114 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Because the Renaissance advanced society out of the medieval times, thus this makes Inquisition seem more modern than Origins.

Sure. I guess this means that I have no idea what you mean when you say "grounded," then.

[Addictress]

I just read the last page of Dragon Age Asunder and my face melted off D: ommmmgg COLE

so good

[MichaelN7]

I honestly like the direction that Dragon Age is going in, regarding the overarching story and lore.

WARNING: long post, so if you don't like to read, then why are you here?

 

Dragon Age: Origins = traditional "fantasy"

 

You have the "ancient evil" (darkspawn), the "legendary warriors" (Grey Wardens), a kingdom (Fereldan), a mysterious woman (Flemeth), the list goes on.

In a way, it's a bit like KOTOR, in that it plays out like a Star Wars film; and here, Origins plays out like a Lord of the Rings, the plot elements are clear as to what they are, and that is a good thing for this story.

 

It deals with themes of good vs evil; and it asks the question: "How much evil are you willing to do for the sake of the greater good?"  It does an excellent job of showing black and white morality, but also presenting how it muddles into grey.

I feel the message it gives is that one person can make a difference, regardless of who they are or where they came from.

The ending is generally happy: Blight is defeated, potentially everyone survives, peace is back, etc.

 

 

DRAGON AGE 2 = zero-to-hero

 

A vast departure from the epic scale that is Origins.  If Origins had you play the part of recruiter, then Dragon Age 2 has you play the part of traffic officer.

You're stuck in the middle of multiple groups/individuals who all want to go in different directions, and you're just trying to get everyone safely home and protect your family.

 

It deals with themes of family, destiny, and asks the question: "What is destiny? Is it something seized, or thrust upon?"

 

Fault the game if you will, but I feel the "family" aspect was spot-on.

The ending is very sad.  No matter what you do or how hard you try, Hawke fails to keep Kirkwall from falling apart.  It's also quite possible for Hawke to be the last surviving member of his/her family.

 

 

Dragon Age: Inquisition = right/wrong person at the right/wrong time

 

This is where it really comes to a head.  Many of the mysteries of Thedas are being brought to light, and it turns many accepted beliefs on their heads:

The fact that physically entering the Fade is not only possible beyond happenstance, but that there exists methods to deliberately do so.

It wasn't Andraste who saved you from the Fade initially, but was it really Divine Justinia?  Perhaps it WAS actually Andraste and she just didn't want to advertise it?

Titans are real, and dwarves have some connection to them, enough to enable them to use magic, something previously thought impossible.

And the biggest one of all:

Elves

Arlathan was real, the Veil is an artificial construct, and the Elven Pantheon were real people.  Very powerful, magical people, but nevertheless not actual gods and certainly not myth.

Solas is considered the elven "devil", and plans to restore the world to what it was in his time, effectively destroying the current one.

 

It simply asks about faith.  "What do you believe in?"  "Were you sent by the Maker?"  "Is the Maker even real?"

 

Many established truths are being questioned and the mysteries are being revealed, since that is the ultimate fate of every mystery; it will eventually no longer be a mystery.

 

It seems the only mystery related to faith that didn't have any major event was about the Maker himself.

If the Elven Pantheon was real, does that mean he is real too?  Was he just a very powerful mage?  A spirit?

 

-------------

 

Call me crazy, but during Trespasser when you're in the Shattered Library, there a few codex entries that, to me, sound like the view of someone from "outside", like a tourist.

 

One in particular, called "Vir Dirthara: Homecoming" is as follows:

 

The pages of this book—memory?—describe an elf approaching a city of glass spires so deeply blue they ache. The city's outskirts are wrapped in lakes of mist, and figures stroll along the pearly, glowing strips as if they walked on solid ground. Groves of trees woven into enormous parks shelter elves in quiet hollows, while other elves walk below a river churning along an invisible shoal in the air.

The scene hums with quiet talk and contentment as the memory's maker reaches the city's gates, already thrown open wide.

emphasis added

 

Did anyone else see that when/if the found it?

BioWare is notorious for putting in tidbits like that, stuff that many never notice until it all comes together.

It mentions an elf in the memory, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the elf approaching the city and the person who wrote this entry are one and the same.

