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[Gervaise]

SPOILERS AHEAD

Some lore has been made available, particularly concerning the final years but I am more interested about what occurred in the early days that led to the set up in the Dales.  Specifically, how did the priesthood of the elven gods gain such dominance over elven thought?   Let me explain my reasoning.

 

When the elves first arrived after the Long March it is unlikely they were following the elven gods, although may have had some folk tales with them in.    Later Dalish lore has their storytellers saying that it was the elven gods who rewarded them for their persistence in reaching the end of the journey.    That has to be a later development.    Surely the only god the elves would recognise as assisting them was the Maker?    Even if Shartan had fallen at the same time as Andraste and the Maker apparently did not intervene, nevertheless Maferath and his sons honoured the assistance of the elves and gave them their Homeland as promised.    So who would you be more grateful to, the god who supported the crusading army or the gods who had never answered your prayers?

 

Ameridan honoured both Andraste/the Maker and the elven gods and apparently saw nothing wrong in doing so. In fact it seems odd that he should pray to either if he believed what the Chantry now teaches (that the Maker doesn't intervene) and the elven tales about the old gods being shut away.  Still I suppose it makes sense if this is simply a prayer to honour them without expecting any assistance.    He says it was Drakon who wanted to keep things simple but he also admits there were those among his own people who were arguing for isolationist tactics and not helping with the 2nd Blight.   He says they think that Drakon and Orlais are not better than the Imperium  (They were probably right about that) but Ameridan is a better politician than they are in realising that it is better to work with them than antagonise them.   Surely he could not have been the only person who thought like that in the whole of the Dales?

 

Then the codex concerning the High Keeper robes states that in the Dales the Keepers were not leaders and guides of the people but priests in the temples to the elven gods who served as archivists and magical scholars.    If that is the case, how did it come about that they became the leaders in the aftermath?

 

Then there is the lore concerning the Dalish that says before fall of the Dales many of the Dalish were elven nobility and the aravels are often adorned with the banners that once flew over the family's house.   That has always been something that I have wondered about.     The Dales only existed for some 250 years before they fell.   In that time a hierarchy established itself and it is their descendants who escaped the destruction of the Dales as wandering nomads, proudly declaring themselves the true keepers of tradition and led by the priesthood of the elven gods.  Did these nobles originally gain their status because they had the backing of the priesthood and vice versa?   Otherwise how did a nobility arise in such a short space of time when they had all started as slaves?

 

This would suggest to me that the elves that were captured and herded into alienages were the survivors among the ordinary elves who served them and were abandoned to their fate.   Could it even be that these elves never felt the same attraction for the "old ways" and simply wanted to be able to live in peace.     Were they actually more of a mind with Ameridan and honoured both the Maker and the elven gods?     Did they originally worship only the Maker and got bullied out of it by the others?   

 

Briala seemed to think that the city elves in Orlais at least thought the Dalish were out there in the wilds working on their behalf.   This made little sense unless it did relate back to some distant memory of the fact that those who escaped being captured were the nobility.    May be the ordinary elves fought on rather than fleeing because they had been ordered to in order that their leaders might escape and regroup and that is why the memory lived on that the Dalish were working on behalf of them all.  

 

It seems somewhat sad to me that the city elves seem to be the descendants of those who have always got the rough end of things.    There were elves who were slaves of the mage gods and nobility under the Evanuris, who then presumably then carried on serving the nobility in the surviving enclaves, in particular Arlathan, only to be rounded up and enslaved again by Tevinter.    Then after winning their freedom they travel to the Dales, only the be ruled over by nobles and mage priests of the elven gods once again, before being abandoned to their fate when the leadership embroiled them in a war they could not win. 

 

I could be wrong about all this of course but in some ways I feel there is still a big gap in elven history that needs explaining. 

 

Any thoughts on this, without it simply becoming another elf bashing thread because I genuinely enjoy playing elves, particularly the city elf origin in DAO but also got really into character with my Dalish Inquisitor.   I just asking myself why the obsession with the elven gods when they wouldn't have played any part in the elves lives for millennia before the founding of the Dales.   Is it possible that some ancient elf got involved at the beginning who was a follower of the evanuris and thus this was the reason for the positive view of the elven gods and the extremely negative view (from the followers of the evanuris perspective) of Fen'Harel's involvement? 

[Reznore57]

When the elves first arrived after the Long March it is unlikely they were following the elven gods, although may have had some folk tales with them in.    Later Dalish lore has their storytellers saying that it was the elven gods who rewarded them for their persistence in reaching the end of the journey.    That has to be a later development.    Surely the only god the elves would recognise as assisting them was the Maker?    Even if Shartan had fallen at the same time as Andraste and the Maker apparently did not intervene, nevertheless Maferath and his sons honoured the assistance of the elves and gave them their Homeland as promised.    So who would you be more grateful to, the god who supported the crusading army or the gods who had never answered your prayers?

It's not unlikely they were following the elven Gods.They spend who knows how long as slaves and they weren't worshipping the Old Gods.I think D. Gaider wrote the slaves managed to keep small part of their culture alive during their slavery time.
What's unlikely is them suddenly converting en masse to the Maker during this time.
First history isn't clear but the elves fought for their own freedom along Andraste.If you believe the story , Shartan was already running away .
There's also a number of humans involved Andraste , Maferath , Cathaire , Hector...on the elven side there's only Shartan and it seems him and his fellows were fighting mostly for their freedom (being slaves) and were not motivated by religious fervor like the other humans.
The elves fought for their freedom and for the promised land , it was a deal , not some strange miracle falling into their lap.So why would they suddenly think it's the Maker's gift?
Also you assume the Maker thing was super popular , by all account it wasn't.Maferath was fighting a holy war but I doubt he thought it was holy when you think about him backstabbing the "holy" savior.
People who followed Andraste and the Maker were mostly cultists here and there , and it's Tevinter who first turn it into a "official" religion.It was bloody.
Then we know Drakon took the torch but again it was spread by conquests.(and we're told in Inquisition , the old Inquisition spread the Chant by force.)

