21 réponses à ce sujet

[Pokemario]

If you import a World State in which Wynne was killed in DA:O, does Cole mention Evangeline dying? And did Rhys die too as a consequence, as Evangeline wasn't there to stop him from going to the Conclave?

[Qun00]

What does Wynne have to do with this?

[Evamitchelle]

What does Wynne have to do with this?

 

Have you read Asunder? Wynne plays a pretty significant part in it.

 

I think the event of Asunder are meant to have happened no matter what, it's just that some of the details might be different. So basically, Rhys and Evangeline always make it out alive to show up in war table missions. 

[nightscrawl]

Yes, Asunder is one of those examples where the devs' own canon, in this case David Gaider as he wrote it, supersedes the player choice. The character of Cole would not have existed to be in DAI without the novel Asunder. The character Rhys was heavily involved in Cole's character development, and his mother Wynne was heavily involved in the events of Asunder. So unfortunately, the player canon is ignored with regard to Wynne in that instance. If she had died in DAO, then she wouldn't be around for Asunder, and if she wasn't around for Asunder, DAI would be quite different, not only because of Cole, but because of how those events affected the mage/templar conflict.

 

BUT, you can also look at it as Wynne being a special case. Her personal quest in DAO reveals that she carries a spirit of faith that is able to save her from real death -- she is technically already dead, but just on the very brink, being kept alive by the spirit. So, Wynne is similar to Leliana in that sense of being able to survive regardless of what the player did, and there are actual in-game lore reasons for this. This may not please some players, but that's how it is.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Wynne is dead if you killed her , it is just one of those (one of many) ridiculous situations in dragon age caused by import (also writers overusing returning characters) where no matter what you do result of your choices is the same despite it shouldn't be.

[Pokemario]

BUT, you can also look at it as Wynne being a special case. Her personal quest in DAO reveals that she carries a spirit of faith that is able to save her from real death -- she is technically already dead, but just on the very brink, being kept alive by the spirit. So, Wynne is similar to Leliana in that sense of being able to survive regardless of what the player did, and there are actual in-game lore reasons for this. This may not please some players, but that's how it is.

 

Yes, this seems to be a very good explanation! Thanks, everyone

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yes, this seems to be a very good explanation! Thanks, everyone

As i said said above, if Wynne was killed unlike Leliana she stays dead. Wynne unless killed always shows up in awakening in matter related to Asunder (mages trying to separate from chantry). Truth is that it is just poor writing skills on writers part that lead to such situation, pretty much thing if Alistair was killed when it comes to his comic series.

 

Also being possessed by spirit/demon doesn't make you immortal, Anders was confirmed to be dead if killed and pretty much same was in case of every other abomnation.

[Evamitchelle]

As i said said above, if Wynne was killed unlike Leliana she stays dead. Wynne unless killed always shows up in awakening in matter related to Asunder (mages trying to separate from chantry). Truth is that it is just poor writing skills on writers part that lead to such situation, pretty much thing if Alistair was killed when it comes to his comic series.

 

Also being possessed by spirit/demon doesn't make you immortal, Anders was confirmed to be dead if killed and pretty much same was in case of every other abomnation.

 

Anders also took a sword straight through the chest and lived. Wynne outright tells us that the spirit is what's keeping her alive. And the comics aren't supposed to be canon, while the events of Asunder and TME are directly referenced in-game. 

[Gervaise]

Different spirits respond in in different ways.    Anders had Justice as his cohabitee.   Justice saved him the first time he was struck a fatal blow because he had still had his mission to perform and it was not justice for him to die at that time.   Then Justice allowed Anders to die at the hand of Hawke because his mission had been fulfilled (blowing up the Chantry which to Justice/Vengeance was appropriate both in terms of everything bad that the Chantry had allowed to be done to mages and also as a catalyst for further action).    However, is was also Justice that Anders should die for the deaths he had caused.  

 

If you kill Leliana a lyrium faith spirit takes her place to continue her mission, it would seem something similar to Cole since it doesn't possess her corpse but simply becomes a physical manifestation of her with her identity and personality.

 

Wynne's spirit was also a faith spirit.   It prevented her death the first time and no doubt would have done so a second time if your Warden killed her.   Finally, Wynne herself voluntarily gave up the spirit to save someone else, at which point she died because the spirit was all that was keeping her alive.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Anders also took a sword straight through the chest and lived. Wynne outright tells us that the spirit is what's keeping her alive. And the comics aren't supposed to be canon, while the events of Asunder and TME are directly referenced in-game. 

 

The comics aren't supposed to be canon though. 

 

Aside he was in Justice mode that doesn't make him immortal , Anders can be killed as any other person only when Justice takes control it is harder.She tells you that spirit is keeping her alive (spirit is only thing that keeps her alive, that is why she dies after she transfers spirit to Evangeline) , not that she can't be killed. Comics and Books aren't canon because both comics and books (save for Stolen Throne and The Calling) follow bioware world-state DG said that events in books and comics may be different or not happen at all in different world state. Tough DG also specifically said that only events that happen regardless of player choices are canon.

