Yeah but if not played for comedy, "relatively normal people in the circus" can equal boring. Garrus is a fan favorite mostly as a carryover from ME1 and because he's super close to Shepard in ME3. Even Garrus fans laugh at how little content he has in 2. That's why all the jokes about calibrations; they want to talk to Garrus be he keeps saying that!
I understand that. I'm just saying that's not necessarily a bad thing. As in, a normal character can be well written, too. (Joker, anyone?)
But... Garrus in ME1 also barely talks, in my opinion. I only understood all the love for Garrus once I got to ME3. If it weren't for a different voice filter and turian body model, he's just your average angry cop with barely anything to say in ME1, as well. So, yeah, I was pretty puzzled by all the fangirling. (After playing through the whole trilogy, I understand it better of course.) But I guess we at least get to know him in ME1, unlike Jacob. Funnily enough, they're both defined by hating the "red tape" when we meet them.
I understand that. I'm just saying that's not necessarily a bad thing. As in, a normal character can be well written, too. (Joker, anyone?)
But... Garrus in ME1 also barely talks, in my opinion. I only understood all the love for Garrus once I got to ME3. If it weren't for a different voice filter and turian body model, he's just your average angry cop with barely anything to say in ME1, as well. So, yeah, I was pretty puzzled by all the fangirling. (After playing through the whole trilogy, I understand it better of course.) But I guess we at least get to know him in ME1, unlike Jacob. Funnily enough, they're both defined by hating the "red tape" when we meet them.
Garrus has a lot to say in ME1. He will talk about the mission, C-Sec, the Spectres, his father, and Dr. Saleon. His relationship to Shepard is also interesting in that even though you were just appointed, he looks up to you as a Spectre. This makes the series arc interesting because he moves to more of an equal by ME3. Jacob, by contrast, respects you but doesn't really want to talk much. He'll even be bothered by Shepard talking to him, saying he doesn't want to be too personal or something.
Most importantly, and this can not be stressed enough, Garrus' personal quests in both ME1 and ME2 carry deep, personal significance. Jacob, on the other hand, has a mere morbid curiosity about his and tells you he's dealt with his issues already. He gives Shepard the least incentive to deal with it.
LostInReverie19, Sarayne, KrrKs et 3 autres aiment ceci
Garrus has a lot to say in ME1. He will talk about the mission, C-Sec, the Spectres, his father, and Dr. Saleon. His relationship to Shepard is also interesting in that even though you were just appointed, he looks up to you as a Spectre. This makes the series arc interesting because he moves to more of an equal by ME3. Jacob, by contrast, respects you but doesn't really want to talk much. He'll even be bothered by Shepard talking to him, saying he doesn't want to be too personal or something.
Most importantly, and this can not be stressed enough, Garrus' personal quests in both ME1 and ME2 carry deep, personal significance. Jacob, on the other hand, has a mere morbid curiosity about his and tells you he's dealt with his issues already. He gives Shepard the least incentive to deal with it.
Fair enough. He does talk more than Jacob, there's no arguing about that. (The fact Jacob refuses to talk on the Normandy is one of my main problems with him, to be honest.) However, all companions comment on the missions. In all the games. That's nothing extra. Personally, I felt Garrus had little to say on the Normandy in comparison with e.g. Ashley. Just those little things about, as you say, C-Sec, Saleon, etc. To me, it didn't seem that much and he got heavily overshadowed by the human companions and Wrex, but I admit that may be just me. I mean, other people liked him from the start so he must have worked for them.
You make a good point comparing their personal quests, though. I haven't thought of that. I've always been bothered that I didn't really feel the effect of what I did with Garrus (For example, after you're done with his loyalty mission, it doesn't matter if you saved or killed Sidonis. The dialogue is the same, etc. Even though you led him to be more "paragon" in ME1 and he acknowledged it, he still switches back in ME2.), but at least you get to see him question his beliefs during his missions while Jacob doesn't seem to be affected that much during or after, or doesn't allow us to see it. To be fair, at least we can see what kind of person he is. Not saying it's exactly quality content.