Ameridan honoured both Andraste/the Maker and the elven gods and apparently saw nothing wrong in doing so. In fact it seems odd that he should pray to either if he believed what the Chantry now teaches (that the Maker doesn't intervene) and the elven tales about the old gods being shut away.  Still I suppose it makes sense if this is simply a prayer to honour them without expecting any assistance.    He says it was Drakon who wanted to keep things simple but he also admits there were those among his own people who were arguing for isolationist tactics and not helping with the 2nd Blight.   He says they think that Drakon and Orlais are not better than the Imperium  (They were probably right about that) but Ameridan is a better politician than they are in realising that it is better to work with them than antagonise them.   Surely he could not have been the only person who thought like that in the whole of the Dales?

Also there is no proof of the Maker being involved , again history is unclear , but it seems current scholar in Thedas have down to the earth explanation for all the "miracles" Andraste performed.Also she did lost the war in the end.All the slaves in the north were never freed.
The elves could believe it was the Maker or their own Gods ,or the tooth fairy helping them.
It made sense to me they would prefer believing their Gods were looking after them afterall , it's a story they could write themselves while the Maker and Andraste mythology was out of their hands.
 

Then the codex concerning the High Keeper robes states that in the Dales the Keepers were not leaders and guides of the people but priests in the temples to the elven gods who served as archivists and magical scholars.    If that is the case, how did it come about that they became the leaders in the aftermath?

You can explain this.After loosing the Dales , the leaders won't be generals of the armies , there's no more armies.Just hunters and a couple of guards.The leaders won't be the wealthiest , or the one with the biggest house or land , all of it gone.
The leader might be the one with the most important thing: magic and knowledge , religion.It's supposed to be the future salvation of the Dalish somehow.They believe they were all mages , immortal blablab and when they'll manage to get part of it again their gods will come back and save them.The only ones who in theory would be able to find a clue about how to achieve that would be the current Keepers.
 

Then there is the lore concerning the Dalish that says before fall of the Dales many of the Dalish were elven nobility and the aravels are often adorned with the banners that once flew over the family's house.   That has always been something that I have wondered about.     The Dales only existed for some 250 years before they fell.   In that time a hierarchy established itself and it is their descendants who escaped the destruction of the Dales as wandering nomads, proudly declaring themselves the true keepers of tradition and led by the priesthood of the elven gods.  Did these nobles originally gain their status because they had the backing of the priesthood and vice versa?   Otherwise how did a nobility arise in such a short space of time when they had all started as slaves?

Even if they all started as slaves , that wouldn't have made them equal at all.(I'll point out how strange it is to assume ALL elves were made slaves by Tevinter in the first place.I know the lore says that but really?The Alamarri managed to escape in part but no elves?Come on)
Anyway as slaves they probably had different jobs , different skills.Some slaves were educated and some weren't.etc...
Again the elves were striving for a very civilized empire , so the one with education probably ended up on top for pragmatic and cultural reasons.
 

This would suggest to me that the elves that were captured and herded into alienages were the survivors among the ordinary elves who served them and were abandoned to their fate.   Could it even be that these elves never felt the same attraction for the "old ways" and simply wanted to be able to live in peace.     Were they actually more of a mind with Ameridan and honoured both the Maker and the elven gods?     Did they originally worship only the Maker and got bullied out of it by the others?

The elves weren't captured as far as I know , their land was taken , then they were given a choice you stay in human lands you go in alienage or you better love walking because GTFO.
There's no need to mix religion in this , just some people probably thought they had more chance of surviving in cities than in the wilderness.
 

Briala seemed to think that the city elves in Orlais at least thought the Dalish were out there in the wilds working on their behalf.   This made little sense unless it did relate back to some distant memory of the fact that those who escaped being captured were the nobility.    May be the ordinary elves fought on rather than fleeing because they had been ordered to in order that their leaders might escape and regroup and that is why the memory lived on that the Dalish were working on behalf of them all.

That whole thing is presented like the tooth fairy or Santa Claus , you don't really need a big reason for that.
People wants to hang on to something , so a city elves hears a tale of another city elves finding the Dalish and living among them?
Well it turns in the Dalish are badass and plan to save us all .
Same way people believe the Maker will eventually come back and save them , and the elves thinks the same about their gods when it's not even part of any scripture or mytholgy in the first place.
It's just wishful thinking and nothing else.
 

Any thoughts on this, without it simply becoming another elf bashing thread because I genuinely enjoy playing elves, particularly the city elf origin in DAO but also got really into character with my Dalish Inquisitor.   I just asking myself why the obsession with the elven gods when they wouldn't have played any part in the elves lives for millennia before the founding of the Dales.   Is it possible that some ancient elf got involved at the beginning who was a follower of the evanuris and thus this was the reason for the positive view of the elven gods and the extremely negative view (from the followers of the evanuris perspective) of Fen'Harel's involvement?

The elves wanted their magic and immortality back , and they thought it might be possible once their gods were freed from whatever place they were trapped.In a manner of speaking they were right all along , Fen Harel woke up and wants to bring it all back.
Remember the elves went through a terrible time , Gods were there , things sucked but Oh well.
Gods disppeared , all hell break loose , everything fall apart , elves start to age , and loose their magic etc..
So it's easy to come to the conclusion , things were better when their gods were among them.

The Maker was never there in the first place , his presence or non presence didn't change the world on such a deep level for the elves.

[Ashagar]

When it comes to the elves of the dales and the Maker one should prehaps keep in mind why would they convert on mass to the god of the people that enslaved them? Lets not forget the Maker is the ancestral creator deity of the Tevinter Imperium and the northern Neromenian tribes that came before them. Even when they were actively worshiping the old gods they still believed in him and at least honored him with a festival, its just that the old gods actively interacted with at least their priests and rewarded their followers until they went silent unlike the Maker who was always absent even then.

 

The Alamarri invasion took advantage of existing beliefs that already existed then took advantage of the anger that existed in the Imperium about the first blight and the resulting chaos by spinning it as being the result of humanity's sins(true to a point) and turning their back on the maker by worshiping the old gods(even though they continued to honor the maker even while they were worshiping the old gods).