 

In fact, it constantly mentions "elves" as a designation, instead of just saying "people".

The timeline of Thedas shows that Arlathan in all it's glory and humans DO overlap, so I find it entirely possible, even if unlikely, that the person who wrote that passage was not only human but the very person we know of as the Maker.

I could be totally wrong, and if for whatever reason my theory is debunked by canon or the equivalent, I'll be the first to admit it.

Until then, this is my theory and I'm sticking by it.

 

-------------

 

Long story short (too late) I like the lore of Dragon Age, and I have faith that the mysteries therein will eventually come to light.

[Seraphim24]

I don't see your point there. This is from DAO. It doesn't get less high fantasy than this.

 

BRB heading into magical dream realm in the Circle Tower, a realm that was magically entered by magisters of the past, in the land that a future game will take place in. Then I'm going to fight the animated trees and change werewolves to elves.

 

I tend to think DA is pretty high fantasy but just takes lessons from lower fantasy in its characterization. People trying to handle a situation and setting that either is, or is being revealed to be more high fantasy than their liking.

 

I would use  GRRMs commentary on LOTR as the point to impale the veneer of Dragon Age of High Fantasy, the spells and magic are kind of overdosed and so it begins to feel more like just fantastical than high fantasy.

 

The fade tends to have little influence in reality, as I said before, it's arguably just a big manifestation of ordinary dreams and nightmares in the end. Substantively, in physical reality, it doesn't mean a ton outside of all the window dressing.

[Seraphim24]

DRAGON AGE 2 = zero-to-hero

 

A vast departure from the epic scale that is Origins.  If Origins had you play the part of recruiter, then Dragon Age 2 has you play the part of traffic officer.

You're stuck in the middle of multiple groups/individuals who all want to go in different directions, and you're just trying to get everyone safely home and protect your family.

 

It deals with themes of family, destiny, and asks the question: "What is destiny? Is it something seized, or thrust upon?"

 

Fault the game if you will, but I feel the "family" aspect was spot-on.

The ending is very sad.  No matter what you do or how hard you try, Hawke fails to keep Kirkwall from falling apart.  It's also quite possible for Hawke to be the last surviving member of his/her family.

 

Yeah Dragon Age 2 was almost more of an extreme soap opera tinted Halloween episode of "Friends" than either low or high fantasy really.

[Master Warder Z_]

 For example, it always seemed odd to me

 

I think your giving flavor text too much thought friend.

[Seraphim24]

I don't call it high fantasy i call it an exaggeration and an abuse of magic.

 

 

Yeah basically this is what I was looking for... I mean... my sense is GRRM would lump Dragon Age 1 into that category, someone should send him a copy.

 

Dragon Age 1 isn't unmagical though, it does have quite a bit of magic, a lot of it falls into that fantastical category, some of it like in the Redcliffe sequence.

 

However, Magic of great power tends to require an incredible amount of resources, lyrium, numbers, etc. Most of the excess magic is due to practicalities of the game world and not having you necessarily rest over and over. Moreover, the results tend to be more imprecise.

 

Blood magic and other forms of magic often lead to a kind of taintedness, destabilization, etc, sort of like the saidin concept in Wheel of Time.

[Seraphim24]

Ok I'm not going to beat around this topic.

 

Personally, I see magic in either a Tolkien or an LOTR sense as a pretty weighty substance, I'm not an elitist but magic in both those series is highly specific, exacting, often subtle, thing that tends to explode and have a great impact. Stannis defeated Renly's entire army with magic and reshaped the landscape, even in GOT it's not a small thing. It's certainly even greater in LOTR, but those uses of magic were kind of regimented. As someone pointed out, in the Silmarillion magic is overflowing, worlds and lands and great conflicts are fired back and forth.

 

Magic in most games might look fantastical or intense but it frequently isn't, if someone casts a fireball it looks pretty scary and may be scary, but it often just isn't very intense. In all the Dragon Age games/content I've played, magic shows up and is quite potent, but it usually doesn't shape or transform the world, or have tremendous strategic significance necessarily.

 

For that reason, Dragon Age seems relatively unmagical, despite the flashiness I guess.