Yeah but if not played for comedy, "relatively normal people in the circus" can equal boring. Garrus is a fan favorite mostly as a carryover from ME1 and because he's super close to Shepard in ME3. Even Garrus fans laugh at how little content he has in 2. That's why all the jokes about calibrations; they want to talk to Garrus be he keeps saying that!
This is why I don't like him in ME3 though.
He was chill and just calibrated before. And unintentionally funny. "Impressive!" Then I suddenly became his and Liara's best friends. That's a cheesy way of writing a choice based series. At least in the third game. I'd probably warm up to it if it was like that from the start.
He was chill and just calibrated before. And unintentionally funny. "Impressive!" Then I suddenly became his and Liara's best friends. That's a cheesy way of writing a choice based series. At least in the third game. I'd probably warm up to it if it was like that from the start.
Ah, so you didn't like that you were forced to be buds? Well, Shepard always was more defined than characters like The Warden. Liara is that way because she's the only character guaranteed to be there until the end. Some also think she's a writer favorite, but that might be a "chicken and egg" situation.
Ah, so you didn't like that you were forced to be buds? Well, Shepard always was more defined than characters like The Warden. Liara is that way because she's the only character guaranteed to be there until the end. Some also think she's a writer favorite, but that might be a "chicken and egg" situation.
From what I understand, Jon Dombrow took over Garrus in ME3.. and I think that's the reason. He was just a fan like everyone else when ME1 came out. So he wrote it from that perspective, I think. Garrus' own creator never pushed it that far. Same goes for Wrex. Mac Walters originally wrote both of them.. but they're different in ME3. As for Liara, I don't know what to say. It was already different in ME2. I liked the way she was in ME1. And again, that's another writer change. Drew K originally wrote her -- and he was fair about it.
From what I understand, Jon Dombrow took over Garrus in ME3.. and I think that's the reason. He was just a fan like everyone else when ME1 came out. So he wrote it from that perspective, I think. Garrus' own creator never pushed it that far. Same goes for Wrex. Mac Walters originally wrote both of them.. but they're different in ME3. As for Liara, I don't know what to say. It was already different in ME2. I liked the way she was in ME1. And again, that's another writer change. Drew K originally wrote her -- and he was fair about it.
Well Liara has no excuse. That happened off screen and didn't get nearly enough time or exposition to make sense. Lair of the Shadow Broker helped a lot.
Garrus talks a lot about what he did since ME1 and his personal mission with Sidonus shows just how much everything has affected him. Wrex taking over Urdnot allowed him to do the things he said he wanted in ME1, so I thought his transition from cynical quitter to visionary leader made sense because his goals didn't change.
Well Liara has no excuse. That happened off screen and didn't get nearly enough time or exposition to make sense. Lair of the Shadow Broker helped a lot.
Garrus talks a lot about what he did since ME1 and his personal mission with Sidonus shows just how much everything has affected him. Wrex taking over Urdnot allowed him to do the things he said he wanted in ME1, so I thought his transition from cynical quitter to visionary leader made sense because his goals didn't change.
Yeah, I don't mind Wrex's leadership or anything like that. I mean on a personal level.. they became more chummy. It was very fan friendly, I know.. but didn't do much for my own playthroughs.
I've played renegade and paragon once each so far. Something that has disappointed me is this, I think I read that one of the plot flags for ME1 is whether you pushed Garrus to be more paragon or renegade. At the end of ME1 his plans are different depending on the path your Shep chose as he is inspired by your actions.
Am I right in thinking that they didn't take that change through to ME2? I couldn't see a difference, I was hoping his attitude/dialogue/personal missions would have a renegade or paragon slant to them but I didn't notice anything...which makes me super sad as Garrus is, out of all the squadmates, the most affected by Shepards example (imo) and the most inspired by their friendship with him.
