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[Vanilka]

^ To me, one of the best templar moments in the entire game series is during a DA2 cinematic when Meredith makes her entrance by draining a Saarebas of power and then killing him. It was really great and I always hold that up as an example of why templars, and their abilities, are needed on some level. It's a shame that their abilities haven't been showcased in this way more often in the games.
 
Yes, there are arguments to be made about templars being the military arm of the Chantry, the lyrium addiction, veritable jailers rather than guardians, and so on, but I am referring only to the practical use of their abilities.

 
Man, I love that scene. I'm all too happy to dispose of Meredith at the end of the game, but that moment is just so badass and I agree it demonstrates well why templars are useful. I'd definitely welcome it if the games got more into it. It was mostly in DAI that I realised we never got that much templar lore until recently. Which is a shame because the order, its abilities, its position in the food chain and in the world of Thedas are an incredibly interesting topic, in my opinion. It's one of the things I really liked about the third game. We finally got to see the templar side.
 
I must say that despite playing mages quite a lot, though, I've rarely got any sense of real threat from templars, besides my own headcanon, which is a little disappointing. DAO's templars did use their abilities in combat at least, if I remember correctly, but since DAII fighting templars has mostly meant fighting people in armour. Shame.

[vbibbi]

 
Man, I love that scene. I'm all too happy to dispose of Meredith at the end of the game, but that moment is just so badass and I agree it demonstrates well why templars are useful. I'd definitely welcome it if the games got more into it. It was mostly in DAI that I realised we never got that much templar lore until recently. Which is a shame because the order, its abilities, its position in the food chain and in the world of Thedas are an incredibly interesting topic, in my opinion. It's one of the things I really liked about the third game. We finally got to see the templar side.
 
I must say that despite playing mages quite a lot, though, I've rarely got any sense of real threat from templars, besides my own headcanon, which is a little disappointing. DAO's templars did use their abilities in combat at least, if I remember correctly, but since DAII fighting templars has mostly meant fighting people in armour. Shame.

Yeah imagine if DA2 or DAI had enemy templars nullifying magic during battle. That would increase the difficulty...

[Xilizhra]

^ To me, one of the best templar moments in the entire game series is during a DA2 cinematic when Meredith makes her entrance by draining a Saarebas of power and then killing him. It was really great and I always hold that up as an example of why templars, and their abilities, are needed on some level. It's a shame that their abilities haven't been showcased in this way more often in the games.

 

Yes, there are arguments to be made about templars being the military arm of the Chantry, the lyrium addiction, veritable jailers rather than guardians, and so on, but I am referring only to the practical use of their abilities.

Really, not so much. Mages can perform antimagic just as well as templars, and don't have to be drug addicts for it.

 

Also, I believe that one of the worst aspects of the templars is that they make people who would otherwise have been good, such as Barris, do evil. The Order abuses mages and corrupts its own (well, it did, before I annihilated it).

[nightscrawl]

Also, I believe that one of the worst aspects of the templars is that they make people who would otherwise have been good, such as Barris, do evil. The Order abuses mages and corrupts its own (well, it did, before I annihilated it).

As I said, I was focusing solely on their magic negating abilities, not any of the other stuff so as to not clutter the thread with morality debates.

As for mages also having anti-magic, that's true, but the whole point is to have a non-mage force that can do it as well. Ideally, if the templars were to be used as a (secular, apart from the Chantry) police force against bad mages (which we know exist), they would also have mages in their ranks for additional/different anti-magic abilities, healing, and the other types of magical combat that mages do.

[Xilizhra]

As I said, I was focusing solely on their magic negating abilities, not any of the other stuff so as to not clutter the thread with morality debates.

As for mages also having anti-magic, that's true, but the whole point is to have a non-mage force that can do it as well. Ideally, if the templars were to be used as a (secular, apart from the Chantry) police force against bad mages (which we know exist), they would also have mages in their ranks for additional/different anti-magic abilities, healing, and the other types of magical combat that mages do.

If mages are going to be separated as a society, the templars would all have to be mages themselves; you can't have a community policed by those who don't belong to it, or at least it's quite a bad idea.