[Gervaise]

Where does it say that Tevinter continued to honour the Maker with a festival after they turned to the old gods?   I've read through both source books and apart from within the Chant itself which I don't regard as a historically reliable source of information, there seems no real evidence that the first humans did worship the Maker at all.     Even if they did, the worship ceased once the Dreamers started to hear the old gods speaking to them around 300 years after their alleged arrival on the northern mainland and 50 years after Solas must have raised the Veil, since that is when the elves first sensed the quickening.   Meanwhile the southern barbarian tribes also seem to have abandoned him in favour of their spirit gods that the Avaar still honour to this day.   By the time that the Tevinter Imperium came into being the northern tribes had been following the old gods for some 1600 years and Dumat specifically for around 400 years.      A couple of hundred years after this was the fall of Arlathan.   So if elves had been coming into conflict with humans in the preceding period, they would not associate them with the Maker.

 

It has always been a puzzle to me why the elves continued to call on their gods for such an extended period when they received no answer and their own legends had given them a perfectly adequate reason why they were unable to answer.     All I can think is that pretty quickly after the raising of the Veil, the majority of them went into Uthenera, tended by small communities who continued to reproduce and tend them down the years.  So they had no contact with humans at all during the extended period from the raising of the Veil until the Tevinter Imperium started to expand into Arlathan Forest and disturbed their slumber.  Then the ancient ones were killed and their servants were the ones captured by the Imperium.   Actually, thinking about it, that makes a deal of sense.   Abelas talks about teaching the new ones who don't remember how Mythal was when she was alive, so it was probably the same with the priests of other gods.    That would explain the teaching about how once the new ones remember what it is to be proper elves, the gods will return and why the Evanuris were thought of in such a positive way.

 

It was only around 800 years from then until Andraste's crusade, so I'll grant they could still have retained some of their lore during that time.   However, why was Ameridan honouring both elven gods and Maker/Andraste if that wasn't common practice among at least some Dalish?   He was hardly doing it to please Drakon since he was miles away in the Frostback Mountains and besides he says that Drakon wanted things kept simple, which meant no god but the Maker, so honouring both jointly wouldn't have impressed him much. 

 

I have a feeling that the lore keepers of the Dalish have conveniently omitted the joint worship from their history for the same reason as the Chantry omitted Shartan.   Bearing in mind that the lore keepers in the Dales were also the priest of the elven gods, who became the Keepers of the Dalish, it is hardly surprising that they didn't want to admit that some elves in the Dales did follow the Maker.    Also the Emerald Knight involved in the Red Crossing story seemed to be as sceptical of the elven gods as he was of the Maker, which is why he saw no harm in saying what the Chantry mother wanted to hear.

 

Mother Giselle says the old Inquisition spread the Chantry by force.   Actually their main aim was dealing with cultists and other people who were a danger to the community and actually trying to bring some order into the chaos, so instead of people being lynched for suspected crimes, the old Inquisition tried to give them a proper hearing.   It seems to me that their bad press came from the fact that they treated everyone equally whether peasant or noble, which must have really got up the noses of the latter who tend to think they are above the law.   Ameridan's specialty was hunting demons I seem to recall.   Actually I find that the modern Inquisition very much mirrored the old one, even to the extent that Orlais wanted it put under their control and you could compromise by putting it under the Chantry.

 

Actually it is noticeable that apparently the Dalish didn't have a problem with their neighbours or the old Inquisition in the period prior to Drakon establishing the nation of Orlais.   The trouble only started when Drakon set up his official religion and then got worse when the empire started to spread.

 

Thanks for responding.  I do like to kick ideas around and get feedback. 

[Ashagar]

That both the ancient the Tevinter Imperium and earlier the northern Neromenians tribes had a creator deity they believed created the world and that it was both the same entity as the maker and not one of the old gods was confirmed by the developers.

 

I suspect the Maker fitted the category of the household gods of Tevinter while the Old Gods were the State Religion much like in ancient Rome given Tevinter roman fantasy counterpart vibe with the added bonus of actively answering prayers unlike the maker while until they went silent that is.

 

Going along those lines its likely the Tevinter honored the maker at home for creating the world perhaps even coupling it with some ancestor worship while publicly worshiping the old gods both to show their loyalty to the state and because they actively rewarded their followers, or did until they went silent.

[Reznore57]

It has always been a puzzle to me why the elves continued to call on their gods for such an extended period when they received no answer and their own legends had given them a perfectly adequate reason why they were unable to answer.

It's the same with the Maker, no?If you believe the Chant he's not coming back until everyone sings the Chant.It's pretty straighforward.Yet people are praying , and not just chanting.The Chantry should be busy creating choirs right left and center...but that's not what they're doing.
As for the situation of the Evanuris , even us player , do not know where they are and in what state.
It seems elves think they will one day set themselves free , afterall I've never met one Dalish on a "rescue the Evanuris" mission.
And again just like with the Maker , any elves can easily think if things turns out alright , well Mythal or Andruil helped me.
 

All I can think is that pretty quickly after the raising of the Veil, the majority of them went into Uthenera, tended by small communities who continued to reproduce and tend them down the years.  So they had no contact with humans at all during the extended period from the raising of the Veil until the Tevinter Imperium started to expand into Arlathan Forest and disturbed their slumber.  Then the ancient ones were killed and their servants were the ones captured by the Imperium.   Actually, thinking about it, that makes a deal of sense.   Abelas talks about teaching the new ones who don't remember how Mythal was when she was alive, so it was probably the same with the priests of other gods.    That would explain the teaching about how once the new ones remember what it is to be proper elves, the gods will return and why the Evanuris were thought of in such a positive way.

Yeah it's highly possible life kept on almost as usual for the elves after the veil was created.
In sundermount , Merrill says the elves defended their elders in slumbers from Tevinter.
About humans , I think it's way more complicated than it appears.
Tevinter and the elves probably lied about what truly happened there.
In DAO you can find an ancient ruins where elves , and humans were living together.(also hints of dwarves doing business with them)It's in Ferelden , the forest , anyway eventually something happened and it turned to war between elves and Tevinter.
In Seheron in the north they have legends of humans learning at the feet of elves.
Cassandra and some codex in WOT2 hints the Seekers found out Tevinter learned blood magic from elves too.
Also humans suddenly got dreamers when they arrived in Thedas.The most likely explanation is not the change of scenary gave them better magic , it's human started to breed with elves.
It would also explain a few thing , Tevinter covering up all of this in shame .Imagine all their power is directly related to elven lore and elven blood.(also might explain the obsession with breeding in Tevinter , they probably wanted to keep the elven blood flowing in human famillies as long as possible)
Would also explain the elves retreating in isolation and why the hostilities started.