I think if you don't recruit Garrus in ME1 but he survived in ME3, he's still default best friend and he will still say that he and Shepard fought together against Saren. The only way to see any difference with his narrative, was to let him die in ME2. I'm not sure whether Liara would still mention Garrus.
In addition to Liara's LotSB, she have a Redemption series dedicated for her and one chapter for Homeworlds to fill in her narrative within the game.
I was kinda disappointed that most of everyone get just one chapter in Foundation and Homeworlds. Even Jacob have an entire mobile game dedicated to him.
I've played renegade and paragon once each so far. Something that has disappointed me is this, I think I read that one of the plot flags for ME1 is whether you pushed Garrus to be more paragon or renegade. At the end of ME1 his plans are different depending on the path your Shep chose as he is inspired by your actions.
Am I right in thinking that they didn't take that change through to ME2? I couldn't see a difference, I was hoping his attitude/dialogue/personal missions would have a renegade or paragon slant to them but I didn't notice anything...which makes me super sad as Garrus is, out of all the squadmates, the most affected by Shepards example (imo) and the most inspired by their friendship with him.
There are one or two dialogue changes, but easily missed.
I think when you meat him for the first time (when you first discover that Archangel is Garrus), one of his responses to your questions changes based on his Paragon/Renegade influence at the end of ME1.
I know when you talk to him the first time in the Forward Battery in the Normandy, his background for leaving the Citadel will be different depending on his Renegade/Paragon influence.
But that is about it.
LostInReverie19, fraggle et ArcadiaGrey aiment ceci
There are one or two dialogue changes, but easily missed.
I think when you meat him for the first time (when you first discover that Archangel is Garrus), one of his responses to your questions changes based on his Paragon/Renegade influence at the end of ME1.
I know when you talk to him the first time in the Forward Battery in the Normandy, his background for leaving the Citadel will be different depending on his Renegade/Paragon influence.
But that is about it.
Ohh, okay, thank you. I'll have to watch out for that.
I wanted him to actually be different you know, maybe his actions on Omega will have been a little different and if affects his recruitment or loyalty quest. Or perhaps a big thing would happen in ME3 and he'd deal with it in either a renegade or paragon way....*sigh* But alas, was not to be.
Garrus has a lot to say in ME1. He will talk about the mission, C-Sec, the Spectres, his father, and Dr. Saleon. His relationship to Shepard is also interesting in that even though you were just appointed, he looks up to you as a Spectre. This makes the series arc interesting because he moves to more of an equal by ME3. Jacob, by contrast, respects you but doesn't really want to talk much. He'll even be bothered by Shepard talking to him, saying he doesn't want to be too personal or something.
Most importantly, and this can not be stressed enough, Garrus' personal quests in both ME1 and ME2 carry deep, personal significance. Jacob, on the other hand, has a mere morbid curiosity about his and tells you he's dealt with his issues already. He gives Shepard the least incentive to deal with it.
Some of it is the fact that Tali, Liara, and Wrex to a lesser degree come off as walking codexes for the respective races and a lot dialogue feels like giant exposition dumps on Quarian, Geth, Asari, and Krogan history, society, religion, and etc and very little on them as characters. In ME1 Tali seems to have more dialogue about the geth then she does about her life and is a little more than a bunch of codex entries.
I think Garrus is the only alien companion that learn more him than the Turian race in his dialogue and I don't really remember him talking about the turian race all that much in ME1 and when he did he was also talking about his backstory, personal issues, etc, Wrex also does this but Shepard is the one that has to get him to talk about the Krogan, a subject that Wrex openly admits that he doesn't like to talk about.
Out the alien companions in ME1 Garrus probably feels like a more complex character right out of the gate whereas ME2 was really when Tali felt more like a character, and while Liara is my personal favorite squadmate and LI in all 3 games, IMHO in the first game if she wasn't a LI for Shepard she would have been little more than than a talking asari codex.
