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[kal_reegar]

I quote from wiki

 

BioWare described Dragon Age: Origins as a "dark heroic fantasy" set in a unique world. Its setting was inspired by The Lord of the Rings and A Song of Ice & Fire, and was described by BioWare as a mix between high fantasy and low fantasy. 

 

I think that this definition was correct. Magical and fantastical element were very present, but not preponderant. They were a main feature/characteristic of Thedas, but they were also mixed with other (and more "realistic") elements.

The LORE was (IMO) very well balanced, from this point of view.

 

The same can be said for Dragon Age 2 and Dragon Age Inquisition, even if new magical elements were introduced (like time magic: very dangerous, bioware, very dangerous. Plot holes and paradoxes are almost impossible to avoid, if you decide to carry on).

 

But with the DLC of DA: Inquisition (especially Trespasser and Descent), something changes... I had the feeling to be playing in another world, in another Lore. There has been an exponential growth of the magical/fantastical elements, and none of them was insignificant... the titans, the lyrium revelations, the wellspring, the lyrium dwarves, the titan's magic, the veil and it's creation (and destruction), the imprisoned (elven) gods, tons of eluvian, the crossroads, new demi-gods etc...

 

 

Do you have the same "WTF" feeling? If yes, can it be attribute to the transition from Gaider to Weekes?

Do you think that is a wise/good decision to considerably increase the relevance and the number of magical/fantastical elements?

 

 

 

[Gervaise]

I don't think it has anything to do with the change in lead writer.   Whilst some elements may have been a recent invention, really with a world on this scale some of that new lore had to be there in the background but we just didn't know about it.   For example, it always seemed odd to me how Tevinter so easily defeated the elven empire; either the elves were never that powerful to begin with or something else was involved.   Now it turns out that the latter is the case.    Corypheus was introduced back in Legacy and it was obvious he had survived the encounter with Hawke, which raised a lot of questions concerning why he was there in the first place and how he jumped to the warden and survived, when it kills an archdemon.   Red lyrium was also introduced in DA2 and Meredith bouncing round the battle field and bringing statues to life was very much high fantasy.

 

However, some things were introduced into DAI itself which created problems.   The time magic element was the most glaring one.   Think about it too hard and it didn't make a lot of sense.   It really seemed to me like a writer wish fulfilment tribute to Doctor Who, allowing Dorian to be awesome in the role of the doctor.   Given everything we had previously been told about the limitations on magic, it didn't belong in the setting.   They also introduced the power of flight by magic in the novel the Last Flight, which was something else we had previously been told was not possible in this world.   Not to mention Corypheus' levitation trick with the Temple of Sacred Ashes.

 

Now we have a situation with Solas where he has increased his power tremendously to the point where you wonder how exactly you are meant to deal with him.  Not only that but the revelations about his actions in raising the Veil do raise very big questions about the existence of the Maker, which were told would never be answered.  Since the elven legends have been proved pretty accurate in recounting their history, apart from the degree of blame attributed to humans, where does that leave Andraste and the Chant?   Nevertheless, this is not something new, since the elven legends were there back in DAO.   Which is why I assume this is always where it was headed.   The original setting was where magic had been suppressed for millennia and so seemed less fantastical as a result, but now the old powers are coming to life once more.

 

So probably veering a bit more towards high fantasy Lord of the Rings and a bit less of low fantasy Song of Fire and Ice.   It is possible though that the next game will all but ignore the Solas problem, at least initially, and focus on the more mundane war between the Qun and Tevinter, thus redressing the balance once more.

[straykat]

 

 

So probably veering a bit more towards high fantasy Lord of the Rings and a bit less of low fantasy Song of Fire and Ice.   It is possible though that the next game will all but ignore the Solas problem, at least initially, and focus on the more mundane war between the Qun and Tevinter, thus redressing the balance once more.

 

I don't want them to necessarily ignore Solas, but I would happily welcome more politics. I just want to play a city elf again, personally. But to get into the lower social status. Not more elfy stuff. I'll play a lower class human too, if I'm allowed. It's one thing that made Hawke fun.

 

I think DAI already was high fantasy before any of this.. just because the formula was about a "dark lord" taking over the world, and ancient relics, and a mysterious hero. It's Campbellian schlock all over again. I expected a game about..... an Inquisition, and a hero with more personal context to it. And more mage/templar stuff.

