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[Qun00]

There is no need to take it to Velanna's level of stubborn anger, but that will be there to some extent.

The enviroment you grow up in is a relevant factor, and the Dalish Warden is raised among people that bear a grudge against humans. You can even see Hahren Paivel telling the children about how mankind took everything from them.

Likewise, City Elves are powerless to ever fight back against the endless abuses their people suffers as they have no rights.

Now, there is an instance where your character's feelings towards humans are challenged the most.

Was your Mahariel/Tabris willing or even tempted to leave the people of Redcliffe to their fate? After all, it is true that no one would rush to rescue a group of elves if the situation were reversed.

[straykat]

It all depends.. My Tabris is shady, but I guess a hero. The "Dark Wolf" is like another Black Fox or Robin Hood to me. I have two Mahariels. One who killed the humans in the beginning. And one who didn't. The one who killed them thinks he's cursed and learns to chill out over time. The one who didn't just feels more resentful over time.

[Qun00]

It all depends.. My Tabris is shady, but I guess a hero. The "Dark Wolf" is like another Black Fox or Robin Hood to me. I have two Mahariels. One who killed the humans in the beginning. And one who didn't. The one who killed them thinks he's cursed and learns to chill out over time. The one who didn't just feels more resentful over time.

Do you mind elaborating on why?

[straykat]

Do you mind elaborating on why?

 

I just go for the heroic thing with Tabris because everything about their origin is kind of fun and urban.. nothing too serious or psychopathic.. even with all the killing. Typical Rogue archetype, I guess. Their mom seemed cool like that too. City Elves in general don't care as much about elfy-ness anyways. They emphasize class and social stuff. Look at Sera. Look at Tallis. Look at Fenris. It's why I can't wait to play one again.

 

As for Mahariel, like I said, it's just a matter of feeling cursed and guilty. The who didn't kill the humans feels more blameless and resentful. Like they did nothing wrong, and they get angry about their lot in life. They also blame Tamlen though.

[congokong]

You can also play an elven mage who lives in the Circle Tower. They have the least reason to hate humans specifically. So if you're looking to play a less "efly" elf, similar to Zevran and Fenris, Surana's backstory is the way to go.

[straykat]

You can also play an elven mage who lives in the Circle Tower. They have the least reason to hate humans specifically. So if you're looking to play a less "efly" elf, similar to Zevran and Fenris, Surana's backstory is the way to go.

 

Yeah, if I play a mage, I prefer it over Amell. Both DAO and DA2 are great for both mage or rogue. I'm kind of torn between who I like more.

[Qun00]

I just go for the heroic thing with Tabris because everything about their origin is kind of fun and urban.. nothing too serious or psychopathic.. even with all the killing. Typical Rogue archetype, I guess. Their mom seemed cool like that too. City Elves in general don't care as much about elfy-ness anyways. They emphasize class and social stuff. Look at Sera. Look at Tallis. Look at Fenris. It's why I can't wait to play one again.

As for Mahariel, like I said, it's just a matter of feeling cursed and guilty. The who didn't kill the humans feels more blameless and resentful. Like they did nothing wrong, and they get angry about their lot in life. They also blame Tamlen though.

Those three had little experience with oppression towards elves. Sera and Tallis have lived a better life away from the alienage and Fenris' suffering comes from being a slave before anything else.

And the way one perceives how city elves are treated isn't a matter of "feeling elfy". It is reality.

[straykat]

Those three had little experience with oppression towards elves. Sera and Tallis have lived a better life away from the alienage and Fenris' suffering comes from being a slave before anything else.

And the way one perceives how city elves are treated isn't a matter of "feeling elfy". It is reality.

 

I didn't say I ignored oppression. Tallis, Fenris, and Sera don't either. When I say elfy, I mean that thinking that the past matters. And "deep lore" arguing how the world was created. It's irrelevant to day to day life.