LostInReverie19, Sarayne, Natureguy85 et 2 autres aiment ceci
Some of it is the fact that Tali, Liara, and Wrex to a lesser degree come off as walking codexes for the respective races and a lot dialogue feels like giant exposition dumps on Quarian, Geth, Asari, and Krogan history, society, religion, and etc and very little on them as characters. In ME1 Tali seems to have more dialogue about the geth then she does about her life and is a little more than a bunch of codex entries.
I think Garrus is the only alien companion that learn more him than the Turian race in his dialogue and I don't really remember him talking about the turian race all that much in ME1 and when he did he was also talking about his backstory, personal issues, etc, Wrex also does this but Shepard is the one that has to get him to talk about the Krogan, a subject that Wrex openly admits that he doesn't like to talk about.
Out the alien companions in ME1 Garrus probably feels like a more complex character right out of the gate whereas ME2 was really when Tali felt more like a character, and while Liara is my personal favorite squadmate and LI in all 3 games, IMHO in the first game if she wasn't a LI for Shepard she would have been little more than than a talking asari codex.
I agree, the fact that Garrus is a turian is almost inconsequential. It's more about him as a character, not his background, and I felt like I knew him more than any of the others by the end of ME1.
ME1's Liara is an asari walking codex. Her conversations always revolve around her people, how they reproduce etc. Kinda bored even when she began to talk about its her first time with you etc. She does have more depth as a character in LotSB if you bother to paragon interrupt her and be nice all the time. But in ME3, it does become.... strange.
I know, I always rag about Liara all the time but rather than ideal lover, she's the very best definition of an emotional manipulator.... you'll find yourself unable to say no or even hurtful even to the slightest to her, she made you feel like she need your approval constantly and she will doubt her own abilities with exaggerated insecurities so that you could tell her she's worth something, she would look at you in the eye and shyly insinuate that she want something out of you whether you're willing or not, she will unload her entire life baggage on you and make you feel sorry for her like she have it a lot worst than everyone..... and the guilt-tripping ... .... .... I'm not judging anyone who preferred her and I don't know whether the writers purposely did this and think its romantic but if I were to experience a toxic relationship... ...
I've played renegade and paragon once each so far. Something that has disappointed me is this, I think I read that one of the plot flags for ME1 is whether you pushed Garrus to be more paragon or renegade. At the end of ME1 his plans are different depending on the path your Shep chose as he is inspired by your actions.
Am I right in thinking that they didn't take that change through to ME2? I couldn't see a difference, I was hoping his attitude/dialogue/personal missions would have a renegade or paragon slant to them but I didn't notice anything...which makes me super sad as Garrus is, out of all the squadmates, the most affected by Shepards example (imo) and the most inspired by their friendship with him.
Damn I'm so tired, I hope that made sense.
The only change I am aware of is that Paragon Garrus returns to C-SEC and Renegade Garrus tries to or actually does become a Spectre. Like it or not, the reason it doesn't affect his character is that the events on Omega, particularly with Sidonus, define him far more than his time with Shepard. While you can dislike them overriding the influence Shepard had and offscreen character development is a bad way to go, they at least justified it with more detail than Liara.
The reason I hate the override is because I really love the confrontation with Dr. Saleon, particularly if you try to arrest him.
This is so important because Shepard is not just agreeing or disagreeing with Garrus. Shepard has just taught him something.
Some of it is the fact that Tali, Liara, and Wrex to a lesser degree come off as walking codexes for the respective races and a lot dialogue feels like giant exposition dumps on Quarian, Geth, Asari, and Krogan history, society, religion, and etc and very little on them as characters. In ME1 Tali seems to have more dialogue about the geth then she does about her life and is a little more than a bunch of codex entries.
I think Garrus is the only alien companion that learn more him than the Turian race in his dialogue and I don't really remember him talking about the turian race all that much in ME1 and when he did he was also talking about his backstory, personal issues, etc, Wrex also does this but Shepard is the one that has to get him to talk about the Krogan, a subject that Wrex openly admits that he doesn't like to talk about.