It was only around 800 years from then until Andraste's crusade, so I'll grant they could still have retained some of their lore during that time.   However, why was Ameridan honouring both elven gods and Maker/Andraste if that wasn't common practice among at least some Dalish?   He was hardly doing it to please Drakon since he was miles away in the Frostback Mountains and besides he says that Drakon wanted things kept simple, which meant no god but the Maker, so honouring both jointly wouldn't have impressed him much.

Problem with Ameridan is the special snowflakes syndrome.He wasn't a random elf from the Dales.He was a very talented mage who went all over the place , was friend with the most powerful man at the time , and was leader of the Inquisition.
Obviously Ameridan couldn't be the only one , but his views of religion were probably not that widespread.
Again we're talking about a time where the Chantry was starting to be popular all over , but the time of cults or tribals worshipping whatever they felt like wasn't so far away or even over.
What made me think Ameridan personal religion wasn't a big "thing" is there is no relic of it , just his own personal altar.There's no sign of Andrastian worship in the Dales , as far as I can remember.
No Dalish tales mixed with Andrastian mythology either.
 

I have a feeling that the lore keepers of the Dalish have conveniently omitted the joint worship from their history for the same reason as the Chantry omitted Shartan.   Bearing in mind that the lore keepers in the Dales were also the priest of the elven gods, who became the Keepers of the Dalish, it is hardly surprising that they didn't want to admit that some elves in the Dales did follow the Maker.    Also the Emerald Knight involved in the Red Crossing story seemed to be as sceptical of the elven gods as he was of the Maker, which is why he saw no harm in saying what the Chantry mother wanted to hear.

The thing with Red Crossing is it shows there wasn't any fluidity between the Andrastian faith and the elven faith.I think the Chantry send some priests to convert elves and the elves weren't happy.
Also if I remember correctly Ameridan says his elven peers didn't share his opinions.
So I doubt elves worshipping the Maker and the elven Gods were easily accepted.Ameridan was in a position of power , and again part of the Inquisition so of course he had to believe a bit.
Also before the Chantry was fully settled into a worldwide power , there was a time when they were more open minded about magic.But it didn't last.
Elves are fond of magic , so that would cause issue with the Dales and ancient Dalish as well.
 

Actually it is noticeable that apparently the Dalish didn't have a problem with their neighbours or the old Inquisition in the period prior to Drakon establishing the nation of Orlais.   The trouble only started when Drakon set up his official religion and then got worse when the empire started to spread.
 
Thanks for responding.  I do like to kick ideas around and get feedback.

IMHO the roots of the problem were there from the get go and no matter what the elves and humans wouldn't have been able to co exist peacefully.
You have to look at the big picture :Elves had mostly a problem about being defeated and enslaved by Tevinter.They had no trouble with the magic , they wanted to recreate their own lost magical empire.Notice they held a grudge against humans but they don't blame mages at all or even the misuse of magic.Hell the Dalish don't even give a crap about the origin of the Blight, just oh yeah humans did this ,of course.
The humans on the other hand had a HUGE problem with the abuse of magic and mages in general.
So yeah of course it had to clash.

[Ghost Gal]

When the elves first arrived after the Long March it is unlikely they were following the elven gods, although may have had some folk tales with them in.    Later Dalish lore has their storytellers saying that it was the elven gods who rewarded them for their persistence in reaching the end of the journey.    That has to be a later development.    Surely the only god the elves would recognise as assisting them was the Maker?    Even if Shartan had fallen at the same time as Andraste and the Maker apparently did not intervene, nevertheless Maferath and his sons honoured the assistance of the elves and gave them their Homeland as promised.    So who would you be more grateful to, the god who supported the crusading army or the gods who had never answered your prayers?

 

I think you're taking belief in the Maker for granted. Just because ancient humans believed in the Maker and fought Tevinter on behalf of their god doesn't mean elves believed or fought for the same reason.

 

First, as Reznore57 said, the devs have said Tevinter elven slaves managed to keep parts of their culture and beliefs alive during their millennia of slavery, so it wasn't like they lost all their knowledge and belief in their own gods following their enslavement to Tevinter. They held onto enough memories and traditions following their freedom from Tevinter and Long Walk to their new home in the Dales, that they could put those memories and traditions into practice once they got their own home.

 

Secondly, while Andraste and Mafarath and their human followers believed in the Maker, they were still physical humans fighting a physical war. The elves fought alongside the humans for a common goal: freedom from Tevinter.

 

As the spirit of Shartan says in the Temple of Sacred Ashes: “It was my dream for the people to have a home of their own, where we would have no masters but ourselves. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and thus we followed Andraste, against the Imperium. But she was betrayed, and so were we.”

 

In DAO, a Non-Dalish Warden can ask the Dalish Camp what they think of Andraste, and they'll say words to the effect of, "She was a great general, and we greatly respect and admire her, and we're very grateful for what she did for us. We just don't believe she was the Bride of the Maker / we just don't want to worship the Maker." And that's fine.

 

In DA2, Anders badgers Merrill about the "truth" of the Maker one too many times, until she finally snaps, "Your Maker is just a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours."

 

And the elves do have their own stories. They know their gods haven't been around to help them, but they half-remember, half-fill in what happened. They remember a time when their "gods" were around and they were immortal and magical and had their own kingdom, then they experienced the Quickening (mortality, loss of magic, human offspring, etc), then became targets of oppression for humans. They called to their "gods" (the Evanuris) for help, but their gods had been locked away by Fen'Harel, so the elves were vulnerable to conquer and enslavement by humans. And Solas confirms in Trespasser that they were half-right; the ones they worshiped as gods were not actually gods and their worshipers were slaves, but Fen'Harel did indeed lock the elven "gods" away and cause the downfall of the elven people (by creating the Veil that caused the Quickening, albeit accidentally). 

 

In other words: By post-Tevinter memory, when their gods were around they were beautiful, immortal, magical, and free. When their gods disappeared, they lost everything and humans took everything. Who do you think they're going to want to worship?