[kann.nix9mm]

Dragon Age has from the get go been a type of heroic high fantasy with some dark fantasy here and there.

The thing is there are no clear lines what type of fantasy something is. I would argue that DA even is a little bit hard fantasy because in itself it is very consistent. The DLCs like Trespasser don't introduce DA to a new sub-genre of fantasy, it only reinforced those which had already been there in the first place. So I can't say I had this WTF moment.

[straykat]

Dragon Age has from the get go been a type of heroic high fantasy with some dark fantasy here and there.

The thing is there are no clear lines what type of fantasy something is. I would argue that DA even is a little bit hard fantasy because in itself it is very consistent. The DLCs like Trespasser don't introduce DA to a new sub-genre of fantasy, it only reinforced those which had already been there in the first place. So I can't say I had this WTF moment.

 

I think DA2 confused matters. It's not very high fantasy at all. And while DAO is similar to this, at least it had Loghain.

[In Exile]

You must realize that ASOIAF also becomes more and more high fantasy as time passes and the old beings return, no? You're not wrong, but the quote you use is still accurate.

[kal_reegar]

 

 

You must realize that ASOIAF also becomes more and more high fantasy as time passes and the old beings return, no? You're not wrong, but the quote you use is still accurate. 

 

 

Yes, but the most magical/powerful/WTF thing/beings (the Others) are at least comparable to the darkspawn horde. And they were introduced in the very first chapter.

 

In DA there is (IMO) quite an escalation.

 

I mean, what is the most powerful magic in DA:O? Uthred/Connors possession? Warewolves curse? Maybe the Dark ritual? The sacred ashes? The blight maybe?

And the most powerful being, the Archdemon... what can it realy do? Yes, he is a strong high dragon leading a powerful army of horrible darkspawn.... and they both can be destroyed in battle with "ordinary" GW (it has been done 5 times). 

 

 

In DA: Inquisition, what is the most powerful magic? Time magic (something that could destroy the fabric of the world), the rift (that could swallow the world), we heard about the possibility of creatiing/destructing of they veil (with annexe super-cataclysm )

And the most powerful beings? Solas, a mage that single handed destroy an entire civilization and reshaped the very core of reality. Maybe the Elven Gods (whose power could be equal - or superior - ).

 

 

Regarding magic, I see a qualitative (and not only quantitative, like ASOIAF) "level up"

[Seraphim24]

Dragon Age 2 was really not High Fantasy at all.

 

The idea of Dragon Age in general was positioned between GoT starched fantasy and Tolkien High Fantasy does sort of kind of make sense to me on some level though................... Game of Thrones is pretty magical and given the drowning out of magical elements in Dragon Age... don't know... you might be able to argue Game of Thrones is more high fantasy than Dragon Age actually. I haven't really thought about it a lot though.

 

I've never bought DLC and well there are a few other gaps as far as that goes, but 1 and 2 are trending massively down.

[myahele]

I think it's just the "mysteries" of the world are slowly being revealed/ answered.

 

Back in DA:O the main focus was just Darkspawn/ Archdemon.

 

All we knew of the world then was that it was very magic-centered with Tevinter as the ruling Empire and Elvhen before them.

[Seraphim24]

I think it's just the "mysteries" of the world are slowly being revealed/ answered.

 

Back in DA:O the main focus was just Darkspawn/ Archdemon.

 

All we knew of the world then was that it was very magic-centered with Tevinter as the ruling Empire and Elvhen before them.

 

That's kind of debatable though, we simply know that Elvhen existed, had powerful magic, and they came into conflict with Tevinter, but the scope or scale of their world relative to the rest of the world at the time isn't really known.

[kal_reegar]

 

 

you might be able to argue Game of Thrones is more high fantasy than Dragon Age actually.

 

in GOT, very rarely the magic/supernatural elements  have a relevant impact on the story. There are exceptions, of course, but they are few.

You can delete almost all the magial stuff in GOT, and nothing substantial would really change.

 

George RR Martin said: "The other factor is, this is a fantasy series, and there is magic in my world. Magic is something that I think requires handling very delicately. You can easily make a mistake with magic. It's like a little salt in a stew, I think. You put in a little salt, the stew tastes a lot better. You put in too much salt and ruin the stew. So I try to be very careful with magic."