 

Some events from books and comics are canon because they are refered in Inquisition and happen regardless of player choices.

 

Wynne , is dead as she doesn't appear in daa if killed.

 

 

Different spirits respond in in different ways.    Anders had Justice as his cohabitee.   Justice saved him the first time he was struck a fatal blow because he had still had his mission to perform and it was not justice for him to die at that time.   Then Justice allowed Anders to die at the hand of Hawke because his mission had been fulfilled (blowing up the Chantry which to Justice/Vengeance was appropriate both in terms of everything bad that the Chantry had allowed to be done to mages and also as a catalyst for further action).    However, is was also Justice that Anders should die for the deaths he had caused.  

 

If you kill Leliana a lyrium faith spirit takes her place to continue her mission, it would seem something similar to Cole since it doesn't possess her corpse but simply becomes a physical manifestation of her with her identity and personality.

 

Wynne's spirit was also a faith spirit.   It prevented her death the first time and no doubt would have done so a second time if your Warden killed her.   Finally, Wynne herself voluntarily gave up the spirit to save someone else, at which point she died because the spirit was all that was keeping her alive.

 

If spirit would make you immortal , then practically every mage would be immortal as it would be ridiculously easy to achieve. Anders can also die fighting Hawke.You make a lot of assumptions on what Justice wanted , and it was Anders who wanted to die not Justice if i recall.

 

How do you know it was faith spirit because if i recall it was nowhere stated , but also what spirit impersonating someone has to do with anything?

 

Once again you take guess , it revived her when spirit possessed her nowhere is said that she can't die in fact she even tells you she can die from bandit arrow when disscussing dying with you , in fact as i said killing her is only scenario where she doesn't reappear in daa, what is pretty much telling .  

[Gervaise]

It is not ridiculously easy to become immortal through the use of a spirit because they vary in type and power.    Normally it seems to require a faith spirit, which are extremely rare and difficult to attract and may offer protection without actually going as far as to prevent death.    Justice would also seem to have been a powerful spirit and in the short story about Anders before he came to Kirkwall, recounting how he originally came to join with Justice, the wardens and Templars he is with seem to notice something is amiss and attack him.   Then Anders revives and finds himself surrounded by corpses.   The only logical assumption is that Justice prevented his death

 

If you killed Leliana on your play through (which I didn't but I looked on You Tube) then at the end of Trespasser it is revealed that all along Leliana was really a spirit and if she is not Divine, it departs presumably because its mission has been fulfilled.   I don't think they specifically stated it was a faith spirit but given everything we know about her, what other spirit would it be?

 

I'm not saying they didn't ignore certain things they said in DAO with regard to Wynne but given the above two examples, it is not too great a stretch to think that is how they explain Wynne still being around in Asunder.   

 

Elves were apparently all immortal until Solas raised the Veil.    That has to have something to do with spirits, either they were spirits that became more material and shutting off the Fade increased the effect or simply having no Veil allows them to tap directly into the magic of the Fade for their sustenance.   However, there is no corresponding memory among humans about immortality and yet they appeared on the continent before Solas raised the Veil.   This is why I am guessing that immortality has something to do with spirits, either being one or being connected to one.   Even though we were told Mythal was murdered, it turned out that she lived on and Solas admits that the "First of his People are not so easily killed".

[TheKomandorShepard]

It is not ridiculously easy to become immortal through the use of a spirit because they vary in type and power.    Normally it seems to require a faith spirit, which are extremely rare and difficult to attract and may offer protection without actually going as far as to prevent death.    Justice would also seem to have been a powerful spirit and in the short story about Ander before he came to Kirkwall, recounting how he originally came to join with Justice, the wardens and Templars he is with seem to notice something is amiss and attack him.   Then Anders revives and finds himself surrounded by corpses.   The only logical assumption is that Justice prevented his death

 

If you killed Leliana on your play through (which I didn't but I looked on You Tube) then at the end of Trespasser it is revealed that all along Leliana was really a spirit and if she is not Divine, it departs presumably because its mission has been fulfilled.   I don't think they specifically stated it was a faith spirit but given everything we know about her, what other spirit would it be?

 

I'm not saying they didn't ignore certain things they said in DAO with regard to Wynne but given the above two examples, it is not too great a stretch to think that is how they explain Wynne still being around in Asunder.   

 

By your logic it would be , all it would be required is possession and boom you are immortal hell avvars and seers do such thing .Of course Justice prevented his death but Anders didn't die in first place only took blow that would be fatal for normal person and brushed it off, but that doesn't not mean he is immortal. Pretty much things you are saying aren't supported because nowhere in series is said that spirits make you immortal as far it goes it only revived people upon possession. In fact , even demons should do trick because Justice was corrupted into demon.

 

We don't even know if that was spirit or something else (tied to titans), considering connection to the lyrium and then fact Leliana is excatcly the same as normal Leliana.Compassion or knowledge?

