51 réponses à ce sujet

[VampireSoap]

did they tell us in DAO that Dalish elves live longer than normal humans and city elves?

[Dai Grepher]

1. The elvehn lost their immortality because Solas cut them off from the Fade. It had nothing to do with the evanuris being banished.

 

2. The Dalish living longer (which I don't recall being stated in DA:O) would not be contradicted by losing their immortality. They could still live a year longer on average than humans and the statement would still be true.

[Riot Inducer]

Pretty easy to explain Dalish living longer than city elves at least. Poverty/poor living conditions would bring it down quite a bit without the racial violence that they have to suffer in some areas. There's also the whole thing with diseases; plagues can sweep through populated areas like mad but aren't likely to reach isolated/mobile communities like the Dalsih. Even if they did it'd only ever be one clan affected. 

[Scuttlebutt101]

 

1. The elvehn lost their immortality because Solas cut them off from the Fade. It had nothing to do with the evanuris being banished.

 

2. The Dalish living longer (which I don't recall being stated in DA:O) would not be contradicted by losing their immortality. They could still live a year longer on average than humans and the statement would still be true.

Master Ilen said that his father fought in a war of Dales, so at least one of them had to be centuries old.

[Patchwork]

 

 

Master Ilen said that his father fought in a war of Dales, so at least one of them had to be centuries old.

 

 

And by the timeline in Marethari's backsotry the Dalish warden has to be in their 50s.

 

BW errors or clan Sabrae has some ancient elves in their midsts.

[Wulfram]

The writers don't always seem to have been on the same page in this

In 2012, David Gaider said in an interview
http://swooping-is-b...com/1286233.htm
"City elves have the same lifespans as humans. They call them shemlen because it's an ancient word...occasionally city elves will use some words that are elven without really understanding where they really come from. So it's a derogatory term, and that's all it is to them when they say shem, the short version, they call humans that even though the reasons for that word no longer exist. Dalish tend to live longer. We're not talking into Tolkienesque numbers of years here. The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live. There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years. It's going to vary but for the city elves, the elves that live inside human cities, they don't have exceptional lifespans at all."


But in 2013, Mary Kirby said
http://forum.bioware...est/?p=14787884
"All the races have approximately the same life-span. But Qunari have sanitation and medicine, and so on average tend to live the longest. Dalish do not live any longer than city elves. The only Dalish to "reclaim" any immortality was Zathrian, and he was using a blood magic curse."

[LightningPoodle]

Dalish Elves probably live longer because they don't live in squalor.

[Tidus]

According to the story line in DA:O ALL elves live for centuries until the humans(Tevinters) did something to their blood that took away that ability. In those time Elves could enter into a awaking sleep called uthenera.

[Heimerdinger]

There was a Dalish elf that lived longer - Zathrian, and that was because he bound his life to the spirit of the forest and the warewolf curse. There was no other in-game mention of dalish elves living longer, we can only assume that city elves live less because of poor conditions in alienage life.

[Scuttlebutt101]

There was a Dalish elf that lived longer - Zathrian, and that was because he bound his life to the spirit of the forest and the warewolf curse. There was no other in-game mention of dalish elves living longer, we can only assume that city elves live less because of poor conditions in alienage life.

Master Ilen.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The writers don't always seem to have been on the same page in this

In 2012, David Gaider said in an interview
http://swooping-is-b...com/1286233.htm
"City elves have the same lifespans as humans. They call them shemlen because it's an ancient word...occasionally city elves will use some words that are elven without really understanding where they really come from. So it's a derogatory term, and that's all it is to them when they say shem, the short version, they call humans that even though the reasons for that word no longer exist. Dalish tend to live longer. We're not talking into Tolkienesque numbers of years here. The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live. There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years. It's going to vary but for the city elves, the elves that live inside human cities, they don't have exceptional lifespans at all."


But in 2013, Mary Kirby said
http://forum.bioware...est/?p=14787884
"All the races have approximately the same life-span. But Qunari have sanitation and medicine, and so on average tend to live the longest. Dalish do not live any longer than city elves. The only Dalish to "reclaim" any immortality was Zathrian, and he was using a blood magic curse."

 

Yeah this seems to be it. Plus, there may have been some old concepts in the development cylce that were never fully removed from Origins.

[Tidus]

Heimerdinger, There is reference to the Elves long levity and how the humans changed the Elves blood.. You need to listen to the story teller in the Dalish camp when you go to talk to him about Tamlens funeral. Also in DA:2 Merrill mentions Uthenera when you are on the way to finish Flemeth's Quest..