[Riot Inducer]

 
I must say that despite playing mages quite a lot, though, I've rarely got any sense of real threat from templars, besides my own headcanon, which is a little disappointing. DAO's templars did use their abilities in combat at least, if I remember correctly, but since DAII fighting templars has mostly meant fighting people in armour. Shame.

Yeah in DA:O Templars were proper scary to fight as a mage. I remember there was one room in the circle tower that had a bunch of mind controlled Templars in it, if they were high enough level to have the one smite ability they could easily insta-kill any of your mages if you weren't careful.

[Vanilka]

Yeah in DA:O Templars were proper scary to fight as a mage. I remember there was one room in the circle tower that had a bunch of mind controlled Templars in it, if they were high enough level to have the one smite ability they could easily insta-kill any of your mages if you weren't careful.

 

No kidding! The Smite is terrifying. Especially when you fight several templars at the same time and they decide to keep bombing you. You don't even have to be a mage. It still deals some spirit damage and can stun you, if I recall correctly. DAO templars were some seriously mean SOBs. Heck, they drained mana just by making contact which could quickly render a mage pretty much harmless. Got to love the bastards. I really had to keep my mages far away from them and I remember the room you speak of very well, heh.

[berelinde]

As I said, I was focusing solely on their magic negating abilities, not any of the other stuff so as to not clutter the thread with morality debates.

As for mages also having anti-magic, that's true, but the whole point is to have a non-mage force that can do it as well. Ideally, if the templars were to be used as a (secular, apart from the Chantry) police force against bad mages (which we know exist), they would also have mages in their ranks for additional/different anti-magic abilities, healing, and the other types of magical combat that mages do.

Interestingly enough, according to Ameridan, the Seekers, which became the Templar Order once did include mages in its ranks. Ameridan himself was a mage.

 

The problem was that someone along the line had good intentions. People fear what they don't understand, and with the mages sequestered in their towers, that fear quickly became magic. Forbidding mages from the ranks of the templars made them more trustworthy to a magic-fearing public, so it was done. The templars now had authority over mages, but there were no longer any mages among them as advocates for the group they were supposed to be protecting. There's inherent danger in giving power to people who won't have to live with the consequences, but nobody anticipated it. How could they? Everyone had the best of intentions, and I say that without sarcasm. It was kinda like a glacier. It took a long, long time to happen, it was unstoppable, and the effects were devastating.

 

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the Templar Order was expanded to include mages once again. Clearly, there needs to be some way to police mages (and templars!) who misuse their abilities, just like there needs to be some way to police ordinary citizens everywhere. Perhaps creating them as a task force within secular police organizations is a better idea than tying their role to the Chantry. It would place the emphasis on the job - keeping order and protecting the rights of all citizens regardless of magical ability - instead of making it into some kind of divine mandate.

[Qun00]

I've always found it strange how the templars as enemy npcs never use magic negating abilities against you.

[greenbrownblue]

Simply because he a Cully-Wully and every gurl loves him ! He's adorable :3 !

[BansheeOwnage]

As I said, I was focusing solely on their magic negating abilities, not any of the other stuff so as to not clutter the thread with morality debates.

As for mages also having anti-magic, that's true, but the whole point is to have a non-mage force that can do it as well. Ideally, if the templars were to be used as a (secular, apart from the Chantry) police force against bad mages (which we know exist), they would also have mages in their ranks for additional/different anti-magic abilities, healing, and the other types of magical combat that mages do.

 

Interestingly enough, according to Ameridan, the Seekers, which became the Templar Order once did include mages in its ranks. Ameridan himself was a mage.

 

The problem was that someone along the line had good intentions. People fear what they don't understand, and with the mages sequestered in their towers, that fear quickly became magic. Forbidding mages from the ranks of the templars made them more trustworthy to a magic-fearing public, so it was done. The templars now had authority over mages, but there were no longer any mages among them as advocates for the group they were supposed to be protecting. There's inherent danger in giving power to people who won't have to live with the consequences, but nobody anticipated it. How could they? Everyone had the best of intentions, and I say that without sarcasm. It was kinda like a glacier. It took a long, long time to happen, it was unstoppable, and the effects were devastating.

