian being awkward about it. Only the DLC brings us the Dorian giggle but also the moment when Bull can stab him in the back.

 

You gotta probe to get him to tell the Inquisitor about their relationship. 

 

As for Bull, how can I be sure that it bothers him on a personal level? He lies for a living, he could just be playing my Inquisitor to form a even deeper emotional attachment to him. 

[midnight tea]

it's actually just Bull talking about their time together and Dorian being awkward about it. Only the DLC brings us the Dorian giggle but also the moment when Bull can stab him in the back 

 

He tells us (when we ask him in Skyhold) that more than one-night stand happened with Bull, which means that Dorian found himself coming back to Bull's bed. Pretty sure it means that he enjoyed himself.

 

Then there's an admission in banter that he's happy - and in Trespasser, if Bull's Tal-Vashoth, Dorian "complains" about affections from Bull and "I want to talk about my feelings, Dorian".

 

Also - the last comment between Tal-Vashoth Bull and Dorian in Trespasser is actually really sweet. "Oh, Amatus <3"...

[Patchwork]

Only Dorian was NOT under extreme duress, nor apparently he was in any danger of possession, given that Iron Bull (a person terrified of demons) considers that event as endearing and harmless, nor we ever hear Dorian complain about it, or admit that he was ever losing control over himself in any situation.

 

I get that analyzing relations between character is interesting and may be important - but there's analyzing and then there's making mountains out of molehills.

 

 

It WAS suggested. In Inquisition - by Bull and indirectly by Solas. "Playing many mages" means little if you don't take into consideration such details.

 

Also - you yourself mention that magic can become volatile around mages when they're emotional; nothing in the game suggests however that this is just supposed to happen only when the mage is experiencing negative emotions, or that this is clearly always bad or will end up with possession. The mages apparently have to be much more careful with their emotions and emotional outbursts, but they don't have to go overboard with self-control, otherwise they'd all be forced to live in celibacy.

 

 

Anyway - I get it. I get why some people who regularly romance Dorian or Bull may want to try to downplay their romance, since in a sense, it almost seems more 'canonical' than Inky and Dorian or Bull. So long as we don't romance them and keep them in a party long enough they end up hooking up together, which isn't the case in every individual play-through with different Inquisitors. It almost makes it look like Bull and Dorian are destined to be together, much more than Inky and those two are, hence some may be inclined to downplay their potential affections. It's not really a sentiment I share, since I like it that characters have a life and preferences and people they're attracted to outside of my own characters, but I think I understand it.

 

But going as far as claiming that BullxDorian is abusive? Yeah, well, no. AFAIK Bull's romance is generally considered pretty stellar as far as romances go (despite it being BDSMy) and I fail to see how Iron Bull would suddenly go OOC if he hooks up with Dorian.

It's not that Bioware doesn't blunder from time to time, but they're way more careful than just implement an idea "because they get off on that"   Bull and Dorian have their problems between themselves to work out and they're both stumbling in the dark when it comes to dealing with their attraction to one another, since neither of them was ever really in a committed relationship (as we find it out in personal conversations and cutscenes with them. The difference between Inky's romance is that due to gameplay mechanics the Inquisitor appears to be decidedly the driving force behind the relationship and they manage to coax either Bull or Dorian out of their shells much more smoothly than these two do with one another) , but they work it out, and even in the main game Dorian admits that he's happy with Bull, while Bull seems genuinely touched when he hears Dorian admit it.

 

That's probably as much as I have to say in that regard.

 

Bull and Dorian are destined to be with each other as much as Fenris and Isabela are, so not at all really. 

 

I freely admit that as a character Iron Bull doesn't appeal to me, in fact only on the qun path do I find him mildly interesting. Although it is irritating that Trespasser goes out of its way trying to prove they're a wonderful couple, I don't care. I care that propping them up means the quizzy romances with those characters gets little attention. Not that I'd ever romance Bull, the 'I know what you want more than you do' thing puts me right off that one, but BW were trying so hard to correct fans opinions that it makes me feel like digging my heels in and refuse on principle. Sera is a victim of this too.  

[SentinelMacDeath]

Coming back to the person that abuses you is pretty common, so just them hooking up more than once means literally nothing. I used to love Bull so I get why people like him but since I've been victim of mental abuse I tend to pick up on signs easier and hence why it makes me very uncomfortable now. BW going nuts with their Bull/Dorian ship does nothing to help the situation. 

[In Exile]

I'm not really pleased with how Bull behaves around Dorian. In my view, some of the things he says and the way he talks, it's suggestive of abusive. But that may be because I've had a friend in a situation that outwardly looked like theirs, and was abusive. 