 

The present matters. Politics and justice matter. Those are the things I focus on, elf or not. I like doing the same thing as a Ferelden in Kirkwall too. These things matter to all kinds of people, regardless if you're elf or not. The Chantry cares about it too, even with it's problems. "From the lowliest slave to the highest king". If I have one thing I like doing all across all three games, it's to correct some of the wrongs. Not play characters who embrace more hate. That does little for me.

[luna1124]

I have always started out to play an evil city elf, but end up being a nice person. Same with Dalish.. wanting to be mean, but can't do it

[Bardox9]

It depends on the origin for me.

Dalish Elf - Hate is a good word for his/her view on humans. Reluctantly tolerating human existence as you need the human fodder to battle the Blight.

 

City Elf - Distrust is the word. Exposure to Humans throughout his/her life has lead to a certain level of understanding. There are pricks no matter where you go, but there are kind gentle souls as well be you Elf, Dwarf, or Human. You are ultimately on your own however. 

 

Mage Elf - The life this origin has carried our protagonist through has lead to an outlook of seeing little to no difference between Elf and Human. It's a difference between mage and non-mage. Resentful of Templar and Chantry, but nothing against Humans in general. To spin a cliche', "My best friend is a human."

[Ghost Gal]

*shrug* Depends on how you imagine your character, what kind of life you imagine they lived, and how you imagine them reacting to it. Also how they react to what we're shown in the origin.

 

Dalish Elf: Probably most reason since you were raised on stories of human greed and cruelty, and the few humans you encounter tend to run Dalish out with torches and pitchforks.

 

(I make poor Dalish Wardens though. My first one had full-blown autism and only ever thought of hunting and traps. My second one had a hard time conceptualizing hating humans because she'd been raised on so many stories of humans sucking that she just kind of took it for granted that that's how humans are. She figured she'd dislike humans once she met them and they treated her the way she'd been taught humans treated elves, but from her clan it seemed as pointless to hate humans for being themselves as it is to hate a porcupine for being pointy.)

 

City Elf: I personally think has the most reason to hate humans because you've actually experienced human cruelty your whole life. Your mother was murdered by humans, you grew up next door to Vaughan Kendells and his cronies, various members of the alienage have had their lives ruined or uprooted by human whims (like Nessa's family having to move because the human who owns the storage shed they live in selling it, or the beggar who's legs were crushed by the dangerous work he was made to do, then dumped in an alley rather than receiving magical healing, leaving him crippled for life), etc.

 

Circle Elf: I wouldn't write off completely. If you talk to Duncan before leading him to his room, he can comment on your elven heritage, and ask if you've been treated any differently for being an elf. While you can respond that you haven't been treated differently, you can also comment that you've been bullied a little, or that you've been bullied a lot. (Dealer's choice, it seems.) Not to mention Eadric in the Circle wants to show humans what he's made of, so it is canon that elves experience at least some prejudice in the Circle.

 

I personally have a hard time believing that people can just check their prejudice at the door like a coat. Elves are considered inherently inferior in human society (physically, intellectually, and morally; "like rats," "lazy, vulgar thieves," etc), and Templars are all humans raised on the outside, and all mages spend at least some time out there in the human world before they're brought to the Circle. I doubt the humans can walk through the door and just magically stop feeling any prejudice the second they're inside, nor that the elves with memory of the outside all experienced fair treatment by humans before they were brought to the Circle.

 

Not to mention the knowledge that even if you weren't a mage, you'd still be treated like dirt in human society. Most human mages bemoan their magic like, "Oh, if only I didn't have magic, I could live a normal life and be treated fairly." I've never created a mage elf who wasn't aware that even if she didn't have magic, she'd still be treated poorly and unfairly out there. "Yeah, that's great for you, Jowan/Anders. If you just didn't have magic, you could settle down in a farm and get married and be treated like an average guy. If I didn't have magic, I'd have to go live in poverty and second-class citizenry in the alienage, and get treated like a servant at best, vermin at worst."

 

Not to mention that many Circle elves know their people are inherently more in-tuned with magic, which has been demonized by the human Andrastian society. Also being in the Circle you've probably gotten the best history education and heard the most Chantry rhetoric. Between knowing in great detail what your people have lost under humans and hearing the anti-elf religious rhetoric (like Red Crossing), you probably have yet more reason to, if not hate humans, just be aware that you have reason not to like them.

