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The Geth and the changes to their lore


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#51
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Question: how many people did the ME1 Rogue VI mission on the lunar base and how many of those same people support the Geth?

 

I did the mission on the moon. When I have the choice of peace between the Quarians and Geth I make peace. When I have no choice, I choose the Quarians. I'm playing a Commander or Lt. Commander in the Alliance Navy. My orders were to get the Quarian fleet for Admiral Hackett. He had a reason for wanting the Quarian fleet - logistical support for ground troops since a good portion of the Alliance Navy was destroyed in the initial Reaper attack. Geth ships simply aren't equipped for this. 

 

Plus, past experience - Geth aside from Legion had done nothing but shoot at us for the entire story. The Quarians hadn't except for that one time on the dreadnought, and it could also have been Admiral Xen on that dreadnought with you. So you have one peaceful Geth and one crazy Quarian. And Xen who doesn't think of the Geth as people, which is demonstrated that the individual platforms (pre-reaper code) are not when she reprograms a few that attacked her while she is waiting for you to finish doing your job. 

 

I find it really odd that Tali found Xen's experimenting on her childhood toys offensive. That was really over the top, Tali, and caused me to raise an eyebrow, not at Xen, but at you. 



#52
Vit246

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My question was more about how pro-geth are incensed at the Quarian reaction to Geth sentience but we have a side mission where we terminated a "malfunctioning" sentient synthetic with access to weapons systems that no longer responded to shutdown commands. I suspect we all did that mission without a second thought or regret. Were we unjustified? Am I wrong?



#53
Fayfel

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The reason geth lore changed so much is simply due to the fact that their writer stopped writing them. Chris L'Etoile wrote the entire ME1/2 codex and Legion in ME2 with one major exception. The Legion/Tali confrontation scene is not his work. Chris' version was cut for being far too long. If your interested in the general direction he wanted to take the geth here is a quote from him ( three and a half years after he left BioWare )

 

 

I agree that Reapers should require quite a bit more to bring them down. During ME2's production, I had a vision of an ME3 scene in which the quarians have to ram a Liveship into one to cripple or kill it. The only thing that would have saved the quarian fleet from destruction was the geth using a wormhole to jump in one of their great works - if not the actual Dyson Shell, then a Matrioska Brain. It throws back the Reapers by chucking black holes at them - biotic-style Singularities on a massive scale.

 

But if I may borrow the caveman analogy, what you're pointing out there seems to me less that our tech make equivalent units unbeatable, but that our tech allows new types of unit. The Reapers have no equivalent to armor and artillery in that analogy, and I think if you run a bunch of angry cavemen at one guy with an assault rifle and kevlar, he's going to take out a bunch before they reach him, but there's a good chance one is going to get up close and bash his head in with a rock.
 
Unfortunately, no ever really sat down and worked out the tech base of the Reapers. We just decided a few things they could do, and aside from that, it was "same as us, but better." Their most obvious advantage is in power generation and the size of their element zero cores. They can make crazy-powerful mass effect fields. Kinetic barriers you can't crack. High speed travel. They can cancel maneuvering stress and make high speed turns with a battleship that other races couldn't pull off with a frigate.
 
But there's another factor overlooked here - and they may have overlooked it in ME3. The Reapers control the mass relays. They knew when they were used, and when they wanted, they could lock them down or set them to misfire (as the Omega relay). I have to use an extended metaphor for this, so bear with me. Take World War I Europe, before the advent of air transportation. There were trucks to drive people around quickly, but most strategic troop movement and commerce was via train. Imagine someone invades Europe and somehow takes all their trains away The tracks are still there, and the invaders can use them, but the defenders have to make do with trucks like this. There aren't as many of them as they need, and they're not efficient for long hauls, because - hey, that's what we have trains for, right?
 
I thought what normally happens in a Reaper sweep is they lock down the mass relay network. They can focus their forces - few but immensely powerful - at will, while hobbling the mobility of their enemies. They can jump around enemy force concentrations, hit 'em where they ain't, and take out their forces once they're weakened by lack of supplies. It's Pacific War island-hopping on a massive scale - take out the important targets and leave the rest to "wither on the vine." I imagine that in this cycle they couldn't do that because they haven't managed to get control of the Citadel. At least that's how I'd have explained it - though if I were the Reapers, I'd also have had a backup system.
 
Oh, and W/R/T cleansing the entire galaxy, I've explained a bit of that before. For most races, they know where they are because they use the mass relays. Every time you activate a relay, it's like saying "Voldemort" or tapping a spider's web. You just told them exactly where you are. For races that don't use the relays, they just listen for them. You don't need to check every single planet or system. Just stop every 100-200 light years and listen for the electromagnetic signals that indicate technological life. Yes, that still takes a while, but they have machine patience and probably fleets of drones to help. Any race that doesn't emit technological signals... they don't care about them. Too primitive, no threat, not of interest.
 
