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Please make MEA more like Dragon Age 2


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#76
straykat

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Baldur's Gate and NWN are pretty linear Sylvius, it's just a fact of life.

 

They might of been marginally better games, but that because they were tethered to the D&D rules which constrained Bioware from burdening us their natively somewhat weak game design skills.

 

Dragon Age 1 was messy for instance because of the hamfisted nature of statistics like armor and spellpower, a trend that continued all the way into SWTOR. Players shouldnt be confused as to one item being better than the other without using odd conversion ratios or limited information.

 

Dragon Age 2 just completed the transition between D&D complexity they couldn't handle and a simpler system they could.

 

There are many other better hardcore RPGs out there, no need to burden Bioware with our preferences.

 

I think DA2 was the right kind of transition to simple, if that's what they wanna do. Tactics are still existent at least. Mages are also better than DAI, while still being action heavy. The only thing I see improved is the warrior.


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#77
Seraphim24

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I think DA2 was the right kind of transition to simple, if that's what they wanna do. Tactics are still existent at least. Mages are also better than DAI, while still being action heavy. The only thing I see improved is the warrior.

 

For me, the "right transition" to simple is somewhat odd sounding, but yeah, you are right it is the right transition to simple. Dragon Age Inquisition was the wrong transition because it was bloated filler open world full feature nonsense everywhere. It was arguably even simpler than Dragon Age 2 ultimately by trying so hard to avoid it all.


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#78
straykat

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For me, the "right transition" to simple is somewhat odd sounding, but yeah, you are right it is the right transition to simple. Dragon Age Inquisition was the wrong transition because it was bloated filler open world full feature nonsense everywhere.

 

Heh yeah, I don't know how else to put it.



#79
Seraphim24

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Also lets be real, pretty all Bioware games are the same thing, sci-fi, fantasy, asia, whatever, it's all the same.

 

Everything they create can translate pretty easily.



#80
Seraphim24

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What does this actually have to do with what Sylvius said? Why do people view Brent Knowles as more important than James Ohlen on what was advertised as a BG spiritual successor?

 

People seem fond of comparing different Bioware games like there are these significant changes due to this or that, most Bioware games are the same, all the way up to BG1 I never played Shattered Steel but I've played nearly all the other ones and it's kind of all fundamentally the same identity.

 

Moreover, as I pointed out before, Bioware's early game ideas derived not primarily from the people who made them, the primary game designer responsible for what you experience in everything from BG to arguably even KOTOR1, on a game design level, is Gary Gygax.

 

From the very beginning, Bioware was leveraging their kooky Minsc/Edwin/Anomen/Bastila/Alistair/Kaidan/ Canadian fantasy jokester prankster sexter universe. That's what Bioware is primarily responsible for in this situation.

 

Dragon Age 2 is when they finally just did that and nothing else.



#81
straykat

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I've said before that sometimes I think they're looking at some whiteboard and crossing off a checklist. Or have meetings for new employees to teach them how to flip hamburgers correctly.

 

There are enough minor differences though from game to game where I do prefer certain things. And at the very least, DA2 departed from the standard hero formula...even while retaining a lot of other elements.



#82
Seraphim24

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I've said before that sometimes I think they're looking at some whiteboard and crossing off a checklist. Or have meetings for new employees to teach them how to flip hamburgers correctly.

 

There are enough minor differences though from game to game where I do prefer certain things. And at the very least, DA2 departed from the standard hero formula...even while retaining a lot of other elements.

 

Yeah, but it's  not significant to say it's a different identity.



#83
Felya87

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DA2 had a good idea: small scale hero, more impact of the background story. Ok. But the realization of it was terrible.


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#84
LinksOcarina

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DA2 had a good idea: small scale hero, more impact of the background story. Ok. But the realization of it was terrible.

 

I still give credit where it's due, 18 months to develop a game, and it still is better than most games that take 2-3 years in the end. Props to BioWare for that at least.

 

I do agree, it could have been a LOT better if it had time to bake, realize that potential.


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#85
AlanC9

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I think DA2 was the right kind of transition to simple, if that's what they wanna do. Tactics are still existent at least. Mages are also better than DAI, while still being action heavy. The only thing I see improved is the warrior.


Wait... was DA2 actually simpler in the first place? I don't see it.

#86
Lucca_de_Neon

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Wait... was DA2 actually simpler in the first place? I don't see it.

In comparison to DA:O? oh yes 

giphy.gif



#87
AlanC9

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An actual argument there would be nice. What was simpler?