[springacres]

It depends on the origin for me.

Dalish Elf - Hate is a good word for his/her view on humans. Reluctantly tolerating human existence as you need the human fodder to battle the Blight.

 

City Elf - Distrust is the word. Exposure to Humans throughout his/her life has lead to a certain level of understanding. There are pricks no matter where you go, but there are kind gentle souls as well be you Elf, Dwarf, or Human. You are ultimately on your own however. 

 

Mage Elf - The life this origin has carried our protagonist through has lead to an outlook of seeing little to no difference between Elf and Human. It's a difference between mage and non-mage. Resentful of Templar and Chantry, but nothing against Humans in general. To spin a cliche', "My best friend is a human."

In general, I agree, but the Magi Elf outlook would also depend on how old he or she was when taken to the Circle and how badly they were treated when there.  (For reference, the Human Mage has the option to tell Eadric in the Circle Library, "I don't take orders from elves" when told by the latter to get out of his light.)

 

This isn't generally a problem for me, because I usually headcanon that my elf mages were taken at a young age and that their being mentored by the First Enchanter gave them some measure of protection against overt anti-elf prejudice.  However, I can see that for an elf taken at an older age, even being mentored by Irving might not be enough to fully overcome prejudice against humans.  So it really depends on the player's headcanon.

[springacres]

Not to mention the knowledge that even if you weren't a mage, you'd still be treated like dirt in human society. Most human mages bemoan their magic like, "Oh, if only I didn't have magic, I could live a normal life and be treated fairly." I've never created a mage elf who wasn't aware that even if she didn't have magic, she'd still be treated poorly and unfairly out there. "Yeah, that's great for you, Jowan/Anders. If you just didn't have magic, you could settle down in a farm and get married and be treated like an average guy. If I didn't have magic, I'd have to go live in poverty and second-class citizenry in the alienage, and get treated like a servant at best, vermin at worst."

Personal headcanon has my M!Surana lecturing Wynne on this after she gives one too many of her own lectures to his lover Zevran.

[Qun00]

How did you guys deal with Redcliffe?

[straykat]

How did you guys deal with Redcliffe?

 

One Dalish rejected helping. But in the end, it sucked.. because Redcliffe still had a statue to the HoF in DAI and the town looked no different.

 

I roleplayed the other one to be weary at first. You get some good dialogue if you reject Teagan at first. It's only when I go through all the NPCs and meet Lloyd that I change my mind. Who wants to be compared to that cowardly bastard? My character had some dignity..plus he felt bad in front of the chicks. This is the rogue's brand of heroism, I guess.

 

He'll always have a problem with human nobility..not human commoners.. but there are people like Alistair as well.

[Ghost Gal]

Personal headcanon has my M!Surana lecturing Wynne on this after she gives one too many of her own lectures to his lover Zevran.

 

Out of curiosity, how does your man being an elf have to do with Wynne disapproving of his love for Zevran?

 

I can't say her lectures have impressed me either. Her whole, "You must serve men" spiel raised the hackles of my city elf, who thought, "I've 'served men' my whole life! It's their turn to return the favor."

 

The only Warden who disapproved of her disapproval of their love life (most of them figured she meant well) was my female Surana with Zevran. Although it was more along the lines of, "I lived in your stupid Circle and followed your stupid rules all my life, and avoided making emotional attachments to anyone (besides Jowan) because I knew the likes of you and Irving would sell them out to the Templars. Now I'm free, and I can be with someone if I want."

 

How did you guys deal with Redcliffe?

 

Duh, saved everyone.

 

I'll admit most of my elves know how to hold a grudge against humanity, but none of them have hated humans enough to let a whole village die.

 

I think only one didn't feel like saving them, but knew that letting them die wouldn't look well on her as an elf (since people would point to the one Elven Warden who let a whole  village perish as "proof" that elves shouldn't be in authoritative positions), so decided to help them anyway for good PR.