First the Reapers destabilize the defenders by using Indoctrinated agents to set the biggest powers against each other before they arrive. Then shut down most interstellar mobility when they take an active hand. They don't really need to devote time and effort to making better guns. Things went badly awry this cycle. I think the greatest plot hole here isn't that the Reapers don't have sufficiently high tech, but that they didn't seem to have any backup plans.
 
This doesn't mean that no one ever escaped the Reapers - fled into space far from the relays, made as little EM noise as possible, pulled the blankets over their heads and hoped the monsters went away. As cironian points out, Indoctrination would get a bunch of those. But some would make it. I had a vague idea that the gas giant with structures in it from ME1 could be such a race. And in my opinion, that might make a good opening for Mass Effect 4 - an organized search to find the First Ones and get them to rejoin galactic society.

Only the first part is relevant to the topic, but I thought it was important to leave the rest in. Chris used to post stuff like this almost every other day on the old forums. The other writers did some damn good work here and there, but Chris was operating on an entirely different level.


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#54
gothpunkboy89

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@gothpunkboy89 - Cell phone in 1992 vs today's smart phone? You're really reaching. That's hyperbole. Ladar uses laser which is coherent light. What makes up laser doesn't change. How it's made just gets more efficient. Cops use ladar to detect your speed. Fighter aircraft and SAM batteries use ladar for targeting, so we came out with the "stealth fighter". There are other countermeasures for ladar. 

 

They used Ladar in the game because of "rule of cool." I'd bet they had no idea how it worked or the countermeasures already available. Someone heard the term and thought it sounded good. Hudson was big on rule of cool. 

 

It boils down to Xen had something that made the Quarian's space magic greater than the Geth's space magic. Then when the Quarians got to the Tikkun system, the reaper signal made the Geth's space magic greater again so that they were in a stalemate with the Quarians until YOU as Commander Shepard rode in on your white steed with your space magic to get rid of the reaper, play god and determine the fate of the two races. You video game hero!

 

It's all about  :wizard:

 

The plot was very badly written. 

 

 

 

No not really hyperbole at all. It is valid comparison between ME tech level and current modern tech level which you are basing everything else on.

 

Recently they were able to turn light into a solid (for lack of better term) state for a very short period of time. Granted it was only 2 photons were interacting together but that is altering how light interacts. Lasers are just very focused light beams. If we have the potential to change the fundamental structure of how light works we have the potential to change the fundamental structure of how lasers can work.  Granted the game came out before this little experiment happened.

 

LADAR or LIDAR uses ultraviolet, visible and/or near infrared light to created an image of an object. This is different from say a laser guided missile or a police speed radar.  Add on while most military would have the capacity to create ships who would naturally reflect some of these wave lengths. Normandy as good example combined with the stealth drive set up of retaining heat. Could easily hide from geth ships. Quarians how ever lack the time, ability and resources to rebuild their entire fleet from the ground up to take that into effect as nearly all their fleet are civilian ships.

 

How ever finding the correct frequencies and intensities needed to blind the geth sensors as well as creating it in a form that could easily be added to their lets face it near junk level fleet.  Would be seen as a massive thing. Much like what was it using Cherokee to send messages so the Axis couldn't unscramble them since they weren't actually encoded were small things that had large effects.

 

There is always an element of space magic in all Sci Fi. Star Trek it was subspace as reason for them to do everything. Star Wars they simply never bothered to explain it.  Halo it is slip space to allow them to travel faster then speed of light are able to freeze then unfreeze people over and over again for travel and flash clone organs from people.

 

You don't play god with the two races any more then you play god with the rest of the entire trilogy.  If you have issue with this part then you have issue with the series since game one. Shepard is the only one to learn about the Reapers and is the only one who can stop Sovereign from releasing them back into the galaxy.  Yea that totally isn't Jesusy is it.  Or Collectors are  kidnapping humans and only shepard brought back from the death can stop them and destroy them once and for all. 

 

They never fully explain everything in the game. But they aren't alone not very many explain very heavily into the technology involved in their series because that is when issues really start to crop up.  Yelling and bitching about it being space magic and thus badly written ignores that is the basis of every sci fi in the world.



#55
SuperJogi

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Recently they were able to turn light into a solid (for lack of better term) state for a very short period of time. Granted it was only 2 photons were interacting together but that is altering how light interacts.

 

Photon-Photon interaction which can create matter-antimatter pairs only occurs at energy densities far above what we're talking about here and has pretty much nothing to do with lasers, other than the fact that it's also photons.

 

Lasers are just very focused light beams

 

That's a gross oversimplification. Lasers are coherent beams of light, which means that the photons all have almost identical wavelengths and are all in the same phase. It is that fact which allows a laser beam to be that focused.

 

LADAR or LIDAR uses ultraviolet, visible and/or near infrared light to created an image of an object. This is different from say a laser guided missile or a police speed radar.