 

It would be interesting to see what would happen if the Templar Order was expanded to include mages once again. Clearly, there needs to be some way to police mages (and templars!) who misuse their abilities, just like there needs to be some way to police ordinary citizens everywhere. Perhaps creating them as a task force within secular police organizations is a better idea than tying their role to the Chantry. It would place the emphasis on the job - keeping order and protecting the rights of all citizens regardless of magical ability - instead of making it into some kind of divine mandate.

I've always thought it would be cool if the Templars included mages in their ranks too. To quote the Inquisitor: "Who knows the dangers of magic better than a mage?"

 

And I agree that it's a shame they almost never use their abilities in-story as well as in combat. I feel like we don't get a proper sense of just how powerful they are, as well as how scary they should be to the average mage. Which also always made me wonder why mages (or at least apostates) don't train with swords or bows and wear more armour.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Actually, red templars can use anti-magic abilities if you have the evolved enemies challenge activated.

[BansheeOwnage]

Actually, red templars can use anti-magic abilities if you have the evolved enemies challenge activated.

I'm not saying that's bad, but honestly it's too little, too late, considering it's an optional difficulty setting that only people who paid for DLC have the option of using, and after many people have done most of their playthroughs, at that.

[Asdrubael Vect]

 Which also always made me wonder why mages (or at least apostates) don't train with swords or bows and wear more armour.

By the lore mages always was and still wear armors and weapons as nonmages do and they are the best smiths and crafters in DA universe, it is since Elvennan and Ancient Tevinter and you still can see statues and item descriptionm there is plenty artifacts and swords what was mages as with Hessarian blade and etc

 

south circle mages was banned to have and train to use weapons as wearing armors so templars would not become 100% useless even against weak and untraied south mages

 

with apostages in DAI(cos we have mages with weapons in DAO) game we have a gameplay stuff forced limitation as with healing magic and other things for the sake of "classes" or companions where you need some to open something or bash a wall with leg

 

I hope Bio did not screw Tevinter and mages in DA4

[berelinde]

 Which also always made me wonder why mages (or at least apostates) don't train with swords or bows and wear more armour.

The Inquisition soldier who's gone AWOL in JoH... Grandin?... is a mage. He became a soldier and trained with a sword because he wasn't any good at combat magic.

[GoldenGail3]

The Inquisition soldier who's gone AWOL in JoH... Grandin?... is a mage. He became a soldier and trained with a sword because he wasn't any good at combat magic.

I think he'd feel like crap after seeing my Amell cut through enemies like butter with her Combat magic, lol.

[nightscrawl]

Which also always made me wonder why mages (or at least apostates) don't train with swords or bows and wear more armour.

Actually, red templars can use anti-magic abilities if you have the evolved enemies challenge activated.

Both of these have to do with the intersection of gameplay and storytelling, which sometimes mesh badly. Aside from unique NPCs with a specific background and a story to tell, there can't really be that sort of blurring of the class divide because of gameplay reasons. Warriors hit things and tank; rogues hit things, shoot bows, and are stealthy; mages blow s*** up, act as support (weaken enemies), and heal.

Having a mage, for the player and NPCs, who can do those things and be physical gives one class too many advantages. True, there is the Arcane Warrior and now Knight Enchanter spec, but those are optional specializations that not every mage player takes, and not the way the class is designed from the ground up.

 

 

That said, I do think that, gameplay aside, a natural progression of magic using culture would be to have mages also trained in physical combat, whether that is hand-to-hand for self defense or in using the staff as a weapon. If this were real life, I'd also think it would be likely that Tevinter would have developed a fighting school to accomplish this.

[BansheeOwnage]

The Inquisition soldier who's gone AWOL in JoH... Grandin?... is a mage. He became a soldier and trained with a sword because he wasn't any good at combat magic.

Right, thanks for reminding me. I thought that was cool. I wish there were more examples like him, and also examples of skilled mages who used conventional weapons as well, even if they only used - say - spirit healing or buffing/debuffing spells.

 

@Nightscrawl I get that, I guess I just wish there was less gameplay-story segregation.