#88
LightningPoodle

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An actual argument there would be nice. What was simpler?

 

Combat was simpler. Dialogue was simpler. Choices were simpler. DA:O had a more strategic combat system against one that was more hack and slash. Dialogue had the iconography saying whether it was aggressive, charming, et cetera and the choices, the choices were a lot easier to see than they were in DA:O. Much more clear. Pick this side or that side. Though that also falls into the simpler dialogue. So two things. Combat and Dialogue.



#89
Hiemoth

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Wait... was DA2 actually simpler in the first place? I don't see it.

 

I see that argument thrown around a lot, but I simply don't think its factually true. DA2 system was actually pretty complex, and not necessarily always in a beneficial way, yet it keeps being mentioned as simpler for, as far as I can tell, because it's faster. For example, it has a lot more complex character development system that allows several different functional builds as well as as much more efficient and fleshed out cross-class effects.

 

It's one of those things that's kind of just accepted as truth as again seen by the response of how DAO, which was mechanistically really simple, was just more complex somehow.

 

 

I still give credit where it's due, 18 months to develop a game, and it still is better than most games that take 2-3 years in the end. Props to BioWare for that at least.

 

I do agree, it could have been a LOT better if it had time to bake, realize that potential.

 

DA2 is, for me personally, the one game where I keep wondering about the effect of development time, and I actually think it was even less than 18 months. Yet in that time they redid their graphics engine, reworked the combat mechanics, introduced skill trees that were actually more developed and complex than what we got in DAI, crafted one more complicated stories they've done and managed to create really interesting connecting narrative beats, introduced a new sort of a companion interaction system, just name a few things. The fact that they got all that done in such a short time just makes me wonder what they had accomplished if they had just gotten an extra year of development, where they still would have had half the development time of DAI.

 

Again, for me, the potential of DA2 was so great that it makes me sad that the main devs for DA currently are actively dismissive of it as there were so many things in it that could have been developed so much further.


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#90
Hiemoth

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Combat was simpler. Dialogue was simpler. Choices were simpler. DA:O had a more strategic combat system against one that was more hack and slash. Dialogue had the iconography saying whether it was aggressive, charming, et cetera and the choices, the choices were a lot easier to see than they were in DA:O. Much more clear. Pick this side or that side. Though that also falls into the simpler dialogue. So two things. Combat and Dialogue.

 

Wait, is an argument here really that DA2 was simpler because the choices were easier to interpret when making that selection? Besides that's not even true, the flavor dialogue was presented by a tone, but action choices didn't have a tone associated with them when choosing. Besides, the developers have several times stated that there were as many dialogue choices in DAO than there were in DA2 as the list formet they used in DAO limited the amount of dilagoue choices to six choices.

 

As for combat, I know this an age old issue, but for me, DAO combat is about as simple as it gets, especially since the character development system that heavily affects combat is a lot more complex in DA2 compared to DAO.


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#91
animedreamer

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An actual argument there would be nice. What was simpler?

 

 

Combat

You see in DA:O combat was a series of choices you made. "Should I move here and attack this guy, and tell Wynne to heal me while I get my ass jumped by 3 different dudes, thus keeping them all focused on me and away from her, while Leliana peppers them with arrows softening them for Morrigan who's in the middle of casting Inferno on the lot of us, or do I have Morrigan cast cone of cold on the group, then have Leliana use Critical Shot on one guy, and Wynne use Stone fist on the 2nd guy for two instant or near instant death Shatterings." and other things like that. 

 

Whereas in DA2 was like, "Spam strongest move, then use 2nd strongest, then 3rd strongest. Auto attack until moves come back up from cooldown. Set allies to whatever pre-programmed tactics settings they have access to and remind them to use a potion when they get low on Health."

 

After Combat and leveling Up.

 

DA:O, yes pwned those guys with my awesome strategic thinking, and was rewarded by gaining a level and some sick loot. Tier 3 weapon, nice, tier 4 armor better. Let's level up Wynne. Oh she's level 14 now so I can put a point into her tactics and increase her tactics options number by 1, definitely taking that. Oh she has a point for abilities to, guess i'll make her learn Mass Heal. Ill put her stat points into Int and wis, giving her more mana and stronger healing.

 

DA:2, Hmm just another button mash fest, guess ill pick up this junk and sell it for some chump change. Nothing like spending 10 minutes fighting near endless goons for broken glass, and one holely sweater. Oh Varric leveled up, hmm what should i spend his stat points on, oh the game says put it in dex or cunning or im stupid, okay ill put it in dex uh duh. Oh I get to spend a ability point, I think i'll put it into one of the brightly colored dots that are connected by a line that indicates that I can't learn the next skill in that tree until I learn the one before it, ayeyuk yuk. Thank you for telling me what to do game.