 

Not that much different at all. In both cases you use a laser to determine the distance of a point in space, just in one case you measure many different points and connect them to a picture.



#56
gothpunkboy89

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Photon-Photon interaction which can create matter-antimatter pairs only occurs at energy densities far above what we're talking about here and has pretty much nothing to do with lasers, other than the fact that it's also photons.

 

 

That's a gross oversimplification. Lasers are coherent beams of light, which means that the photons all have almost identical wavelengths and are all in the same phase. It is that fact which allows a laser beam to be that focused.

 

 

Not that much different at all. In both cases you use a laser to determine the distance of a point in space, just in one case you measure many different points and connect them to a picture.

 

Not really they used atoms of Rubium. Cooled it down in a vacuum chamber to -460F using lasers. Then fired a very weak laser into it. Then they fired 2 protons into the cloud and when they exited they acted like a single entity.  A very brief and minimal change. But still a rather fundamental change to how light partials actually act in the world.

 

Yes as I said focused light beams. Bounced back and forth (for lack of better term) from mirror to mirror to focus them to the same wave length and frequency before being released in a single tight beam.

 

But the rather important part is each of those have their own wave lengths and frequencies that can be used. LIADAR jamers only work because they know the wave length and frequency police scanners used.  Geth are capable of near instant reaction to changes. That is why they can't be hacked for more then a few seconds because they are able to react and take counter measures against it. Wave length and intensity can be changed and unless it is the same wave length with higher intensity it won't blind them. 

 

Something that could keep up with the changes the geth can make and match it action for action fast enough to keep the geth guessing would be a massive advancement.



#57
sH0tgUn jUliA

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The following from the wikia which is considered canon:

 

 

Admiral Xen's corps of research and development eventually create a means to cause massive white-noise jamming against the highly precise geth ladar scanning systems, giving the quarian fleet a major advantage in any attempt to wage war against the geth. Upon this revelation, the Admiralty votes to go to war, with Admiral Koris and possibly Tali dissenting (if she was exonerated in her trial and subsequently promoted to her father's vacant Admiral office). Xen leads the Special Projects group during the war.

 

Now, it is quite obvious given what Tali tells us about Quarian politics in ME1 that both Tali and Koris voted for the war. The Admiralty Board can overrule any decision made by the Conclave, and the decision must be unanimous. They can only do this once, and afterward the entire board must resign their posts. Then new admirals are chosen, but the Conclave must have given them a vote of confidence afterward. Why? Because we keep hearing that "the fleet didn't want this war." 

 

 

The Admiralty Board voted in favor of launching an assault to retake Rannoch, and the quarians began arming all of the ships in their Civilian Fleet.

 

This backs up the fact that both Tali and Koris voted for the war. The Reaper invasion must have been used to declare a state of emergency and martial law. 

 

The explanations in this thread still do not explain why the reaper signal would cause Xen's weapon to suddenly stop working since the term "white noise" when applied to light implies across the EM spectrum. It is essentially that the reaper imbued the Geth with more Space Magic  :wizard:  than the Quarians possessed until Shepard arrived. It was Rule of Cool and nothing more. Stop defending this. It is getting silly.

 

The Geth were not being hacked by Xen's countermeasure. They were being blinded.


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#58
SuperJogi

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Not really they used atoms of Rubium. Cooled it down in a vacuum chamber to -460F using lasers. Then fired a very weak laser into it. Then they fired 2 protons into the cloud and when they exited they acted like a single entity.  A very brief and minimal change. But still a rather fundamental change to how light partials actually act in the world.

 

I'm not exactly sure what expirement you are reffering too. Can you give me a reliable scientific source?
 

But the rather important part is each of those have their own wave lengths and frequencies that can be used. LIADAR jamers only work because they know the wave length and frequency police scanners used.  Geth are capable of near instant reaction to changes. That is why they can't be hacked for more then a few seconds because they are able to react and take counter measures against it. Wave length and intensity can be changed and unless it is the same wave length with higher intensity it won't blind them. 

 

Something that could keep up with the changes the geth can make and match it action for action fast enough to keep the geth guessing would be a massive advancement.

 

 

I already said that analizing the incoming beam would be trivial, just put some sensors on your ship. And as sH0tgUn jUliA pointed out, the term "whitenoise" implies that the output signal is across many different wavelengths, which means adjustment probably isn't even necessary.

And before you start saying that this is some completly new technology, the russians have mounted pretty much exactly this on their tanks since over 25 years.

It's called Shtora and it's not hard to spot:

 

T-90A_with_Shtora_lit.jpg
 

Anyway, I think this argument is now well and truly over.


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#59
Dantriges

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Kill the quarians over Rannoch, blow up the geth with Destroy, it´s an act of mercy, so they can rest in peace, after getting their story/lore etc twisted so often.



#60
Alice112

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My theory is that in the process of destroying Geth platforms during the Morning War, the Quarians were doing just what they were trying not to do. They were accelerating the evolution of the Geth.