 

I realize  a lot of people rush through their games but,some times it pays to slow down and smell the roses. Also,the Dalish refused to submit to human rule like the city Elves and there no real difference between the two since the Dalish is hunted down and killed that's why they don't stay long in one spot and do their best to avoid contact with shemlins exception being in small villages for trade..

[katerinafm]

Healthy diet and a stress/shemlen free life?

[Ashagar]

Hmm with the dalish, they have have generally better living conditions. In fact I supect the poor humans in the countryside likely also have a better life expectancy than the poor humans in the the southern Thadasian cities given the lack of sewage and bathing facilities.

 

Seriously what is with fantasy worlds and the lack of bathing even medieval Europe had bathhouses everywhere with only the rich bathing at home because it wouldn't be proper to be seen with the lower classes bathing. it was only after the middle ages that Europeans stopped bathing frequently because medical science decided bathing was bad because allowed evil miasma to enter the body and make people sick.

[Dabrikishaw]

Master Ilen.

Ilen is immortal?

[Heimerdinger]

Heimerdinger, There is reference to the Elves long levity and how the humans changed the Elves blood.. You need to listen to the story teller in the Dalish camp when you go to talk to him about Tamlens funeral. Also in DA:2 Merrill mentions Uthenera when you are on the way to finish Flemeth's Quest..

 

Humans changed nothing, it was Fen'Harel all along. His Veil cost the elves their immortality. What the Dalish believe is mostly nonsense and has little to do with what really happened.

 

 

Master Ilen said that his father fought in a war of Dales, so at least one of them had to be centuries old.

 

The War of the Dales happened around the time of the second Blight (Glory Age i think) 700-800 years or so in the past. 

 

Master Illen speaks of the wars between the Dalish and the Clayne (allamari tribes from the lowlands). This happened after the fall of the Dales but it's not mentioned exactly when. Plus, writers screwing up their own timeline is nothing new, has happened before in DA.

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Ilen

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Clayne

 

And actual video, convo starts at around 23:30

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=bcNQtgo5A0U

 

As it stands there was only one elf who lived longer than usual in DAO - Zathrian, and he used blood magic to extend his life.

[Gervaise]

Dalish live longer than city elves because although it is still a hard life, it is relatively free of the squalor and disease ridden streets of the alienages.  They probably eat a better diet, keep fitter and overall are happier than the city elves.    There is a reference in the history of Arlathan that when the elves first encountered humans they started dying because of contracting human diseases and only after that realised they seemed to have lost their immortality as well.    This legend probably reflects the fact that elves do seem particularly susceptible to disease when living in cities and by cutting themselves off from human settlements the Dalish do remain largely disease free.   If the life span of races are in keeping with the general life span of nobles and commoners in the Middle Ages, then people will not be living to great ages.   Nobles might make it to 60 or 70 but the poor may be lucky to get to 50.  

 

There is a reflection by one of the Dalish Keepers in World of Thedas 2 concerning Zathrian and how difficult life must have been for him as the people he knew died off whilst he continued on.     They even ask if this compounded his sense of loss and whether he lost his ability to empathise with other people as a result.    The thing is if Zathrian lived for around 300 years and outlived not only the contemporaries of his youth but several more generations, then generally the Dalish cannot be living to that great an age, with the odd exception of course.  

 

As for Master Ilen, I thought that story was a bit odd at the time.    Subsequently it would seem that the writers realised this too, so instead of the Sabrae clan crossing the Frostbacks at the time of the fall of the Dales and attacking the human barbarians they found in the land later known as Ferelden, the story is now that they crossed into the Frostbacks at the time of the fall of the Dales and stayed living in that general area, avoiding human settlements by sticking to remote locations.   Then some fifty years before the events in DAO, the clan were involved in a clash with Avaar barbarians that left several members of the clan dead, caused Marethari to call upon Flemeth to exact revenge on their behalf, before she led them down into the lowlands of Ferelden.  Thus it would presumably be this conflict that Master Ilen was remembering that his father was involved in.   Unfortunately, in making this alteration to the story, they overlooked the fact that would make Warden Mahariel around 50 yeas old because their father was said to be Keeper before Marethari and thus as their father died at that time, they would have been born not more than 9 months later.

[Tidus]

Heimerdinger,Reread my post.. I said according to the story line  in DA:O..  At that time we did not know about Fen' Harel so any reference to him is pointless concerning the story line in DA:O. We didn't even know about Hawke and his family escaping the blight until DA:2.