Out the alien companions in ME1 Garrus probably feels like a more complex character right out of the gate whereas ME2 was really when Tali felt more like a character, and while Liara is my personal favorite squadmate and LI in all 3 games, IMHO in the first game if she wasn't a LI for Shepard she would have been little more than than a talking asari codex.
This is a really good point and something I hadn't thought about. It's most true with Tali. She is mostly background on both the Quarians and Geth. However that actually makes sense with her character and the focus on the community and species rather than the individual. Unfortunately, it also highlights when they changed things in the future games, such as the Geth being multiple programs within a platform and the Quarians always wearing their suits.
Wrex seamlessly weaves information about the Krogan inside his personal narrative, which is what makes it so interesting. Wrex warms up to Shepard over the course of the game, so I don't see him being so warm and friendly in ME2 as a big stretch.
Liara gives more insight into her character with her dialogue in missions and debriefings more than when talking to her in her little back room.
On that note, why the heck did they get rid of those? Not only were they a great way to have all the characters interact, but they helped with immersion.
LostInReverie19, Tonymac, RedCaesar97 et 1 autre aiment ceci
you'll find yourself unable to say no or even hurtful even to the slightest to her, she made you feel like she need your approval constantly and she will doubt her own abilities with exaggerated insecurities so that you could tell her she's worth something, she would look at you in the eye and shyly insinuate that she want something out of you whether you're willing or not, she will unload her entire life baggage on you and make you feel sorry for her like she have it a lot worst than everyone..... and the guilt-tripping ... .... .... I'm not judging anyone who preferred her and I don't know whether the writers purposely did this and think its romantic but if I were to experience a toxic relationship... ...
I liked telling her off in ME1. She gives a little salute. Ironically, that's the cutest thing she ever did. I wish they had those options later in the series.
I liked telling her off in ME1. She gives a little salute. Ironically, that's the cutest thing she ever did. I wish they had those options later in the series.
I miss being mean to Liara. And to aliens in general.
LostInReverie19, Natureguy85, ArcadiaGrey et 1 autre aiment ceci
It happen when she talk about your history after she look up through extranet (usually after Feros). She will think it was harmless but you either make her feel that its isnt her fault or make her back off and don't cyberstalk you again. Yeah, its kinda the most adorable thing... but not as adorable my FemShep smiling shyly.. mmm
It happen when she talk about your history after she look up through extranet (usually after Feros). She will think it was harmless but you either make her feel that its isnt her fault or make her back off and don't cyberstalk you again. Yeah, its kinda the most adorable thing... but not as adorable my FemShep smiling shyly.. mmm
I found that funny about ME1 Shep.. he/she was touchy about their private info for some reason. It's a weird quirk, but I liked it. Barla Von, Liara, Shi'ara, the dude from the Earthborn origin.
I miss being mean to Liara. And to aliens in general.
Yeah, it's sad as it limits RP. My last Shep didn't trust aliens but got over it by ME2. Now I'm playing a super super racist Shep and all I can think to do is to give him a wake up call at the end of ME2. Seeing how ppl say you can't be racist in ME3 I was thinking of Shep ignoring and hating the aliens in ME2 all the way through, even ignoring their upgrades as he doesn't trust them. But then that will lead to
Spoiler
Kasumi dying as a result, and Thane but he won't care about him
In the six month gap between games Shep will realise he was reason that that happened, and feel super guilty as he was close to that person. That'll make him reluctantly work with the aliens in ME3 even tho he still doesn't like them, as he knows he needs to for the sake of humanity.
Meh....that's all I've got. But if I could continue to be a racist humanity first jerk, I'd have gone with that instead.
Maybe it makes sense. Maybe after all they've been through in the first 2 games Shep would have to start giving aliens their due. Maybe it would be daft to continue to feel superior to them. Or maybe Bioware just wanted us to be nice guys this time. Who knows *shrug*
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I wish they had those options later in the series.