 

 

The same cannot be said about DA, IMO.

Don't get me wrong: a fantasy world with a lot of (decisive/relevant) magic involved is ok. I'm only saying that the DA world used to have less magic and, above all, less powerful/potentially devastating magic.

[AlanC9]

Yeah, I can see it. The events of DA:O and DA2 were, in a sense, routine for Thedas. DA:O was about a standard Blight which happened to touch off a local political crisis. DA2 was about a political crisis which happened to get infected with red lyrium and blood magic.

DA:I's events were not routine.

[kal_reegar]

 

 

I think it's just the "mysteries" of the world are slowly being revealed/ answered.

 

and the answer is always "the explanations behind ____________ is a great, ancient, superpowerful magic".

 

It's something cheap, if abused.

[Seraphim24]

DA2 was about a political crisis which happened to get infected with red lyrium and blood magic.

 

No. Meredith was pretty much dead set on annihilating mages, or rather, the conflict was inevitable due to non-magic reasons. The only effect Red Lyrium and Blood Magic had on DA2 was that she was bright as a red cherry when you fought her.

 

But then again, it seems your point was just to say that Inquisition was a jump into High Fantasy, or at least the DLC. I guess that theory is then, Did Dragon Age suddenly become high fantasy?

 

I suppose I myself am limited on that point, not least because I have never gotten DLC and don't plan to start now..

[Tidus]

Truth be told all RPGs are fantasy and the DA  series is no different then my rather large collection of RPGs that amounts to walking through different areas killing baddies as we do various quest in order to get to the big boss at the end.

 

With that said.. DA:2 and DA:I deals more with unrest then the more normal  kill the big boss monster in the end in order to save all mankind.DA:O deals with politics and a big old dragon at the end.

[thats1evildude]

DAI showed that Dragon Age used to be a High Fantasy setting with some Dark Fantasy elements that was changed irrevocably into a Dark Fantasy setting with some High Fantasy elements. The lingering remnants of that old world are starting to come back, however, and the new world is desperately fighting to survive as those vestiges try to bring the old world back.

[Dabrikishaw]

I've always said the Dragon Age: Origins was High Fantasy with a side order of rape. Dragon Age ][ was Low Fantasy as all get out though.

[Nimlowyn]

I don't have this WTF feeling, personally. A great deal of the lore was planned out in the world building stage, by Gaider. Eleni Zinovia's prophecy back in DAO points to things that are happening now. As is Sandal's prophecy in DA2. Also, while Weekes is writing Solas, his concept and over arching narrative was developed by Gaider.  

 

The world is slowly being revealed, and I'm excited. 

[Medhia_Nox]

Yes, and they're losing me because of it.

 

It's not having magical elements that makes something "blatantly" high fantasy... it's the level to which magic is always utilized, and moreso how much it is a solution.

 

DA:2 starts it

 

- Meredith Super Saiyan

- Fenris Lyrium Super Soldier (lesser extent)

- impossible teleporting magic that's actually illusion

 

But DA:I just goes mad with it

 

- The Breach

- The Orb

- spirits... Spirits... SPIRITS EVERYWHERE!

- impossible time magic that's now possible

- and, of course, Solas... the character that makes Meredith Super Saiyan look tame.

 

Some of the magical elements are well implemented:

 

- Golems

- Fenris (it's not the lyrium powers - it's how they're presented I think I have an issue with.  The lyrium valaslin are cool in my opinion.)

- The Broken Circle - excellent use of DA's magical elements.

-  Titans.  They're not "usuable" - they're dangerous and mysterious and powerful.  This is good implementation.  Now... if in DA 4 we're taking control of a Titan and riding it to victory against Solas... yeah... horrible. 

 

 

It's also what they DON'T do anymore:

 

-  Where did the abominations go?  The WORST part of DA:I.  All these disoriented demons in pain... and a million mages in distress... and not a single abomination.  What?

 

- Threat of possession.  Now every mage is just SO strong and prepped and not worried. 

 

- Blood magic.  I loathe blood magic... it's the worst part of DA lore in my opinion... and yet, I feel like all the use of magic WITHOUT blood magic being involved... somehow makes it more high fantasy.

 

- Spirits and Demons being rare and dangerous.  Yeah... DA:I basically made spirits/demons canon fodder like your basic darkspawn... lame. 