 

In that light any knowledge that came out in DA:2 and DA:I is Elven history learned in future DA games and has no bearing on DA:O story line...

[VampireSoap]

Dalish live longer than city elves because although it is still a hard life, it is relatively free of the squalor and disease ridden streets of the alienages.  They probably eat a better diet, keep fitter and overall are happier than the city elves.......If the life span of races are in keeping with the general life span of nobles and commoners in the Middle Ages, then people will not be living to great ages.   Nobles might make it to 60 or 70 but the poor may be lucky to get to 50.  

 

There is a reflection by one of the Dalish Keepers in World of Thedas 2 concerning Zathrian and how difficult life must have been for him as the people he knew died off whilst he continued on......then generally the Dalish cannot be living to that great an age, with the odd exception of course.  

 

As for Master Ilen, I thought that story was a bit odd at the time.......Thus it would presumably be this conflict that Master Ilen was remembering that his father was involved in.   Unfortunately, in making this alteration to the story, they overlooked the fact that would make Warden Mahariel around 50 yeas old because their father was said to be Keeper before Marethari and thus as their father died at that time, they would have been born not more than 9 months later.

This is a very detailed response!!! Thank you, I wouldn't have said it better.

oh, and I'm glad that people in this thread have pointed out that living conditions might also be the cause of Dalish elves living longer. That's a very good point! I hadn't thought of that. But then again, Dalish elves are constantly at war with barbarians and the major civilizations. Presumably they die often in small skirmishes...so maybe that would also lower their overall life expectancy a bit?

[Tidus]

Dalish hunters are at high risks due to various things like humans and some animals like bears wolves etc and their armor isn't the best considering it leaves a lot of the body open to attack.. Their camp is open to attack from the noble that owns the land.

[Gervaise]

Anybody's life expectancy is going to be shorter due to violence.  In fact city elves are in constant fear of human vigilante groups, nobles killing them just because they can and in Orlais from Chevalier's using them for training runs, plus members of their own community of a more violent and criminal persuasion, so probably on balance there isn't much between the dangers of the city and the dangers of the wilds.     Human commoners run similar risks to alienage elves, whilst human nobles, particularly in Orlais and Tevinter, would seem to be at constant risk of assassination by rivals.

 

However, leaving that aside, there would still be differences in longevity according to the lifestyle of the particular communities.    Dalish live longer than the majority of city elves because their lives overall are more healthy.    They probably live longer than most human commoners too, even possibly human nobles because their lavish lifestyles may not actually be particularly healthy.   Not sure about dwarven nobles or the other castes but the casteless would likely have very low life expectancy, even without the violence.    As the developers are indicated, back in Par Vollen, the Qunari seem to have a healthier lifestyle overall, particularly as there aren't meant to be the differences in status we find in the rest of Thedas.    Naturally the warriors are at risk of a violent death and everyone on Seheron also, plus lifestyle generally may not be as healthy as in Par Vollen, so life expectancy is correspondingly shortened.

[Reznore57]

I guess there's some kind of retcon going on , from the David Gaider interview , it seems at first the idea was somehow human were harmful to elven lifespan .

It was pretty vague in DAO , it was a legend and the only fact ,that you could miss easily ,was Illen's father age.

It seems to me the writers decided to not go along with that , and I'm okay with it because you'd have to explain why it was like that beyond ssshhh it's magic, the creation of the veil works better imho.

 

Anyway it's not the only form of slightly clumsy retcon , hell in Witch Hunt , Morrigan goes "Oooh I was so very very wrong about mother , she's not after immortality but something far far more terrible , she's not human , not an abomination ooohhh".

What do we have in DAI ?Morrigan has no bloody clue what Flemeth truly is , and she still rants about her wanting to use her or Kieran to increase her lifespan and nothing else.

That something far far more terrible her mother was plotting , she  somehow  forgot about it.

[In Exile]

The writers don't always seem to have been on the same page in this

In 2012, David Gaider said in an interview
http://swooping-is-b...com/1286233.htm
"City elves have the same lifespans as humans. They call them shemlen because it's an ancient word...occasionally city elves will use some words that are elven without really understanding where they really come from. So it's a derogatory term, and that's all it is to them when they say shem, the short version, they call humans that even though the reasons for that word no longer exist. Dalish tend to live longer. We're not talking into Tolkienesque numbers of years here. The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live. There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years. It's going to vary but for the city elves, the elves that live inside human cities, they don't have exceptional lifespans at all."