 

Not to mention, most elves don't like being slaves or servants to humans, or for humans to tell them what they can and cannot believe. While a few elves might like living with humans (Sera) and/or worshiping a human god (Ameridan), I don't think there are as many as you think. As Shartan and Merrill expressed above, most post-Tevinter elves would rather do their own thing and practice their own beliefs, rather than the ones humans try to force on them. And I think many elves see bowing to a human god as being little different from bowing to a human; something most Dales elves were tired of. They wanted their own home where they could run their own lives and practice their own culture and religion without humans telling them what to do. (Then humans invaded and forced their religion on them anyway. Fancy that.)

[Ashagar]

Well at least the dalish elves anyway, the city elves on the other hand seem just about as likely that they would start worshiping the elven gods the dalish would be likely start worshiping the maker. The city elves are just as proud of their own cultural traditions as the dalish are of theirs which is why I expect the Dalish dreams of a unified homeland is a pipe dream even if the humans allowed such a thing to happen. They are two very different cultures with differentiating ancient cultural and religious traditions which conflict even if there are dalish who choose to become city elves and city elves who go off to become dalish.

[Ghost Gal]

Well at least the dalish elves anyway, the city elves on the other hand seem just about as likely that they would start worshiping the elven gods the dalish would be likely start worshiping the maker. The city elves are just as proud of their own cultural traditions as the dalish are of theirs which is why I expect the Dalish dreams of a unified homeland is a pipe dream even if the humans allowed such a thing to happen. They are two very different cultures with differentiating ancient cultural and religious traditions which conflict even if there are dalish who choose to become city elves and city elves who go off to become dalish.

 

True, humans performed a brilliant "divide and conquer" tactic by converting some elves to worship the Maker, then indoctrinating them with the belief that all non-Chantry religions are false/heathen so they'd reject elves of their own ancestral religion, and so elves who hold onto their ancestral religion would see them as traitors for converting.

 

When you look closely, though, I don't think Dalish or City Elf traditions are quite as different as all that.

 

Dalish and city elves both have cultures that revolve around preserving as much of their past, history, lore, traditions, and culture as possible. (And, of course, they have a shared history from ancient times all the way up to just after the conquer of the Dales.) They're both very community-oriented, tend to look upon their whole Clan or Alienage as their family rather than just their immediate nuclear blood relatives (like in the case of humans), they tend to elect an elder as their leader (Hahrens for city elves, Keepers for Dalish), and try to defer to the wisdom and experience of elders to guide them rather than just whoever has noble blood and/or the best military prowess (in the case of humans).

 

In a way, city and Dalish elves are more alike than they like to admit. And that last part's the problem. By constantly focusing on their differences, they're too busy sniping at each other to recognize how they can work toward a common goal...

 

... Until Fen'Harel showed up and gave them a common goal to work toward. If the closing slide of Trespasser is anything to go by, both city and Dalish elves are flocking to him en masse to help recreate their old world. And after seven hundred years of getting either scraps or the boot, who can really blame them? After seven hundred years, elves are tired of either scrubbing human floors or getting chased off human land. If humans are the oppressive majority who have all the power and all the land and won't let them have even a scrap of their own homeland, they'll side with someone who will. While it makes sense for Dalish to side with someone who'll promise to restore their old world, there's definitely evidence that city elves are reaching a breaking point. In DA2 elves left the Kirkwall Alienage en masse to join the Qunari, in The Masked Empire Val Royeaux city elves rebelled despite knowing the danger involved, and in Trespasser Thedas elves are leaving to join Fen'Harel en masse. Despite their differences, there's definitely evidence that, to paraphrase Shartan, both city and Dalish elves want "to have a home of our own, where we have no masters but ourselves," and they'll team up with even each other to have that.

[Ashagar]

I wonder, the ending to DA2 implied all the mages went into rebellion only for it to turn out they split into three camps, loyalists, rebel and camp screw this I am finding somewhere to hid before the rebels or templars try to kill me. Makes me wonder if there will be a elven faction directly opposed to Fen'Harel and his followers in the next game.

[Gervaise]

I hope they do have different factions of elves in the next game.   Whilst I understand why elves would rush off to join Fen'Harel, particularly if he doesn't give them the full story concerning his plans, but quite possibly would still do so even if he did, I would hate it to be either elves working for Solas or elves  working for the Qun, with no 3rd way of those working for all without endorsing either mass genocide or surrendering to the strictures of the Qun.

 

Most of my questions above related not to the situation now or even the situation immediately after the war of the Dales but the period leading up to it.   We only have the Chantry's word for it that people were universally against magic and mages.   Look at the Avaar, who are the nearest thing to the barbarians of that time.   They have a perfectly happy relationship with magic and the spirit world.   If it is true that Andraste was a mage, then her barbarian tribes probably didn't have an issue with it either.   So to say that it was inevitable that the Dales would come into conflict with the humans around them may not have been true.   It was inevitable once the Chantry aggressively began to spread their version of the Andrastrian cult.   Some of the cults which existed were dangerous and aggressive but there were equally others, like the Daughters of Song, who were anything but.     This is why I am trying to separate the propaganda on both sides subsequent to a destructive war, with what might have been.    The Chantry have never bothered to do anything about the Avaar or the Chassind, probably because neither occupied an area that was considered worth fighting over by the nobles whose supported they needed.  

 

Take the City elves acceptance of the Chantry to a large extent.   Why?  If they had withstood the priesthood of the Tevinter Imperium whilst slaves, who would have been anxious to ensure that the elves didn't retain their culture, why didn't they continue to honour the elven gods once they were safely locked up in the alienages?  They were able to introduce their vhenadahl tree into a very visible place in the alienage, so surely they could have worshipped their own gods behind closed doors?  Why would they so easily accept the faith of the people who destroyed their homeland?   By all means make a nominal show in public to appease their overlords but not in their minds.

 

Yet in DAO we have the wedding ceremony presided over by a Chantry sister.   May be it helps to have recognition of the Chantry for your union but considering elves have very little in the way of inheritance and Vaughan at least had no respect for the sanctity of the service, whilst the Chantry Mother did damn all to help the situation, it hardly seemed worth the bother.   In any case, the city elves do follow the Maker, because Pol lets slip "thank the Maker" when we encounter him in DA2 and then correct himself.   So it has been well ingrained in his psyche.  