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#92
HSomCokeSniper

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I'm having a hard time catching your point in all that...

 

You talk about scope and stakes of the story, then suddenly about LGBT and the "myth of the straight gamer", then about the characters who are "pretty nice and friendly and stuff" if you play paragon (is this good or bad).

 

"Now with Bioware, it really hurts me to see people, who seem to have found a place where they are happy and satisfied, pushed into doing things they don't want to do, for reasons they don't really understand."

I have no idea what this is about...

 

Some kind of summary would be nice.

 

 

Also: "but seriously screw their opinions" 

lf you want to come across as tolerant and open minded, this doesn't really help.



#93
Hiemoth

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Combat

You see in DA:O combat was a series of choices you made. "Should I move here and attack this guy, and tell Wynne to heal me while I get my ass jumped by 3 different dudes, thus keeping them all focused on me and away from her, while Leliana peppers them with arrows softening them for Morrigan who's in the middle of casting Inferno on the lot of us, or do I have Morrigan cast cone of cold on the group, then have Leliana use Critical Shot on one guy, and Wynne use Stone fist on the 2nd guy for two instant or near instant death Shatterings." and other things like that. 

 

Whereas in DA2 was like, "Spam strongest move, then use 2nd strongest, then 3rd strongest. Auto attack until moves come back up from cooldown. Set allies to whatever pre-programmed tactics settings they have access to and remind them to use a potion when they get low on Health."

 

Want to hear something funny, your description of combat in DA2 pretty much matches with my experience in DAO. Also, I am somewhat confused by the argument that one of does need to ponder on character actions and positions in a game where the enemy can suddenly land directly next to your mages.

 

Also, I am somewhat confused by the argument that having a complex tactics system removing the need to micromanage each action by a character makes the game worse.

 

 

After Combat and leveling Up.

 

DA:O, yes pwned those guys with my awesome strategic thinking, and was rewarded by gaining a level and some sick loot. Tier 3 weapon, nice, tier 4 armor better. Let's level up Wynne. Oh she's level 14 now so I can put a point into her tactics and increase her tactics options number by 1, definitely taking that. Oh she has a point for abilities to, guess i'll make her learn Mass Heal. Ill put her stat points into Int and wis, giving her more mana and stronger healing.

 

DA:2, Hmm just another button mash fest, guess ill pick up this junk and sell it for some chump change. Nothing like spending 10 minutes fighting near endless goons for broken glass, and one holely sweater. Oh Varric leveled up, hmm what should i spend his stat points on, oh the game says put it in dex or cunning or im stupid, okay ill put it in dex uh duh. Oh I get to spend a ability point, I think i'll put it into one of the brightly colored dots that are connected by a line that indicates that I can't learn the next skill in that tree until I learn the one before it, ayeyuk yuk. Thank you for telling me what to do game.

 

Again, confused by this argument, not just by the fact that I almost never needed that strategic thinking to pwn basically anything the game threw at me

 

First, DAO has a set equipment system, which means that the gear you find at early point will continue to be much better than any of the other loot, meaning that most of the loot is useless as better equipment unless you are a packmule finding stuff to sell. Besides, didn't your first argument go about how you need to microchoose every action? So how does a point in tactics help with that? And don't you get more tactic points with levels in DA2 as well? And man that complicated DAO system where you have to choose between two stats to put points in to as opposed to DA2, where... you have to choose between two stats to put points in to? And even that's not true, as for example in DA2 the two-handed warrior approach is made much more efficient by putting points also in to Cunning and increasing a critical chance as opposed to DAO system where two-handed warrior is almost useless in most combat situations compared to two-handed or sword-and-shield warriors.

 

Oh, and there was also mention of the character development where you have to choose one skill in a linear skill tree as opposed to that dreary, simple system in DA2 where you were able to improve existing talents and had much more breaching choices in how to develop the character.



#94
Felya87

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I still give credit where it's due, 18 months to develop a game, and it still is better than most games that take 2-3 years in the end. Props to BioWare for that at least.

I do agree, it could have been a LOT better if it had time to bake, realize that potential.

It surely wasn't a bad game, if taken on its own (even with the many defect). The problem was having it as sequel of a hight quality game like Irigins, with all its combo of choices and consequences, personalization and cured story.
DA2 had lots of good idea, but badly implemented. I liked the concept of the various companions, but I found playng the game most of the time was focused on only one aspect of their personality, ending up feeling monodimensional.