 

But then Bull is so the opposite of my type that I also probably can't understand anyone being into him.

[Hazegurl]

The thing about Bull that started bothering me way after I finished the games a couple of times is that he is just too good of a liar. He plays mind games, he knows how to read people and tell them exactly what they need to hear. How do you trust someone like that ever? 

This is my biggest issue with Bull and why I think the Tal Voshoth route is more of a lame power fantasy than anything that makes sense.  Bull goes from deeply devoted to the Qun with some minor hiccups (or so we are lead to believe) to full blown loyal member of the Inquisition who suddenly wishes to tell the IQ the full truth with no lies about anything, and he's willing to trade his entire country, and all the people he has shown to be passionately concerned about for a handful of soldiers.  And his hook up with Dorian is 100% legit and all about the love and not at all about the fact that Dorian is a Magister's son who just so happens to have self esteem issues, rebellious sexual past,  and just wants a guy willing to spend more than one night with him.  aka, the perfect mark.

 

truth be told, TV Bull is in the best position the Qun could ever hope for by the end of Trespasser. He stays with the Inquisition, gains notoriety, has the full trust of the IQ who believes he/she has changed his life forever with the Chargers, If the IQ is romanced, even better. If Dorian is romanced, he has a back door into Tevinter with the ambassador eating out the palm of his hands. 

 

And I'm supposed to believe that the Qun would give all that up for a boat and a failed agent?

[SentinelMacDeath]

This is my biggest issue with Bull and why I think the Tal Voshoth route is more of a lame power fantasy than anything that makes sense.  Bull goes from deeply devoted to the Qun with some minor hiccups (or so we are lead to believe) to full blown loyal member of the Inquisition who suddenly wishes to tell the IQ the full truth with no lies about anything, and he's willing to trade his entire country, and all the people he has shown to be passionately concerned about for a handful of soldiers.  And his hook up with Dorian is 100% legit and all about the love and not at all about the fact that Dorian is a Magister's son who just so happens to have self esteem issues, rebellious sexual past,  and just wants a guy willing to spend more than one night with him.  aka, the perfect mark.

 

truth be told, TV Bull is in the best position the Qun could ever hope for by the end of Trespasser. He stays with the Inquisition, gains notoriety, has the full trust of the IQ who believes he/she has changed his life forever with the Chargers, If the IQ is romanced, even better. If Dorian is romanced, he has a back door into Tevinter with the ambassador eating out the palm of his hands. 

 

And I'm supposed to believe that the Qun would give all that up for a boat and a failed agent?

^ YES! This, 10000 times this. Summed up perfectly

[midnight tea]

Coming back to the person that abuses you is pretty common, so just them hooking up more than once means literally nothing. I used to love Bull so I get why people like him but since I've been victim of mental abuse I tend to pick up on signs easier and hence why it makes me very uncomfortable now. BW going nuts with their Bull/Dorian ship does nothing to help the situation. 

 

Is the Inquisitor coming back because they like abuse then? Or are they simply in the BDSM kink Bull offers and it has nothing to do with abuse? The whole "Iron Bull abuses Dorian" has very little leg to stand on, especially that we have an insight of how exactly Bull treats a person they love thanks to the romance with Inquisitor - so, I repeat myself here, I see no reason why Bull would go OOC with Dorian, or why Dorian would be OOC and actually tolerate open abuse. Dorian is not the kind of person that lets anyone spit into his porridge - he has a relatively high threshold for mockery or gossip, but he didn't tolerate how his father treated him and how his homeland treated him so he leftt (and if Inquisitor abuses him he leaves as well) and I see no reason why he would tolerate Bull do it to him, especially that before Inquisition they were complete strangers to one another.

 

 That Dorian and Bull quip with one another at the very start of their relationship is merely indicative of them breaking ice between ope another and finding out that they may actually be into each other. It is well-explained throughout dialogues and cutscenes why they'd have reservations or bicker with themselves before they actually figured out that they like another. That's it. 

[midnight tea]

This is my biggest issue with Bull and why I think the Tal Voshoth route is more of a lame power fantasy than anything that makes sense.  Bull goes from deeply devoted to the Qun with some minor hiccups (or so we are lead to believe) to full blown loyal member of the Inquisition who suddenly wishes to tell the IQ the full truth with no lies about anything

 

What? ... I'm sorry, but did you actually pay attention to the game?

 

Or to banters like that?

 

Iron Bull: Sorry about your Seekers. It's tough when the ones who watch over abuse that authority.

Cassandra: Yes it is.