 

NOTE:  I actually really enjoy DA:I.  But the direction is NOT where I want 4 to go.

[In Exile]

Yes, but the most magical/powerful/WTF thing/beings (the Others) are at least comparable to the darkspawn horde. And they were introduced in the very first chapter.

 

The children of the forest were not "revealed", and it's literally confirmed that magic is growing stronger as time goes on. We are told things - later confirmed - that are absurd re: what the ancient Valyrians did and the children of the forest did to the first men. If we take all of that for granted, then ASOIAF is high fantasy from day one, and everyone just really sucks at magic. 

 

I mean, what is the most powerful magic in DA:O? Uthred/Connors possession? Warewolves curse? Maybe the Dark ritual? The sacred ashes? The blight maybe?

And the most powerful being, the Archdemon... what can it realy do? Yes, he is a strong high dragon leading a powerful army of horrible darkspawn.... and they both can be destroyed in battle with "ordinary" GW (it has been done 5 times). 

 

Flemeth, the ostensible elven goddess (just because we don't know about her doesn't mean she's not always meant to be Mythal). Or the Achdemon, the ostensible god. More to the point, Solas can most certainly be killed, even at the height of his power. We know this, because Mythal was killed. 

 

In DA: Inquisition, what is the most powerful magic? Time magic (something that could destroy the fabric of the world), the rift (that could swallow the world), we heard about the possibility of creatiing/destructing of they veil (with annexe super-cataclysm )

And the most powerful beings? Solas, a mage that single handed destroy an entire civilization and reshaped the very core of reality. Maybe the Elven Gods (whose power could be equal - or superior - ).

 

Everything we see in DA:I that's "new" magic wise has one source: Solas. "Time" magic is a product of the rift, which is a product of the Anchor, which is a product of the orb Solas wields that his the source of his power. Same with the rift. 

 

The Solas we meet for most of the game is as much a wisp of himself as Flemeth.

[In Exile]

in GOT, very rarely the magic/supernatural elements  have a relevant impact on the story. There are exceptions, of course, but they are few.

You can delete almost all the magial stuff in GOT, and nothing substantial would really change.

 

George RR Martin said: "The other factor is, this is a fantasy series, and there is magic in my world. Magic is something that I think requires handling very delicately. You can easily make a mistake with magic. It's like a little salt in a stew, I think. You put in a little salt, the stew tastes a lot better. You put in too much salt and ruin the stew. So I try to be very careful with magic."

 

 

The same cannot be said about DA, IMO.

Don't get me wrong: a fantasy world with a lot of (decisive/relevant) magic involved is ok. I'm only saying that the DA world used to have less magic and, above all, less powerful/potentially devastating magic.

 

You misunderstand the quote. GRRM isn't saying his world won't have what you consider "high fantasy" magic. He's talking about his general view that for magic to be "magical", it has to be akin to what Gandalf does, not what a random mage does in D&D. Tolkien's work is the prototype for "high" fantasy and we don't see anything that even comes close to the kind of "mundane" magic we see in DA:O as a matter of course. 

 

You remove the magical stuff, and GoT doesn't work. It's about the magic. Every single major POV character is inexorably bound to magic. 

[AlanC9]

No. Meredith was pretty much dead set on annihilating mages, or rather, the conflict was inevitable due to non-magic reasons. The only effect Red Lyrium and Blood Magic had on DA2 was that she was bright as a red cherry when you fought her.

Yeah, that was kind of my point. The political crisis comes first, and the red lyrium only made the outcome a bit worse than it otherwise would have been. Or maybe even better, since Meredith might have retained some credibility -- after all, Orsino really was involved with crazy murderous blood mage necromancers.
 

I suppose I myself am limited on that point, not least because I have never gotten DLC and don't plan to start now..

You really should puck up Trespasser, at least.

[kal_reegar]

 

 

Flemeth, the ostensible elven goddess (just because we don't know about her doesn't mean she's not always meant to be Mythal). Or the Achdemon, the ostensible god. More to the point, Solas can most certainly be killed, even at the height of his power. We know this, because Mythal was killed. 

 

you're thinking retroactively. Flemeth was a powerful shapeshifter and sorceress. She can be killed by the Warden, Oghern, Sten and Zevran with blades and nothing else.