 

Wynne is in Asunder only because it specifically follows world-state where she was alive and helped HoF defeat blight. Aside from mentioning lack of evidence that possession grants you immortality and as far it goes only it revives you upon possession and pretty much fact that Wynne stays down so does Anders if killed , plus Wynne said she can be killed, oust that spirit grants you immortality.   

[nightscrawl]

No one is actually saying that they are "immortal." There is a difference between being unable to die, and having one's death prevented. This is why I said that Wynne is "technically already dead" because the spirit was keeping her alive, which is why she truly dies in Asunder when she relinquishes the spirit to someone else.

[thats1evildude]

Or perhaps another senior enchanter took Wynne's place in the events of Asunder. The story is not absolutely contingent on her appearance; all that would really need to change is that Evangeline wasn't mortally wounded in the fight with Lambert. Also, said mage would need to find another way to defeat the pride demon at Adamant.

[TheKomandorShepard]

No one is actually saying that they are "immortal." There is a difference between being unable to die, and having one's death prevented. This is why I said that Wynne is "technically already dead" because the spirit was keeping her alive, which is why she truly dies in Asunder when she relinquishes the spirit to someone else.

Then what is point, she was like leliana killed by the warden and spirit only was respirator for her.

[Iakus]

Yes, Asunder is one of those examples where the devs' own canon, in this case David Gaider as he wrote it, supersedes the player choice. The character of Cole would not have existed to be in DAI without the novel Asunder. The character Rhys was heavily involved in Cole's character development, and his mother Wynne was heavily involved in the events of Asunder. So unfortunately, the player canon is ignored with regard to Wynne in that instance. If she had died in DAO, then she wouldn't be around for Asunder, and if she wasn't around for Asunder, DAI would be quite different, not only because of Cole, but because of how those events affected the mage/templar conflict.

 

BUT, you can also look at it as Wynne being a special case. Her personal quest in DAO reveals that she carries a spirit of faith that is able to save her from real death -- she is technically already dead, but just on the very brink, being kept alive by the spirit. So, Wynne is similar to Leliana in that sense of being able to survive regardless of what the player did, and there are actual in-game lore reasons for this. This may not please some players, but that's how it is.

I believe the events in Asunder are part of a "default" setting they have specifically for writing stories.  Like Alistair being king an Sten being the Arishok in "The Silent Grove/Those Who Speak/Until We Sleep"

 

If Wynne was dead (or Shale for that matter), events would still have played out, but would have happened differently.  Rhys and Evangeline likely would have survived anyway.  And Cole would have done what he had done.  But the circumstances would have been different.  

 

Asunder was just that version of events.

[nightscrawl]

I believe the events in Asunder are part of a "default" setting they have specifically for writing stories.  Like Alistair being king an Sten being the Arishok in "The Silent Grove/Those Who Speak/Until We Sleep"

 

If Wynne was dead (or Shale for that matter), events would still have played out, but would have happened differently.  Rhys and Evangeline likely would have survived anyway.  And Cole would have done what he had done.  But the circumstances would have been different.  

 

Asunder was just that version of events.

 

Cole specifically mentions Wynne saving Evangeline at one point, so the Asunder canon carries over into the games. Er, well, this is as part of one of his dialogues where he rambles on, so I don't actually know if it changes based on one's imported world state. He mentions how Rhys's mother would "talk to spirits, but not to him," and that "she died to save a templar that he loved."

 

 

Then what is point, she was like leliana killed by the warden and spirit only was respirator for her.

 

I don't see why this is a bad thing? This is just how they wanted things to play out. Not everything has a point.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Cole specifically mentions Wynne saving Evangeline at one point, so the Asunder canon carries over into the games. Er, well, this is as part of one of his dialogues where he rambles on, so I don't actually know if it changes based on one's imported world state. He mentions how Rhys's mother would "talk to spirits, but not to him," and that "she died to save a templar that he loved."

 

 

 

I don't see why this is a bad thing? This is just how they wanted things to play out. Not everything has a point.

 

So then you didn't test it on world state where wynne was killed? If it is till there it is either retcon , bug or they just overlooked it.

 

What is bad thing? If you are talking about them intending bring Wynne to life pretty much they didn't , as i said evidence supports opposite. 

[Iakus]

Cole specifically mentions Wynne saving Evangeline at one point, so the Asunder canon carries over into the games. Er, well, this is as part of one of his dialogues where he rambles on, so I don't actually know if it changes based on one's imported world state. He mentions how Rhys's mother would "talk to spirits, but not to him," and that "she died to save a templar that he loved."

 

But does he say the same thing with a dead Wynne import?  That's the real question.

 

Otherwise my point stands.

[nightscrawl]

Well I did say that I didn't know if he did or not. I'm not going to test it as I would have to play a significant chunk of the game with a character and a world state I have no interest in, simply for a forum discussion, which I'm not inclined to do.

[BSpud]

Truth is that it is just poor writing skills on writers part

 

Lol

[TheKomandorShepard]

Lol

That is sadly nothing but true ,bioware is terrible when it comes import feature, or at least DA team because ME did somewhat proper job with import.