Iron Bull: Always happens though. Nobody can handle secrets all day long without it getting into them.

Cassandra: How do the Ben-Hassraths deal with such problem?

Iron Bull: If the problem's small they turn a blind eye. Like I said, it happens.

Cassandra: And if it is too large to ignore?

Iron Bull: How do you think I ended up here?

 

The whole "IB is a deeply devoted Qunari" is such a wrong read of a character I am actually pretty shocked it ever surfaced. The main reason why IB still follows the Qun when we meet him is because he is deeply afraid of becoming a mad, mindless beast he thinks Tal-Vashoth are.

 

He was never a devoted Qunari, like Sten - which is the exact reason why his mission is designed the way it is, or why he turns to Inquisition when he becomes Tal-Vashoth. Either the Qun or Inquisition/Chargers/friends become the shield from his worst fear, hence he either becomes a loyal friend and follower of Inky or gives himself entirely to the Qun.

[-leadintea-]

The other thing that bothered me with Bull was that he only ever talks about hooking up with the ladies of Skyhold and never with any of the guys, why's that?

 

Yeah, this bothered me as well. Even though I think IB is one of the only 2 well designed bi characters in a Bioware game, it does feel very iffy that the only time he's seen or mentioned hooking up with a guy is with the token gay guy of the group.

[SentinelMacDeath]

 

What? ... I'm sorry, but did you actually pay attention to the game?

 

Or to banters like that?

 

Iron Bull: Sorry about your Seekers. It's tough when the ones who watch over abuse that authority.

Cassandra: Yes it is.

Iron Bull: Always happens though. Nobody can handle secrets all day long without it getting into them.

Cassandra: How do the Ben-Hassraths deal with such problem?

Iron Bull: If the problem's small they turn a blind eye. Like I said, it happens.

Cassandra: And if it is too large to ignore?

Iron Bull: How do you think I ended up here?

 

The whole "IB is a deeply devoted Qunari" is such a wrong read of a character I am actually pretty shocked it ever surfaced. The main reason why IB still follows the Qun when we meet him is because he is deeply afraid of becoming a mad, mindless beast he thinks Tal-Vashoth are.

 

He was never a devoted Qunari, like Sten - which is the exact reason why his mission is designed the way it is, or why he turns to Inquisition when he becomes Tal-Vashoth. Either the Qun or Inquisition/Chargers/friends become the shield from his worst fear, hence he either becomes a loyal friend and follower of Inky or gives himself entirely to the Qun.

 

 

he's devoted enough to turn on you and your cause in a blink of an eye even if he's in a serious relationship with the Inquisitor or Dorian. 

 

The Inquisitor and Dorian are not the same people, unless you roleplay it that way they do not share the same emotional baggage and/or history. The thing with emotional abuse is that it's sneaky. It's dangerous. Even more so with a person that does know how to play the mind game. 

[Ryzaki]

he's devoted enough to turn on you and your cause in a blink of an eye even if he's in a serious relationship with the Inquisitor or Dorian. 

 

The Inquisitor and Dorian are not the same people, unless you roleplay it that way they do not share the same emotional baggage and/or history. The thing with emotional abuse is that it's sneaky. It's dangerous. Even more so with a person that does know how to play the mind game. 

 

Chargers were far more important to him than Inky or Dorian. If the Chargers can die for the Qun so can those two. And if you simply ignore Bull's quest then yes he puts the Qun above them but that's pretty much a default "I don't care about you" option when you ignore the quest so I'm not sure what's with the "omg" response. Unlike other betrayer characters he doesn't claim to be on your side without reservation. he told you exactly why he was there.

[SentinelMacDeath]

but he turns on you even if you don't do his personal quest and the Chargers remain alive 

[Ryzaki]

but he turns on you even if you don't do his personal quest and the Chargers remain alive 

 

And thus it's a default "I don't care about you" option. If you don't care about him why should he give a damn about you? You cannot complete his friendship without doing that quest.

 

As for Dorian yes other things come before romance. Anders had his mage cause, and Bull has the Qun. Least you can drag Bull out of the Qun.

 

Bull has to be forced to leave the Qun because his fear of madness keeping him chained to it. Without that forced push yes he's gonna stay with what he's known all his life and feels secure with. He flat out told you who he was working for to begin with being shocked that he put his duty over romance in that scenario cause he never got a lifeline to do otherwise? SMH.

[Gervaise]

I have to admit that whilst I like to think that by saving the Chargers I do also save Bull from his slavery to the Qun, the thought had crossed my mind that to be honest there was no guarantee that he had totally split with them; only his word for it.