[VorexRyder]

I find that the information on pre-Veil Thedas and how it differs from modern Thedas reminds me a great deal of the Silmarillion and the contrast with LOTR.

[Seraphim24]

I find that the information on pre-Veil Thedas and how it differs from modern Thedas reminds me a great deal of the Silmarillion and the contrast with LOTR.

 

LOTR doesn't contrast as heavily with Silmarillion as pre-Veil Thedas and Modern Thedas, for starters IMO.

[Dai Grepher]

I feel compelled to point out that DAO was not actually medieval in its aesthetic. It was a pastiche of a lot of different periods.

And it wasn't particularly gritty. It had one story about rape: the CE origin. And it had one very well done story about body horror: the deep roads. DAI actually copies all of the body horror of DAO with red lyrium. It just doesn't do a good job of showing it.

What DAI doesn't do well is show things visually, because it's very static. But it's about as tonically dark as DAO, which is to say "not very".

I'm not sure I agree with the music. What tracks do you have in mind?

 

 Internet Exploder ate my post. So I'll have to make this short.

 

I was referring to the human towns. Clearly the dwarven and elven parts were not medieval.

 

I meant gritty in appearance. But as far as storyline, Origins had dark plots, more so than Inquisition. Killing Connor, letting Kitty possess Amilia, encouraging what's her name to leave her baby in the Deep Roads, sacrificing city elves, etc.

 

Agreed that DA:I doesn't show off horror well enough. I blame the gameplay. Design played some part. Like the fact you don't meet Denam in the same path where he becomes a Behemoth. Carroll is a better example since we met him in Origins, and see his fate in Inquisition. But no, Origins was much darker than Inquisition.

 

[Disgusted noise] I had this long explanation typed out.

 

Basically, compare Trevor Morris to Inon Zur. Theatrical symphony orchestra vs. big band (in my opinion). Vocals powering the song and sound effects vs. vocals accenting the song and sticking to instrumentals.

 

Compare themes. Inquisition = upbeat, uplifting, inspirational. Fits game events. Origins = emotional, tense, epic. Fits game events.

 

Compare tracks. Samson's Tale, The Dawn Will Come (Atmospheric versions for both) vs. Lothering, Redcliffe Village.

 

Empress of Fire (Atmospheric, or Orlais Theme) vs. Human Nobility. Waltz of exuberant pomp and audacious majesty vs. serenade of sad knowing and humble regality.

 

Final battle themes. Inquisition (Corypheus theme), dun dun-dun dun daah... awe inspiring. Origins (Archdemon theme), duuuun dun dun duuuuuuun, ominous.

 

Note middle eastern sound to Trevor Morris' tracks for Western Approach, in Hushed Whispers, Alexius, and Adamant. Gives off vibe of mysticism. Pictures flying carpets, snake charmers, fortune tellers, fire eaters, sword swallowers, magic lamp and genie, which is right up Tevinter's alley really. This compared to Inon Zur's tracks of Chantry's Hubris, Ostagar, Join the Grey Wardens, Arl Eamon's Estate, Coronation. Gives off vibe of hard times in a hard life. Pictures ragged furs, beggars, bandits, campfires, soldiers, noble lords.

 

Not saying this is bad. The music fits their games. Inquisition main theme, start in a place of uncertainty and doubt, rise to glory and inspire all. Origins main theme, start in a decent place, plunge into tragic circumstances, fight your way out of it and to the hardest most epic battle of your life.

 

Also not saying this skews the games toward either end of the spectrum. It merely adds to each game's pre-established themes.

[Dai Grepher]

 

DAI feel more magical than DAO was,not only because there are 3 supposed god into it (Flemeth,Solas,The elder one) but also because the protagonist is intrinsically tied with magic and there are several dragons,they aren't anymore this rare creatures.

Flemeth wasn't to any player a goddess just an abomination/dragon who used to have immortality because kidnapped young girls or her daughters.

Now she is a an uber legend mage worshipped as a god by immortal elves and her extensive knowledge is the product of only jesus know how many servants of her who dedicated to her their life.

In DAO there is no one comparable to Abelas,Solas,the titan in descent,the nightmare demon,at best we had the archdemon and wasn't so formidable,at least no more than an high dragon(the one of the temple was even more powerful) .