But in 2013, Mary Kirby said
http://forum.bioware...est/?p=14787884
"All the races have approximately the same life-span. But Qunari have sanitation and medicine, and so on average tend to live the longest. Dalish do not live any longer than city elves. The only Dalish to "reclaim" any immortality was Zathrian, and he was using a blood magic curse."

 

They are 100% of the same mind. There's no contradiction at all in those quotes. DG is just being coy because his shtick with DA was always that Bioware would keep the mystery alive. That's why he, for example, tip-toed around every single lore revelation. 

 

Mary Kirby is clearly talking about "lifespan" when she says "Dalish do not live any longer". She just spilled the beans. 

 

Heimerdinger,Reread my post.. I said according to the story line  in DA:O..  At that time we did not know about Fen' Harel so any reference to him is pointless concerning the story line in DA:O. We didn't even know about Hawke and his family escaping the blight until DA:2.

 

In that light any knowledge that came out in DA:2 and DA:I is Elven history learned in future DA games and has no bearing on DA:O story line...

 

That doesn't make the Dalish's racist religious beliefs true. Bioware's been pretty open about having gotten their lore in place since before DA:O. While there may have been changes to their master story, how characters evolve, etc. the world was imagined from the start. The Dalish weren't immortal, the Dalish don't live longer apart from Zathrian's blood magic ritual, and Bioware writers absolutely suck at numbers.

 

 

I guess there's some kind of retcon going on , from the David Gaider interview , it seems at first the idea was somehow human were harmful to elven lifespan .

It was pretty vague in DAO , it was a legend and the only fact ,that you could miss easily ,was Illen's father age.

It seems to me the writers decided to not go along with that , and I'm okay with it because you'd have to explain why it was like that beyond ssshhh it's magic, the creation of the veil works better imho.

 

Anyway it's not the only form of slightly clumsy retcon , hell in Witch Hunt , Morrigan goes "Oooh I was so very very wrong about mother , she's not after immortality but something far far more terrible , she's not human , not an abomination ooohhh".

What do we have in DAI ?Morrigan has no bloody clue what Flemeth truly is , and she still rants about her wanting to use her or Kieran to increase her lifespan and nothing else.

That something far far more terrible her mother was plotting , she  somehow  forgot about it.

 

There's 0 retcon. Seriously. This is getting absurd. DG is had a shtick during DA:O - don't undercut his entire lore by blabbing about huge parts of the world that aren't revealed in the game. 

 

It was absolutely not at all vague in DA:O, besides, as I say, the Dalish having a completely racist fantasy that's obviously false in the meta-narrative sense because no writer is about to create a story where the views of racial supremacists turn out to be true. I mean, come on, this is a plot about the elven society falling apart because of exposure to the "mongrel" races. This is 1930s Germany era stuff. 

 

And WH isn't a retcon - that sounds like the writers losing track of the very precise things they said. Although I don't see how it follows that Morrigan needs to stop thinking Flemeth is trying to extend her life just because she isn't an abomination. 

[Reznore57]

 

There's 0 retcon. Seriously. This is getting absurd. DG is had a shtick during DA:O - don't undercut his entire lore by blabbing about huge parts of the world that aren't revealed in the game. 

 

It was absolutely not at all vague in DA:O, besides, as I say, the Dalish having a completely racist fantasy that's obviously false in the meta-narrative sense because no writer is about to create a story where the views of racial supremacists turn out to be true. I mean, come on, this is a plot about the elven society falling apart because of exposure to the "mongrel" races. This is 1930s Germany era stuff. 

 

And WH isn't a retcon - that sounds like the writers losing track of the very precise things they said. Although I don't see how it follows that Morrigan needs to stop thinking Flemeth is trying to extend her life just because she isn't an abomination. 

 

Errr...humans carrying an anti immortality disease was ment to be an echo of european coming to the US and bringing new diseases to the locals.Sometimes by accident , sometimes on purpose.

Not everything is about Dalish being racist...

 

And WH is some kind of retcon , Morrigan opens up a new sub plot , Flemeth is not only a danger to her daughter but to the whole world.That's what she claimed , and she tells you to warn the wardens about it because it's related to the Blight.

So tell me , where did this "Flemeth is a danger to the world " sub plot went?

[Tidus]

In Exile I fully agree about Bio Ware writers changing the master plan and being bad at numbers but,still that doesn't change the story line in DA:O.. The Dalish fully believe what history they have and they're not racist-that's a ugly word used way to much in relation to the Dalish simply because people can not understand their way.