 

So the cynical view, but probably not the real one, because it is pretty evident the writers didn't want it seen that way, is this:

 

Bull allows you to make the decision over the Chargers because his task was to infiltrate and gain the confidence of the organisation.   Him making the decision would reveal the way his sentiments lay, so he gives notional control and loyalty to the Inquisition.  Actually this is also how it would operate with a mercenary company.   You are paying them to work for you and thus ultimately you decide how they should be used.

 

If you sacrifice the Chargers then basically you have taken away his cover story that he was operating under and the people for whom I think he did have some genuine affection, Krem at least.   It is no good him pretending to be loyal to the Inquisition over the Qun because it is obvious he is still their agent.   So when the crunch time comes, he betrays you because he really has no alternative and if he can get rid of you the mission might still be able to be salvaged.

 

If you save the Chargers then on the face of it the Qun have finished with him.   Gaatt makes a big show of saying the Qun no longer want to work with you and Bull is now Tal-Vasthoth.   In fact Gaatt may even genuinely believe this because his superiors haven't let him in on the secret that no matter what happened Bull was still considered a loyal agent.   The mission was a test of the Inquisitor and the Inquisition, not Bull.    Bull even admits that the assassins they sent to deal with him were pathetic and really only a token display, plus of course he knew to dose himself up on the antidote to prevent any real damage.   So now he is the perfect agent because everyone believes he has left the Qun and they have abandoned him.   Then in Trespasser he continues to be loyal to the Inquisition because actually the mission has pretty much failed, as the Viddasala admits, so it is essential that he maintains his cover.    As Solas anticipates, and in fact was a pretty obvious assumption, having failed to get a quick victory in the south, the Qunari resume active hostilities on the mainland of Tevinter.   First port of call, Qarinus, as it has so often been in the past because of its strategic position.   And guess who was brought up in and remains an important person in Qarinus, Dorian, plus his ally, Maevaris.  Remember at the beginning of Trespasser, no matter whether Bull is in Qun or not, Dorian actually says that Bull has been pressuring him into letting him actually join him in Tevinter and "can not understand why that is impossible".   May be Dorian is being a bit clever here because he is adamant that it is not possible even if Bull is Tal-Vashoth.   That doesn't mean that he isn't still a security risk.   Ditto if he is in a relationship with the Inquisitor because he can still pick up useful information, particularly as the Inquisitor is still in touch with Dorian via the message crystal.

 

That is why you can be highly suspicious of anything between Bull and Dorian or Bull and the Inquisitor.   Remember Freddie once described Bull as the Qunari James Bond.  JB has occasionally seemed to have gone rogue but in fact has never betrayed his country.   Actually it would have made it far more interesting if this had been Bull's motives and he was that much a clever spy, but I'll admit that I don't believe the writers intended it to be seen that way at all and the Tal-Vashoth Bull can be accepted at face value.

[Hazegurl]

@Ryzaki, It's hard to believe the story that Bull betrays you in Trespasser over losing the Chargers when it's shown that this is not the case.  It's also difficult to believe that not doing his quest is some sort of personal affront to him.  When the quest is devalued by Bull himself.  He mentions that the Dreadnoughts weren't even important and that the Qunari don't do alliances.  So why would he hold a grudge against the IQ over a matter he easily dismisses as not important overall?  Sure he claims that them wanting an alliance is a big deal, but I don't buy that he believes they are being honest when he mentions their tenacity and how they don't give up.

 

So Bull, a guy who is generally laid back, is angry because the IQ refuses to do a mission over a worthless dreadnought and a fake alliance? I know that this is pretty much how Weekes and Gaider intended it to be, but it feels like such a childish and weak excuse. IMO, it makes more sense for Bull to betray the IQ who doesn't do his quest because the Qun knows the IQ doesn't want to deal with them, period.  That means Bull too.  For all they know the IQ could have gotten some inside intel on Bull, and they have no idea where the IQ stands overall.  Bull's use as an agent is pretty much worthless, he doesn't have the IQ's loyalty and the Qun doesn't have their fake alliance. Better for Bull to try to assassinate the IQ or die. Like Bull says, it's nothing personal.

 

@ Gervaise, Everything you wrote is exactly what I was thinking during my first play through of Trespasser which had TV Bull in it.  When I sat back and thought about Bull's position post Tresspasser and the loses the Qun faced for this to happen, there was no way I could buy that Bull was truly loyal to the IQ, and the Inquisition just got played big time.  Whether you choose to save the Chargers or not, Bull is placed in a very good position, heck even better if you save them and let the dreadnought sink.  The one thing that was just odd to me, is how a confident guy like Bull, the same guy who tells other people what they need, suddenly turns to the IQ about the Chargers.  It's almost as though it's was the IQ's personal quest and not Bull's. Which is believable because the Qun wins no matter what. It's all about knowing where the IQ stands, not Bull.