 

Admittedly the elves in Kirkwall do abandon the Maker pretty easily when offered an alternative by the Qun but that isn't all of them and the fact that the Qun do seem to have so many agents spread across the south only goes to show how easy it is to fool the Chantry zealots.    So it does seem odd that there isn't a stronger tradition to existing among the city elves concerning the elven gods, which is why I suggested that perhaps not all of those in the Dales were as committed to them as the Dalish would like us to believe.

[Ashagar]

Remember though outside of much of what now Ferelden and the frostback mountains most of the lands was inhabited by other non Alamarri tribes who were under the control of the Imperium and the mage friendly Alamarri tribes almost immediately lost control of these regions in some places like what now's Orlais with their leaders being assassinated by the locals.

 

Its quite possible the chantry and perhaps other accounts are accounts were true at least when talking about whats now the Orlaisian empire and prehaps some other regions especially given by accounts the game existed even back then amoungst the Orlaisian tribes and that might have fed into it. Also in places like the free marches magic would have likely been associated with the Tevinter Imperium, brutality and slavery especially in places like Kirkwall which was a major slave port for the Imperium.

[Gervaise]

I was looking at what happens if you give the information about Red Crossing to the Chantry sister instead of the Dalish clan, which I never do in game since I invariably play elves.  The difference in reaction to the story is striking.   While the Dalish wish to make a peace offering, the Chantry sister puts a wholly biased spin on the whole thing and says it proves how terrible the Dalish are, when it is clear there were faults on both sides.  When I think how unenthusiastic and begrudging my advisors are when I want to follow up on the Dalish peace offering, it really riles me up.  

 

Another little loose end.   In Masked Empire Imshael claims the last time the eluvians were working was at the time of the fall of Halamshiral.   Yet Morrigan claims, if there is no god baby so she is revelling in how much elvish she can now understand, that the book she is reading says the eluvians were shut down at the time of the elven civil war, to stop them being used in it.   That would make sense, particularly if Solas was the one controlling them as he does now.   So do you suppose that the reference was a mistake by PW or they did get reactivated by someone at the time the elves were in occupation of the Dales but it simply was not recorded in Morrigan's book because that was written much earlier?    Yet if the eluvians were active, who was controlling them and why did the Dalish seem to have no knowledge of them?

[Ashagar]

Likely the high leadership of the dales who as far as tell largely didn't survive the wars end. Given the dales seemed like they were better far prepared for the war with Orlais than the empire was with the dales as they pointedly quckly overan and sacked over half half the empire including the capital before the chantry declared holy war in response to that.

 

Perhaps the network or at least the part of it connected to the dales and Orlais was activated somehow and used by the dales in their war against the empire which might help explain how they were able to advance and take so many cities quickly.

[Ghost Gal]

I wonder, the ending to DA2 implied all the mages went into rebellion only for it to turn out they split into three camps, loyalists, rebel and camp screw this I am finding somewhere to hid before the rebels or templars try to kill me. Makes me wonder if there will be a elven faction directly opposed to Fen'Harel and his followers in the next game.

 

I hadn't considered this, but I think you make an excellent point.

 

I think it's very likely the elves will split into factions. In DA2 many elves joined the Qunari, but just as many rejected them and hated them for seducing their brothers and sisters away. (As shown with the unsultingly unnamed "Elven Fanatic"). While many city elves have already thrown in their lot with the Qunari, and many city and Dalish elves are joining Fen'Harel, I'm pretty sure there will be at least one other elven faction (like Briala and Lavellan) that rejects both. Maybe there will be a faction of human loyalists, maybe there will be a faction of not-too-fond-of-humans elves who say, "I don't like the way the world is either, but I'd rather keep working at it than destroy it or conquer it for the Qun."

 

Yes, the more I think of it, the more I doubt all elves across all Thedas with line up to join the Qun or Fen'Harel.

 

I just hope BioWare actually explores and branches out this idea, instead of just showing us two enemy elf factions (those who work for the Qun, and those who work for Fen'Harel) and make it seem like all elves are the enemy instead of a deeply divided people who are tired of oppression but who, like most people, have different ideas of what to do about it.

[Ashagar]

Yeah,we got those elves in the far west of Orlais who seem to not worship the known elven gods but offer up their foes to unknown gods(perhaps they follow the forgotten ones?), the elves who follow the qun, the chantry following city elves, the Tevinter elves, the few surviving ancient elves and the dalish for certain with that many groups I can't picture them all following solas or getting together with each other for that matter even if they oppose Solas.

[Gervaise]

I'm thinking that at least during the time of the Dales there may have been several different factions among the Dalish, just as there were many different cults of Andraste before Drakon decided to simplify things.  It is noticeable that we have now been told that there was a cult of the Forgotten Ones during the time of the Dales and that they were persecuted by the regular priesthood.   These cultists called upon the Forgotten Ones to exact vengeance against humans for their past affronts against the elven people.   Now originally they were condemned for "committing a great crime and forsaken their people in return for a twisted and terrible strength."    The elves in the Tirashan are said to be offering up their enemies as a sort of sacrifice, so I wonder if the power they get is simply the result of sacrificial blood magic or something more.   Presumably the priesthood considered the main crime was turning from the Creators to the Forgotten Ones but at least they were condemning these elves that had such racist malign intent.    It does seem to fit with the Dalish originally just wanting to be left alone and not being actively aggressive towards their human neighbours.   I also wonder if some of the attacks down the years attributed to the Dalish that involved human sacrifice may have been connected to these cultists, since clearly the people in Serault thought they were Dalish elves, at least until they realised they weren't calling on the regular elven gods and usually the victims would be dead so couldn't say one way or the other.    I know there appeared to be Dalish conducting the sacrifice of innocents in DAI in connection with the Sulevin blade but that didn't necessarily mean they had the approval of the majority.  When things started to look bad for the future of the Dales, that is when people would be most likely to turn to forbidden cults out of desperation.    When Josephine tells a Dalish Inquisitor of the sorts of stories that are starting to circulate about Dalish atrocities, you can dismiss them as nonsense and people just making things up but there is probably an element of truth in there somewhere, particularly now we know there were Dalish elves who indulged in such practices.  