 

Plus, all my characters (regardless of race) never really thought it prudent. We need to get into the castle, Teagan's the only one who can help us get into the castle, and he won't do so until he knows the village is safe. Only through meta knowledge do we know that Teagan definitely survives the assault and agrees to help us get into the castle anyway. In-game, my characters have no way of knowing if he'll survive the assault alone, or if he'll be pissed off enough to refuse to help them get into the castle because they refused to help the village.

 

Plus, I just don't have the stomach for it. (Guilt-based gaming gets me every time.)

[straykat]

Plus, I just don't have the stomach for it. (Guilt-based gaming gets me every time.)

 

That's the only difference I have with you. I'd play some of these things, but they don't deliver. So it even stinks for roleplaying (like I said, Redcliffe still looks the same in DAI). I even killed Leliana and commited a major sacrilege on their prophet on that playthrough, and Cass still wants this character or Hawke as another Inquisitor. It doesn't work. I don't care how openminded Cass is, she isn't retarded. At least in the elder scrolls, there isn't enough story where it matters if I play a psychopath or not.

[springacres]

Out of curiosity, how does your man being an elf have to do with Wynne disapproving of his love for Zevran?

It doesn't.  His reaction was to her constant moralizing at Zevran about his life as an assassin.  My M!Surana finally realized that there were a few things Wynne might not understand about what being an elf outside of the Circle actually meant.  He, on the other hand, lived in the Denerim Alienage till his magic manifested at age six, and his parents wrote him as regularly as circumstances allowed.

 

How did you guys deal with Redcliffe?

Saved it.  Even if none of my elves could be bothered to care any more about the human nobles than the nobles were likely to care about them, they weren't about to let the whole village die.  Even my Dalish recognized the stupidity of that.

[Bardox9]

How did you guys deal with Redcliffe?

With the exception of Dalish elf warden, I save the village. City and Mage Elf warden, IMO, wouldn't desire such a fate to befall any village. Human or not.

 

The Dalish elf though... it would seem like a deserved fate given all the kindness humans have shown to his people. "They never lift a sword in our defense. They would leave my clan to be slaughtered... Let the humans fight for themselves. I'll come back later and see if what's left is of any use."

[congokong]

Saved it.  Even if none of my elves could be bothered to care any more about the human nobles than the nobles were likely to care about them, they weren't about to let the whole village die.  Even my Dalish recognized the stupidity of that.

Don't be so quick to discount the humor of abandoning Redcliffe; especially with Alistair, Morrigan, and Zevran as your companions. Bullying children, stealing swords, demanding kisses from soon-to-be-dead women, asking where to shop from the busy militia, killing a stubborn blacksmith, killing a craven barkeep and taking ownership with free drinks for everyone, killing a Loghain spy, ignoring a final plea for help on your way out... It's an evil playthrough's paradise.

[Ghost Gal]

It doesn't.  His reaction was to her constant moralizing at Zevran about his life as an assassin.  My M!Surana finally realized that there were a few things Wynne might not understand about what being an elf outside of the Circle actually meant.  He, on the other hand, lived in the Denerim Alienage till his magic manifested at age six, and his parents wrote him as regularly as circumstances allowed.

 

Oh! Yeah, I see.

 

Yeah, in general I'm not a huge fan of companions judging Zevran for being an assassin, at least after it's revealed that he didn't have a choice. Depending on their background, it can come across as self-righteous and/or hypocritical. Like Wynne, the pampered human Circle mage who knows nothing of alienage elves' plight. Or Leliana, who judges him hardest for being an assassin despite how she was a bard. Not only that, but she joined that world voluntarily because she loved the thrill of the hunt and kill (even though she was living it up as a noblewoman's foster child), while Zevran had no choice joining since he was sold into slavery at age seven.

 

I know my City Elf Warden dropped all judgment when Zevran said, "We all do our share of murdering around here, do we not?" And she thought, "Well, my Call to Adventure involved slaughtering my way through an arl's palace to kill said arl's son for raping my cousin... Yeah, that's fair."

[springacres]

Oh! Yeah, I see.