All those are magical beings far above the one in DAO.

 

Solas can be considered as such Irl,just like the greek gods were considered as gods.

 

 

The mark made things more magical, yes. This is also partly why I picked a mage for Inquisition.

 

I'm fine with more dragons, but they didn't seem as vicious as the ones in DA:O.

 

Flemeth is still what she was in Origins. Just now we have a name for her extra spirit. I had always speculated that she was the Formless One. But most fans theorized that she was a spirit of some sort. She actually turned out to be less than a spirit. She only carried a fragment. Flemeth still isn't a goddess, and neither is Mythal.

 

Sure there is...

 

Spoiler

The Hero of Ferelden.

 

Abelas is a pushover, actually. Morrigan can knife him easily. I would say the elven knights in Cadash (Witch Hunt) are comparable to Abelas, and were much stronger than he is. The Titan is comparable to the old gods or the archdemon. The Nightmare is comparable to Gaxkang The Unbound. The only real standout is Solas, but we haven't really seen his powers or abilities yet. His petrification ability might be exclusive to Qunari for all we know. Other than that, he is formidable because he is so knowledgeable of ancient magic. The Baroness was pretty powerful for just being a human mage, and a lot of that was on accident. There could easily be more advanced mages elsewhere in the world who have advanced their skills to that of Solas' current level. Avernus for example has tapped into the taint, which is something Solas can't even begin to understand.

 

The High Dragon only seems tougher because it is usually fought at a lower level than the Archdemon.

[Dai Grepher]

Ferelden is, again the backwater. This isn't important in itself, but for the series and world, this means that its the pale, poor extent of what is REALLY out there - in geography, politics, magic, creatures, history.

 

Its the ORIGIN of the series story, but it had tendrils and precedent for all sorts of things in DAI, all over the place.

 

I get people were hoping every PLOT and SETTING would be so 'low' fantasy as DAO was (or seemed like it was, but really wasn't), but the lore itself has been nearly as crazy as DAI itself ended up.

 

Some things like time magic are nearly new though, the only things remotely hinting the possibility of it, is the relatively vague explanation of the Fade itself in DAO.

 

DAI upped power level but rarely was it done to a level that actually broke lore and narrative. Majority of rules set by DAO aren't just not broken, but even barely bent.

 

DAO started with precedent like magisters physically entering the Fade, for example. Our character in DAI successfully does it? Well so apparently did the elven gods, even if they're trapped there now. Oh and they traveled through realms in the eluvians, even if DAO only teases us with entering one only if we're a Warden romancing Morrigan.

 

 

I get complaints that DAI changes tone though. I don't agree fully with them, but I get them and I also hope that this same tone won't exist in DA4. But I think at least by now, people hanging on to the series can understand that the developers don't want every game to be Origins2, Origins3, Origins4. Its Dragon Age, and they may very well have a different vision.

 

The Free Marches are similar to Ferelden in those respects.

 

I think the only thing that Inquisition really introduced was the possibility that lyrium is living material, and also the titans. Well, there's lizard men too, but that's still out there in left field. I guess there was also the suggestion that the Qunari descend from a Tevinter experiment to crossbreed dragons with something else. Not really all that "high fantasy" by comparison to the other plots.

 

The time magic thing was just a big dang mess. I pretend like it never happened (I did CotJ).

 

I think the tone will be more war focused in DA4 actually. War against the Qunari. War against elves who will be striking strategic points at Solas' command. War within Tevinter itself. And I also think it will be about discovering secrets and uncovering knowledge. Hopefully there is more exploration, dungeon crawling, and combat variations in the next game.

[Dai Grepher]

Heh, forgot all about that. Goes to show how much I dislike Justice I can seldom remember much of what it says. 

 

Or perhaps he made you forget.
 

[Dai Grepher]

Sure. I guess this means that I have no idea what you mean when you say "grounded," then.

 

I mean realistic. The high fantasy is all the magical and inspiring stuff, like the Crossroads. The balance and the grounding element is the medieval and gritty stuff, like the mortal armies and dark ages type towns.
 