 

Save the Ship, The IQ thinks the Qun is on his side, they give some token help in the wartable, and while Bull may not have the IQ's trust completely as a known loyal agent of the Qun, he's able to remain on the inside for a bit longer.  In trespasser, he gives up his life because he knows it would be pointless to remain with the Inquisition.  Better to die than to get tortured for info.

 

Save the Chargers, The IQ naively thinks Bull himself is loyal, after all, he/she just saved him from the evilz Qun.  Bull remains on the inside as a rogue agent, has a long term set up in the South with continued contact with agents the IQ believes are being used for his/her own benefit.  With the romances Bull comes out on top even more.  The IQ is in love with him and most likely gives him even more inside info.  With Dorian, his enemy nation's back door is open, both literally and figuratively. lol!!

 

But, I don't think Bull is outwardly a cruel guy, I believe him when he says he doesn't want people to get hurt but does it because, well it's his job.  That's why I think he was dropping major bombs at Dorian during Trespasser if he's with the Qun and why, in my "Bull is still loyal to the Qun no matter what" scenario, I can believe that all his boasting is really him just subtly warning the IQ and Dorian, that he is not to be trusted no matter what.  'I tell you what you want to hear, get it, wink wink, no hard feelings when I stab you in the back.'  sort of deal.  This is why I love the Bull betrayal scene in Trespasser and I don't hold it against him no matter what.

 

But I know that Bull is meant to be truly loyal if you save the Chargers.  Which is just freaking lame and I feel the writers should have come up with a better excuse for the Qun letting Bull go than some ragtag soldiers, expendable agents, and a ship they could stand to lose.  Because I can't figure out what the Qun loses that justifies letting TV Bull go.  A boat, and some agents seems like a very small price to pay for the position TV Bull finds himself in.

 

@Midnight Tea, IB is in fact devoted to the Qun.  He's devoted to the people, and the people are the Qun. He speaks highly of his mentor, the warriors, their fighting techniques and prowess, heck he even praises their way of life. He has no qualms about spying on them because in his mind, it keeps them all safe and the TV threatens that safety.  I'm sure Bull is upset by the idea of becoming a TV.  But does he truly believe TV are mindless killers?  Not likely.  Not when he acknowledges that the Qunari IQ isn't like that. So he knows that being a TV doesn't equal becoming some raving mindless beast. 

[In Exile]

This is my biggest issue with Bull and why I think the Tal Voshoth route is more of a lame power fantasy than anything that makes sense.  Bull goes from deeply devoted to the Qun with some minor hiccups (or so we are lead to believe) to full blown loyal member of the Inquisition who suddenly wishes to tell the IQ the full truth with no lies about anything, and he's willing to trade his entire country, and all the people he has shown to be passionately concerned about for a handful of soldiers.  And his hook up with Dorian is 100% legit and all about the love and not at all about the fact that Dorian is a Magister's son who just so happens to have self esteem issues, rebellious sexual past,  and just wants a guy willing to spend more than one night with him.  aka, the perfect mark.

 

truth be told, TV Bull is in the best position the Qun could ever hope for by the end of Trespasser. He stays with the Inquisition, gains notoriety, has the full trust of the IQ who believes he/she has changed his life forever with the Chargers, If the IQ is romanced, even better. If Dorian is romanced, he has a back door into Tevinter with the ambassador eating out the palm of his hands. 

 

And I'm supposed to believe that the Qun would give all that up for a boat and a failed agent?

I think you're misinterpreting his character. Bull isn't deeply devoted to the Qun. His faith in the Qun was absolutely shattered long before the events of DA:I. It's why he turned himself over for re-education, and why his entire band of mercenaries are outcasts from their particular society. Every time he talks about the Qun he's essentially talking about the absolutely horror and disaster that it will pose for Southern Thedas. He will, rarely, critique the social system generally (what does it matter to the exploited person who exploits them, which is a theme with Dorian and Tevinter too) but that's not really endorsing the Qun. 

 

Bull abandoned the Qun in large part by the time he left Par Vollen. That's part of why he's so up front about being a spy. 

 

It's why he loves Krem so much. Krem is everything he wants to be: someone who knows who he is, and who kind of always knew. That's the certainty the Qun is supposed to offer, but Bull doesn't have that at all.