 

Yeah, in general I'm not a huge fan of companions judging Zevran for being an assassin, at least after it's revealed that he didn't have a choice. Depending on their background, it can come across as self-righteous and/or hypocritical. Like Wynne, the pampered human Circle mage who knows nothing of alienage elves' plight. Or Leliana, who judges him hardest for being an assassin despite how she was a bard. Not only that, but she joined that world voluntarily because she loved the thrill of the hunt and kill (even though she was living it up as a noblewoman's foster child), while Zevran had no choice joining since he was sold into slavery at age seven.

 

I know my City Elf Warden dropped all judgment when Zevran said, "We all do our share of murdering around here, do we not?" And she thought, "Well, my Call to Adventure involved slaughtering my way through an arl's palace to kill said arl's son for raping my cousin... Yeah, that's fair."

Yeah, my canon Warden pretty much had the same reaction, since he'd just slaughtered his way through a tower full of abominations and blood mages to save the First Enchanter (and got an extra dose of satisfaction out of killing Uldred) so while he was a little disturbed by Zev's description of an assassin's work, he understood what Zev was getting at.

 

Back on topic, one of the reasons he recruited Zev in the first place was because of their common elven heritage.  He doesn't dislike humans, but prior to that, his only other non-human companions were a kossith and a dog.  At least in the Circle, he'd had other elves to talk to and commiserate with if necessary.

[Qun00]

A what, now? There are no kossith around.

[straykat]

I know my City Elf Warden dropped all judgment when Zevran said, "We all do our share of murdering around here, do we not?" And she thought, "Well, my Call to Adventure involved slaughtering my way through an arl's palace to kill said arl's son for raping my cousin... Yeah, that's fair."

 

I wish I had a line like that for my Dalish who killed those humans.. but there isn't one. All I can do is admit to being as bad.

[Ghost Gal]

Yeah, my canon Warden pretty much had the same reaction, since he'd just slaughtered his way through a tower full of abominations and blood mages to save the First Enchanter (and got an extra dose of satisfaction out of killing Uldred) so while he was a little disturbed by Zev's description of an assassin's work, he understood what Zev was getting at.

 

Yeah, I gotta admit Zevran's cheerful yet specific description of the assassin's line of work weirded even me out, and even my city elf had to raise an eyebrow at it. Thankfully Zevran's pretty good at explaining himself, and can make it sound pretty reasonable. Like how he points out how, as adventurers, they go around killing people all the time.

 

Zevran: "Surely you enjoy it a little?"

Warden: *thinks back to the time they got the drop on some bandits and "sprung their own trap for a change" and wiped them out*

Warden: "Yeah, sometimes it can be satisfying."

 

Zevran also mentions that he's not completely remorseless; one way he deals with knowing he's killed someone is figuring they must have done something to deserve it.

Warden: *thinks back to Vaughan and his cronies' crimes* *thinks back to the highwaymen robbing and killing those fleeing the darkspawn*

Warden: "Yeah, some do seem to ask for it."

 

Back on topic, one of the reasons he recruited Zev in the first place was because of their common elven heritage.  He doesn't dislike humans, but prior to that, his only other non-human companions were a kossith and a dog.  At least in the Circle, he'd had other elves to talk to and commiserate with if necessary.

 

Nice, my Surana spared him for a similar reason. Torn from her family, forced to live in a human Circle guarded by human Templars following the human religion, she felt disconnected from her people and culture. One of the reasons she spared him was because she found him simultaneously familiar and exotic; familiar because he's a fellow elf born and raised in human society like what little she remembers of her family, and exotic because he's (obviously) Antivan, a Crow, and well-traveled. Part of her felt getting closer to him would be symbolically getting closer to her people, and obviously getting to know someone so interesting, exotic, and exciting meant being closer to that interesting, exotic, and exciting wide open world she'd been locked away from in the Circle.

 

 

I wish I had a line like that for my Dalish who killed those humans.. but there isn't one. All I can do is admit to being as bad.

 

Oh yeah, there's no response like that in-game for a city elf. Not at all. That was just headcanon on my part.