Choices were present, but not the consequences.

The game should have been small scale, but our character was already a big name just after the first act. The small scale was trown out very soon.

I hope For the next time BioWare is going to give us a smaller scale Hero, we can actually have a smaller-impact into the world story, but with all the chance to make good\bad decision with its small good\bad consequences.

#95
animedreamer

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1 Want to hear something funny, your description of combat in DA2 pretty much matches with my experience in DAO. Also, I am somewhat confused by the argument that one of does need to ponder on character actions and positions in a game where the enemy can suddenly land directly next to your mages.

 

2 Also, I am somewhat confused by the argument that having a complex tactics system removing the need to micromanage each action by a character makes the game worse.

 

 

 

3 Again, confused by this argument, not just by the fact that I almost never needed that strategic thinking to pwn basically anything the game threw at me

 

4a.) First, DAO has a set equipment system, which means that the gear you find at early point will continue to be much better than any of the other loot, meaning that most of the loot is useless as better equipment unless you are a packmule finding stuff to sell.

 

4b.) Besides, didn't your first argument go about how you need to microchoose every action? So how does a point in tactics help with that? And don't you get more tactic points with levels in DA2 as well?

 

4c.) And man that complicated DAO system where you have to choose between two stats to put points in to as opposed to DA2, where... you have to choose between two stats to put points in to? And even that's not true, as for example in DA2 the two-handed warrior approach is made much more efficient by putting points also in to Cunning and increasing a critical chance as opposed to DAO system where two-handed warrior is almost useless in most combat situations compared to two-handed or sword-and-shield warriors.

 

4d.) Oh, and there was also mention of the character development where you have to choose one skill in a linear skill tree as opposed to that dreary, simple system in DA2 where you were able to improve existing talents and had much more breaching choices in how to develop the character.

 

1.) If you're suddenly surrounded by goons that's not your fault that TERRIBLE game design. Look up the top 5 problems with DA2 then come back and re-read my strong points and weak points about both games. I'll do you a favor. Enemies falling out of the sky or just sprouting out of the ground is number 2, right behind repetitive dungeons. So yes you might like that, but most people don't and see that as a huge flaw. 

 

2.) To actually harkens back to what you said in the beginning. "I am somewhat confused by the argument that one of does need to ponder on character actions and positions in a game where the enemy can suddenly land directly next to your mages" When I got into RPGs I enjoyed it because of that very reason, Trying to out think the AI. So yes positioning, strategizing in general how i could most effectively win the encounter long before got underway. I've played all three games a lot, but only DAO stands test of time in that you can plot before hand as oppose to respond during which DA2 and DAI are stuck doing, the later more so because of your limited options as oppose to sudden encounters, or lack of strategy in DA2. No offense but if you dont like to think about your situations I'm curious as to why you got into RPGs. 

 

3.) You kind of weakened you're defense here. You basically admitted that the game required little to no thought, which is exactly what I implied, lets again talk about what a game should be, something you can enjoy, and challenging. If its something you enjoy but isn't challenging then you're only getting half your money's worth in my opinion.

 

4a.) That makes no sense to someone who has played the game in depth. The loot dropped is scaled to your level, ie a level 2 warden finds gear usually expected to be useful around his level, also only certain enemies usually scripted ones drop set equipment ie this chainmail X enemy drops is always tier 3 with the same bonuses. Also the equipment system itself is more rewarding simply because of the aforementioned scaled to level, and even if you don't need it as you mentioned can be sold for actual significant value, that's not a flaw that's a boon even in game it makes more sense to a loot the guy with the good to decent equipment and if not needed sell it for money in order to buy what you do need, as oppose to kill enemies by the score and find pieces of rope and some a broken pipe and sell it for a few coppers, trust me no one is walking down the street looking for broken pieces of glass to sell.

 

4b.) If you like you can click my name and look at my post throughout the forums and see my rallying cry on "giving us back control of the actual game/characters" I'm pretty vocal about this, what you see as micromanaging is something most RPG vets consider being in control or actually role playing. How can you call it a RPG if the only thing you do is pick an dialog tree and in combat press one button, until one of your special abilities is available to use? Even the most basic JRPG gives you more options than that, and there entire genre was basic derived from a watered down version of traditional western based CRPGs. Micromanaging is not a flaw in a real RPG, it's a boon that allows you become more engrossed in the game because you control every aspect, if you fail it's your fault, as oppose to say "oops i used heal or my healing potion too soon, now i have to wait 50 seconds until they're usable gain, guess im going to die now, or even worse, simple tactics you would normally have had set up in DAO can't be done in DA2 simply because it would actually make AI controlled allies look smart."