[Dai Grepher]

 

Call me crazy, but during Trespasser when you're in the Shattered Library, there a few codex entries that, to me, sound like the view of someone from "outside", like a tourist.

 

One in particular, called "Vir Dirthara: Homecoming" is as follows:

 

The pages of this book—memory?—describe an elf approaching a city of glass spires so deeply blue they ache. The city's outskirts are wrapped in lakes of mist, and figures stroll along the pearly, glowing strips as if they walked on solid ground. Groves of trees woven into enormous parks shelter elves in quiet hollows, while other elves walk below a river churning along an invisible shoal in the air.

The scene hums with quiet talk and contentment as the memory's maker reaches the city's gates, already thrown open wide.

emphasis added

 

Did anyone else see that when/if the found it?

BioWare is notorious for putting in tidbits like that, stuff that many never notice until it all comes together.

It mentions an elf in the memory, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the elf approaching the city and the person who wrote this entry are one and the same.

 

In fact, it constantly mentions "elves" as a designation, instead of just saying "people".

The timeline of Thedas shows that Arlathan in all it's glory and humans DO overlap, so I find it entirely possible, even if unlikely, that the person who wrote that passage was not only human but the very person we know of as the Maker.

I could be totally wrong, and if for whatever reason my theory is debunked by canon or the equivalent, I'll be the first to admit it.

Until then, this is my theory and I'm sticking by it.

 

Um... well, the codex says the "maker" here is a maker of a memory of those things, not the maker of the actual things that are being remembered.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Yes.

[Mistic]

The pages of this book—memory?—describe an elf approaching a city of glass spires so deeply blue they ache. The city's outskirts are wrapped in lakes of mist, and figures stroll along the pearly, glowing strips as if they walked on solid ground. Groves of trees woven into enormous parks shelter elves in quiet hollows, while other elves walk below a river churning along an invisible shoal in the air.

The scene hums with quiet talk and contentment as the memory's maker reaches the city's gates, already thrown open wide.

emphasis added

 

Did anyone else see that when/if the found it?

BioWare is notorious for putting in tidbits like that, stuff that many never notice until it all comes together.

It mentions an elf in the memory, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the elf approaching the city and the person who wrote this entry are one and the same.

 

In fact, it constantly mentions "elves" as a designation, instead of just saying "people".

The timeline of Thedas shows that Arlathan in all it's glory and humans DO overlap, so I find it entirely possible, even if unlikely, that the person who wrote that passage was not only human but the very person we know of as the Maker.

I could be totally wrong, and if for whatever reason my theory is debunked by canon or the equivalent, I'll be the first to admit it.

Until then, this is my theory and I'm sticking by it.

 

As far as I interpreted it, the codex entries are describing with words what the Inquisitor is feeling/seeing/experiencing instead of being the actual text (compare that to the chapter ??? of Hard in Hightown). The entry mentions "elves" because the reader, the Inquisitor, lives in a world in which different races are common. Using "people" in that situation would only make sense for a Dalish Inquisitor, and only up to a point.

 

As for the timeline, we don't really know when Fen'Harel created the Veil and sundered Arlathan's civilization. For all we know, it happened before humans came to Thedas. And it would make sense, since humans don't seem to have any record of a world without Veil and we know that the "quickening", traditionally blamed by the elves on human contact and dismissed by humans as just superstition, was most likely a byproduct of the creation of the Veil. Nevertheless, I understand that we lack information. Hopefully, if the next game happens to be set in Tevinter as suggested, more will be revealed about the first humans who arrived to Thedas.

[Catilina]

I just hate the gathering... its not too lifelike: the inquisitor have an army, a spynetwork, have a complete crew, but: do not have one f... dwarf for mines, one herbalist or something for herbs, and a hunter? AND: you can looking for my stray ram? WHAT? For your RAM? Wtfits?

 

Its funny!

[BroBear Berbil]

DA hasn't been the lowest fantasy setting but it definitely is moving into higher fantasy than what it is was.

 

There's the overarching theme that the old world, the time of the ancient elves, was high fantasy and now there are things from that time stirring about; Solas and the Titans mainly.