 

But the point is not if Solas can be killed or not, the point is how much magic crap is needed to achive that.

For the archdemon, very little: a simple ritual performed after 5 hours.

 

 

 

 

he children of the forest were not "revealed", and it's literally confirmed that magic is growing stronger as time goes on. We are told things - later confirmed - that are absurd re: what the ancient Valyrians did and the children of the forest did to the first men. If we take all of that for granted, then ASOIAF is high fantasy from day one, and everyone just really sucks at magic. 

 

the children of the forest were introduced very early. You don't know they are still alive somewhere until ADWD, but you are well aware of their existence.

they are powerful? I don't think so. They're hinding in a hobbit hole under the snow. Have they shown powerful magic that influence the story? Not yet.

They valyrian are gone, and the first man too. Their magic is gone.

 

Yes, magic is returning, but it's still contained. GRRM said so. A little salt, a little spice, nothing more.

 

In the DA Lore magic is far more important and decisive.

 

 

 

Everything we see in DA:I that's "new" magic wise has one source: Solas. "Time" magic is a product of the rift, which is a product of the Anchor, which is a product of the orb Solas wields that his the source of his power. Same with the rift. 

 

The Solas we meet for most of the game is as much a wisp of himself as Flemeth.

 

what can be done by one mage, can be replicate by another. It usually works this way: a new type of magic is introduced in the lore, and suddenly it's everywhere (like red lyrium).

 

Solas/Fen Harel magic could be unique? I hope so.

[SwobyJ]

DAI is relatively more high fantasy but:

 

1)Its a direction set from the start. Really.

2)The 'high' fantasy of DAI has another aspect of it that can almost be qualified as 'scientific'. There is a great 'technology' at play ('artifacts', realms of existence) that make it, at times, approach 'sci-fi' more than ever previously.

 

And there's still a ton of low fantasy present.

 

Each game will have some shifts in tone. For all we know, DA4 will be 'low' again, even if in a different way than say DA2.

[kal_reegar]

 

You misunderstand the quote. GRRM isn't saying his world won't have what you consider "high fantasy" magic. He's talking about his general view that for magic to be "magical", it has to be akin to what Gandalf does, not what a random mage does in D&D. Tolkien's work is the prototype for "high" fantasy and we don't see anything that even comes close to the kind of "mundane" magic we see in DA:O as a matter of course. 

 

You remove the magical stuff, and GoT doesn't work. It's about the magic. Every single major POV character is inexorably bound to magic. 

 

 

mmm no, there is nothing to interpret or understand.

 

ASOIAF is fantasy, so some amount of magic is needed (or it would be nothing more than a bernard cornwell novel).

 

 

but magic need to be contained, and carefully used. It should never became decisive (deus ex machina etc.) or pivotal.

 

 

As you say, you’re writing fantasy, you could give this story any sort of history that you wanted. Is there something that you gain from borrowing from the template of something we’ve seen in the real world, in our actual history, and using that in this world?

I think you gain a level of, I don’t know, realism. You’re not going to be careful in fantasy because it can easily pull apart. Magic is a particular — I mean, my fantasy is quite low magic compared to the majority of it out there. And in that sense, I was following Tolkien’s footsteps because if you actually look at Lord of the Rings as I did when I was writing this, [Middle Earth is] a very magical world in a sense, it’s a world of wonders and marvels and so forth, but there’s very little onstage magic. You know? You never see Gandalf doing a spell or, or creating throwing fireballs. You know, if there’s a fight, he draws a sword. You know? He does fireworks… his staff will glow. Minor stuff. Even the magic rings, I mean, the big powerful one ring, all we ever see it do is make people invisible.

You know, it’s not you know, it’s supposed to have these great powers for domination, but it’s not like Frodo can put it on and tell the Nazgul what to do. You know it doesn’t work that simply. It’s unknowable, it’s mysterious. And that kind of magic I think is good. One mistake I see over time in bad fantasy is they go for the high magic world. They have really powerful wizards and witches and warlocks who can destroy entire armies–and they still have entire armies! No, you got that A equals B here. If you’ve got one guy who can go, booga-booga, and your 10,000 men army is all dead, you’re not going to get together 10,000 men!

 

 

 

 

for the complete interview

http://entertainment...sy-and-history/