 

I certainly hope the writers don't make the elves entirely on the opposing side in the future, whether it be the Qun, Solas or elven cultists.     I would like to see a faction at least of the Dalish who are still faithful to their ideals of wanting to live by their own culture and customs, willing to live in harmony and co-operation with their human neighbours against common enemies, without surrendering their own identity or submitting to human domination; pretty much what we know of clan Lavellan.   What I would also like to see is such moderate Dalish elves are finally rewarded with a greater degree of toleration and acceptance generally across the nations.   Clan Lavellan's success in Wycome only comes about through a Dalish Inquisitor and thus no doubt can be written out again just as easily, like it was with the Dalish boon for a Dalish Warden. 

[Heimdall]

My impression has always been that the Dalish religion is a reconstructed one, likely pieced together through half remembered stories after the establishment of the Dales. It's likely that the Mage leaders of this faith became the nobility and it fits that, according to Lanaya, the Dalish clans are descended from the noble houses that ruled the Dales.

That fact alone puts a different spin on the Dalish narrative. They're disenfranchised nobles that lost the power they had under a religion that legitimized their authority. The common people sent to alienages were those with the least to lose from the loss of the Dalish religion. It's possible that the reason the Dalish rulers were so eager to keep the Andrastian missionaries out was because they were actually having success in finding converts, thus undermining the state legitimizing faith.

Let's remember that while the Old Tevinters believed in the existence of a creator deity they believed the Old Gods existed outside his plan and saved them from his negligence. Andraste endorsed the elven rebellion, indirectly gave them a new homeland, and Shartan converted, dying in the Prophet's defense. Andrastianism was not the faith of the oppressor in this era, it was the faith of their liberators, that must have held some appeal.

[Ghost Gal]

I would like to see a faction at least of the Dalish who are still faithful to their ideals of wanting to live by their own culture and customs, willing to live in harmony and co-operation with their human neighbours against common enemies, without surrendering their own identity or submitting to human domination; pretty much what we know of clan Lavellan.   What I would also like to see is such moderate Dalish elves are finally rewarded with a greater degree of toleration and acceptance generally across the nations.   Clan Lavellan's success in Wycome only comes about through a Dalish Inquisitor and thus no doubt can be written out again just as easily, like it was with the Dalish boon for a Dalish Warden. 

 

Well-said. 

 

I agree 100%. This is my wish too.

[Ghost Gal]

 

 

My impression has always been that the Dalish religion is a reconstructed one, likely pieced together through half remembered stories after the establishment of the Dales. It's likely that the Mage leaders of this faith became the nobility and it fits that, according to Lanaya, the Dalish clans are descended from the noble houses that ruled the Dales.

 

I agree the Dalish religion sounds like it was mostly reconstructed through half-remembered stories. However, much as I love the Dalish, I always thought the nobility narrative sounded... a little too self-flattering. A good way to retroactively say, "Yeah, we were always special. It's in our blood." Or "While our weak-willed brethren converted, we remained faithful to our culture. How could we not? We were the Dales nobility." And how convenient there are no records that prove otherwise? Society falls, a few remnants escape, then they can say afterwards, "Oh yeah, we were nobles," and who's gonna contradict them?

 

Besides... peasants tended to be just as, if not more, pious than the nobles in ancient and medieval times because their lives sucked and religion gave them hope. BioWare just spent a whole game exploring this concept in Inquisition. 

 

Also, do we really believe that after years of war with the humans and then Halamshiral being under siege and then elves everywhere being held at swordpoint, where they were basically told to convert or die, that ONLY the nobles said, "Never!" and fled into the woods? That there were no random peasants from small villages too small to be marked on any map, and thus beneath human notice, didn't slip quietly into the night?

 

 

 

That fact alone puts a different spin on the Dalish narrative. They're disenfranchised nobles that lost the power they had under a religion that legitimized their authority. The common people sent to alienages were those with the least to lose from the loss of the Dalish religion. It's possible that the reason the Dalish rulers were so eager to keep the Andrastian missionaries out was because they were actually having success in finding converts, thus undermining the state legitimizing faith.

 

I wouldn't be so quick to call it a "fact." The Dalish claim they were Dales nobility, but since the Elven Dales was destroyed we have no proof. (Then again, they claimed they were once immortal and that turned out to be true, so who can say at this point?)

 

No offense, but it always seems so self-flattering to me when Andrastian fans say that. Like the elves were just clamoring to convert to Andrasteism (a human religion to a human god, after they spent centuries trying to get out from under their human yokes), but those tyrannical Dales priests forced them to remain with their horrible, false elvish gods. 

 

No offense, but the whole world outside the Dales was converting to Andrastiansm at that point. If they wanted to convert, they knew exactly where to go. If they wanted to bow to a human god and live alongside humans, they had the whole freaking continent outside the Dales available to them. (Hell, one Emerald Knight slipped away from his post and went to the border village of Red Crossing and converted to Andrastianism to marry a woman he loved. Who knows how many lesser elves from lesser stations went and did the same?) The Dales was the one country in the world where they could be an elven nation with an elven religion and elven leaders and elven gods, without humans telling them, once again, what they could and couldn't do, who they could and couldn't worship.
 

 

Let's remember that while the Old Tevinters believed in the existence of a creator deity they believed the Old Gods existed outside his plan and saved them from his negligence. Andraste endorsed the elven rebellion, indirectly gave them a new homeland, and Shartan converted, dying in the Prophet's defense. Andrastianism was not the faith of the oppressor in this era, it was the faith of their liberators, that must have held some appeal.

 

Whoa, Bessie! I never saw any proof of that.

 

Shartan's (supposed) spirit in the Temple of Sacred Ashes only had this to say: "It was my dream for the people to have a home of their own, where we would have no masters but ourselves. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and thus we followed Andraste, against the Imperium. But she was betrayed, and so were we." Not a single mention of faith or conversion; and that would be the place to mention it if it had happened!