 

One thing that kind of irks me is the whole spy crystal thing you slip into Calpernia's stuff. I don't recall an item with this capability ever being brought up before but at least it only worked one way and wasn't in real time. Come Trespasser, however, Dorian gives you a similar item which apparently can be used to communicate in real time across the entire continent if I understood the epilogue correctly.

 

That gets a little too close to high fantasy for my liking. At least we're not at real teleportation...yet.

 

Now as far as dark fantasy goes, I certainly feel like Inquisition is more sanitized than Origins in some ways. We never really get to see poverty or a seedier side of Orlais for example. We get the tiniest, cleanest bit of Val Royeaux to look at and nothing else. You could come away from Inquisition thinking that Orlais was populated exclusively by vacuous nobles and their elven servants. Even the merchants wear masks and dress exactly the same as the nobles - it's ridiculous. Orlesians were caricatures.

[GoldenGail3]

Yes. I don't like this either. At least Besthuda has the Elder Scrolls to keep me busy for sometime; I like there progie despite it being an ambigous background.

[Ashagar]

DA hasn't been the lowest fantasy setting but it definitely is moving into higher fantasy than what it is was.

 

There's the overarching theme that the old world, the time of the ancient elves, was high fantasy and now there are things from that time stirring about; Solas and the Titans mainly.

 

One thing that kind of irks me is the whole spy crystal thing you slip into Calpernia's stuff. I don't recall an item with this capability ever being brought up before but at least it only worked one way and wasn't in real time. Come Trespasser, however, Dorian gives you a similar item which apparently can be used to communicate in real time across the entire continent if I understood the epilogue correctly.

 

That gets a little too close to high fantasy for my liking. At least we're not at real teleportation...yet.

 

Now as far as dark fantasy goes, I certainly feel like Inquisition is more sanitized than Origins in some ways. We never really get to see poverty or a seedier side of Orlais for example. We get the tiniest, cleanest bit of Val Royeaux to look at and nothing else. You could come away from Inquisition thinking that Orlais was populated exclusively by vacuous nobles and their elven servants.

 

 

The game in general has less gore than origins but tried for more the suspense and psychological aspects of horror which honestly I prefer, monsters are not scary and neither is gore.

[BroBear Berbil]

The game in general has less gore than origins but tried for more the suspense and psychological aspects of horror which honestly I prefer, monsters are not scary and neither is gore.

 

Wasn't meaning gore so much as the setting. Compare anything in Denerim to anything in Inquisition. In Origins you got a sense of class differences in Orzammar and Ferelden.

 

In Inquisition it's not the same. Poor humans in Orlais, who would be the overwhelming majority of the population, are almost non-existant. Sahrnia is really the only exception and it'd be a resort compared to Lothering if not for the sudden freeze.

 

Some of darker, adult themes were dropped since Origins.

 

Dragon Age was never an accurate medieval setting but it has absolutely adopted more and more contemporary social attitudes and sensibilities into its setting and characters since Origins.It just is what it is. I'll still play DA games in the foreseeable future because I'm invested in this series, but it's not the same series I started out with. It's understandable that BioWare/EA would want to play things safer in regards to their content to try to maximize appeal and profits.

 

Dark fantasy, high fantasy, if continues the trend from Inquisition I think it may end up being milquetoast fantasy.

 

Edit: And I think a lot of the potential for dark fantasy goes out the window by default when most of your game is open world MMO questing devoid of human characters. I'll take less places like Hissing Wastes if it means Val Royeaux can be fleshed out and populated with people people as Sera would say.

[AlanC9]

Dragon Age was never an accurate medieval setting but it has absolutely adopted more and more contemporary social attitudes and sensibilities into its setting and characters since Origins.It just is what it is. I'll still play DA games in the foreseeable future because I'm invested in this series, but it's not the same series I started out with. It's understandable that BioWare/EA would want to play things safer in regards to their content to try to maximize appeal and profits.

I don't see what actually changed; do you have examples? Sure, some stuff became more evident, but that isn't the same thing.

[AlanC9]

I mean realistic. The high fantasy is all the magical and inspiring stuff, like the Crossroads. The balance and the grounding element is the medieval and gritty stuff, like the mortal armies and dark ages type towns.

But, you know, the Renaissance was a real era too. It happened.