 

4c.) Wrong again, while i used Wynne as a example, i used the most basic of basic choices. You could take a mage a put every point into int and dex from the moment you get them and they are still available character in more ways than the rest of the series combined. Let me explain, while DA2 allowed you to select stats, they made it very clear that they wanted each class to focus on more than 2 stats, meaning every rogue was a carbon copy of the next stat wise, same for warriors and mages. However in DAO like i said while class had their primary stat in regard to what they needed to for gear or weapons suited to them you could put points into other stats and in most cases still have a viable character. A mage who has high int and dex can take arcane warrior and equip a bow and deal rogue-like damage on their basic attacks if not more so basic attack wise than a rogue as most rogues don't usually go for to much strength, not to mention casting spells and holding up their original role just fine. Same mage could spec himself to be a strength/con character and use shapeshifter to be a tank/dpser, (options that you will never see again in the series), a Rogue could spec himself to be a Straight Strength/Con a play like a dps focused warrior, or he could spec himself to be dex cunning and be a awesome sniper crit rogue, can spec himself to be a str cunning rogue and be a combination of the two, could spec himself to be cunning con rogue and just keep a bare minimum dex or str for gear and utilize which ever specialization best optimizes cunning for damage and bam still awesome, in fact im sure its a rogue skill that switches cunning for strength when dealing melee damage, see where im going with this, Actual control over your character is greatly missing from the series after the first game. You can actual BUILD your own hero the way you want it, and in most cases it'll work and no it's not complicated unless you can't read simple descriptions and make a informed decision on how this must work. They took that out and a lot of people didn't appreciate be cuddled like 5 year olds when it came time to play the next installment.

 

4d.) What you call branching skill trees is a joke and i mentioned it in another thread as well, they basically lobotomized certain skills and spread out there effects, or simply came up with nice additional effects but rather than just put it on the skill made you work to get it, that is not good gaming, its a weak mechanic used to fill out the game so they can say, "you have 300 skills to choose from." ... no you actually have 100 skills and 200 parts of those 100 that we spaced out to make you think you have a great variety of choice.



#96
LinksOcarina

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It surely wasn't a bad game, if taken on its own (even with the many defect). The problem was having it as sequel of a hight quality game like Irigins, with all its combo of choices and consequences, personalization and cured story.
DA2 had lots of good idea, but badly implemented. I liked the concept of the various companions, but I found playng the game most of the time was focused on only one aspect of their personality, ending up feeling monodimensional.

Choices were present, but not the consequences.

The game should have been small scale, but our character was already a big name just after the first act. The small scale was trown out very soon.

I hope For the next time BioWare is going to give us a smaller scale Hero, we can actually have a smaller-impact into the world story, but with all the chance to make good\bad decision with its small good\bad consequences.

 

I don't necessarily agree about no consequences.

 

The consequences are there, in-game, and in Inquisition as we saw. It's a lot of setup yes, but it has a purpose. I think it is also the kind of consequences that are shown are also small and insignificant in the end to the grand scheme of things. The big ticket items that happen, like the Mage/Templar conclusion and the Arishok, are designed to be unavoidable and modular. The smaller consequences that are key are the little details to them; Anders and his fate, how the Arishok dies if at all, even smaller details like the mark Hawke makes on the city and the leadup to these big ticket items, (the Hubert quests, Gaspard, Gamlem, your companions) is the sort of short-term consequences that are present.

 

The only thing missing is epilogue screens I guess, which people hold in high regard for some reason because it tells you what happens after you're done. But honesty...it's not necessary in the end. We saw the story play out in real time.


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#97
pdusen

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Whereas in DA2 was like, "Spam strongest move, then use 2nd strongest, then 3rd strongest. Auto attack until moves come back up from cooldown. Set allies to whatever pre-programmed tactics settings they have access to and remind them to use a potion when they get low on Health."

 

Hate to break it to you, but this was exactly what my experience was like in DA:O. Except DA:O was about half as fast.


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#98
saladinbob

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I thought it was 1st of Jan, not 1st of April?



#99
SNascimento

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I thought DAO combat was bad, but then I played Baldur's Gate 2 and I started thinking it's positively terrible. The combat from DA2 was certainly better. 



#100
N7M

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If the posts of the DA forumites pertaining to ME:A are any indication of how this would be then no.