 

It seems to me that Shartan fought for the freedom of his people, not the god of his human allies. It's possible he could have come to regard Andraste as a trusted ally, friend, or even lover. (Rumors circulated that they were lovers.) He could have been killed alongside her because they were close allies, or just because he was one of her top generals (and the general of her elven armies) to break the spirit of her followers. But no one ever said he wholeheartedly converted to her religion or fought for her god.

 

And technically speaking, there's no strong reason the elves should trip over themselves to worship her. Various Dalish characters in DAO mention that they think Andraste was a brave, noble, admirable woman, a respected general, and they're forever grateful for what she did for the elves; they just don't believe she was the Bride of the Maker and/or they just don't want to worship her. (Expressed in this codex.) (It's like many real-world Jews who'll say, "Jesus was a cool guy/prophet; we just don't believe he was the Son of God.")

 

And again, I'm gonna defer to Merrill here: "Your 'Maker' is just a story you humans use to explain the world. We have our own stories. I don't need to borrow yours."

 

Let's remember that elves had spent centuries living as slaved to humans, and only recently won their freedom. After centuries of following orders from humans, they were now free to live however they wanted. Why would they use that new freedom to just bow to another sect of humanity? Sure, these humans had helped them gain freedom, but the same holds true for the elves. Just because elves helped Southern Thedas humans win their freedom from Tevinter doesn't mean the humans were eager to worship elven gods, so why should elves be eager to bow to a human god? The two mortals Andraste and Shartan gave them the gift of freedom, and most of them honored that gift by using it as soon as possible, as seen here in the Long Walk Codex.

[Ashagar]

There is also the matter that countries before the modern era generally viewed loyalty to the state, even if elves weren't clamoring to convert its quite possible that converts to Andrastianism(the chantries aren't the only form of it after both historically in the setting and in present day of any stripe) would have been considered disloyal to the state especially in a country that's national goal trying  recreate their old way of life before the humans.

 

Of course for all we know there could have been a also small native andrastian cult which might also be the origin of the book of Shartan that circulates among the city elves.

[Ghost Gal]

There is also the matter that countries before the modern era generally viewed loyalty to the state, even if elves weren't clamoring to convert its quite possible that converts to Andrastianism(the chantries aren't the only form of it after both historically in the setting and in present day of any stripe) would have been considered disloyal to the state especially in a country that's national goal trying  recreate their old way of life before the humans.

 

Of course for all we know there could have been a also small native andrastian cult which might also be the origin of the book of Shartan that circulates among the city elves.

 

Actually, I'm glad you brought the different cults part.

 

Now that you mentioned the cults, in the early days before the Chantry there were many different "cults" or branches of Andrasteism among humans. (Much like how, in real life, there were many different branches of early Christianity before it all got unified into what we now know as the Roman Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy.) Different people worshiped in her and the Maker in their own ways, with the Orlesian Emperor making his own personal cult of Andrastianism the "dominant" one because he was an Imperialistic conqueror who went around conquering and converting his neighbors, swallowing up and outlawing lesser ones. (The Dales being one of them.)

 

And, like you said, if the elves were really interested in worshiping Andraste, they could form their own small native cult or religion to worship her (and Shartan!) in their own elfy way. They didn't need the human Chantry coming in telling them how to see and how to worship their own savior, if they were interested in worshiping her at all. There's already evidence that there were different "cults" of belief within the Dales (like a cult that might have worshiped the Forgotten Ones), so it's possible an Andrasteism could have been one of them.

[Ashagar]

Also something I noticed is that some cultures like the Japanese, Romans(Who the Tevinter are a fantasy counterpart to) others of taking part in several different religions and having no issue with it(something that a number of early christian converts also did a notable example being King Rædwald of East Angla who had a temple with a pagan alter and a christian one).

[Ghost Gal]

Also something I noticed is that some cultures like the Japanese, Romans(Who the Tevinter are a fantasy counterpart to) others of taking part in several different religions and having no issue with it(something that a number of early christian converts also did a notable example being King Rædwald of East Angla who had a temple with a pagan alter and a christian one).

 

That's true. Some pre-modern era nations did at least tolerate the presence of other religions within their borders, as long as it didn't step on the toes of the "dominant" religion of state.

 

Like you've said, the worship of the Elven Gods was the official religion of the Dales. While there's hints that there were different "cults" that worshiped different entities from the elven gods (like the Forgotten Ones), or might have worshiped them in a different way, I'm guessing they were allowed as long as they didn't threaten or undermine the authority of the state. 

 

I forgot to mention the codex entry you can find in DAI, "The Exalted March of the Dales." (Codex -> History -> 42.) In it, an anonymous author challenges the "accepted" Andrastian narrative of the Dales as a "hostile, unreasoning people attacking innocent missionaries." S/he points out "the likely truth is that the elves merely wished to maintain sovereignty over lands promised to them by blessed Andraste herself, when humans showed clear intent to undermine their autonomy." (S/he also points out that the Chantry stands to gain by perpetuating the hostile, unreasoning savage narrative, since "it is easy to see on any map how large the Dales are. More importantly, they stand between Orlais and the rest of the South and would likely have represented a significant obstacle to the Empire's expansion into Ferelden.")

 

So... yeah.

[nette000]

I hadn't considered this, but I think you make an excellent point.

 

I think it's very likely the elves will split into factions. In DA2 many elves joined the Qunari, but just as many rejected them and hated them for seducing their brothers and sisters away. (As shown with the unsultingly unnamed "Elven Fanatic"). While many city elves have already thrown in their lot with the Qunari, and many city and Dalish elves are joining Fen'Harel, I'm pretty sure there will be at least one other elven faction (like Briala and Lavellan) that rejects both. Maybe there will be a faction of human loyalists, maybe there will be a faction of not-too-fond-of-humans elves who say, "I don't like the way the world is either, but I'd rather keep working at it than destroy it or conquer it for the Qun."

 

Yes, the more I think of it, the more I doubt all elves across all Thedas with line up to join the Qun or Fen'Harel.

 

I just hope BioWare actually explores and branches out this idea, instead of just showing us two enemy elf factions (those who work for the Qun, and those who work for Fen'Harel) and make it seem like all elves are the enemy instead of a deeply divided people who are tired of oppression but who, like most people, have different ideas of what to do about it.

 

That would make plenty of room for the background for an Elven character and for several "patrons" and antagonists.