51 réponses à ce sujet

[Almostfaceman]

The writers don't always seem to have been on the same page in this

In 2012, David Gaider said in an interview
http://swooping-is-b...com/1286233.htm
"City elves have the same lifespans as humans. They call them shemlen because it's an ancient word...occasionally city elves will use some words that are elven without really understanding where they really come from. So it's a derogatory term, and that's all it is to them when they say shem, the short version, they call humans that even though the reasons for that word no longer exist. Dalish tend to live longer. We're not talking into Tolkienesque numbers of years here. The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live. There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years. It's going to vary but for the city elves, the elves that live inside human cities, they don't have exceptional lifespans at all."


But in 2013, Mary Kirby said
http://forum.bioware...est/?p=14787884
"All the races have approximately the same life-span. But Qunari have sanitation and medicine, and so on average tend to live the longest. Dalish do not live any longer than city elves. The only Dalish to "reclaim" any immortality was Zathrian, and he was using a blood magic curse."

 

Probably because if any of the Dalish do live longer, it's not really by a substantial amount. Nothing of "story importance". 

[In Exile]

Errr...humans carrying an anti immortality disease was ment to be an echo of european coming to the US and bringing new diseases to the locals.Sometimes by accident , sometimes on purpose.

Not everything is about Dalish being racist...

 

And WH is some kind of retcon , Morrigan opens up a new sub plot , Flemeth is not only a danger to her daughter but to the whole world.That's what she claimed , and she tells you to warn the wardens about it because it's related to the Blight.

So tell me , where did this "Flemeth is a danger to the world " sub plot went?

 

No, it wasn't a disease, and it wasn't mean to be an echo. It's a racist fantasy about the mongrel races infecting your perfect society. That's how the Dalish see it. They don't see humans as carrying a "disease" that infected them. They see humans as the disease. That's why they come up with this "live apart from humans". Active segregation from people because you think they're made of disease is so absurdly racist, not even IRL racists groups espouse it. 

[PsychoBlonde]

1. The elvehn lost their immortality because Solas cut them off from the Fade. It had nothing to do with the evanuris being banished.

 

2. The Dalish living longer (which I don't recall being stated in DA:O) would not be contradicted by losing their immortality. They could still live a year longer on average than humans and the statement would still be true.

 

Zathrien's First in Da:O tells you that Zathrien has started to regain some of the elven immortality because he avoids humans so strenuously, so he's 400ish years old.  This turns out to be a complete lie--the reason why Zathrien is still alive is that he's bound to the curse on the werewolves and it's keeping him alive.  So basically the humans he hates are sustaining his life--and killing his clan.  It's a beautiful, horrible irony.

[Bad King]

No, it wasn't a disease, and it wasn't mean to be an echo. It's a racist fantasy about the mongrel races infecting your perfect society. That's how the Dalish see it. They don't see humans as carrying a "disease" that infected them. They see humans as the disease. That's why they come up with this "live apart from humans". Active segregation from people because you think they're made of disease is so absurdly racist, not even IRL racists groups espouse it. 

 

One need only look at the hostile context that the Dalish exist within to understand why such myths are so pervasive within certain Dalish communities. As Duncan narrates in the intro to the Dalish, they live in a world that "fears and despises them". We hear of Dalish who are brutalised by human bandits, tortured by Templars and chased out by angry, superstitious rabbles simply for having a different way of life. Such a belief has existed as a means of ensuring survival by discouraging young elves from actively seeking out humans as sadly, such expeditions often end in tragedy.

[VampireSoap]

No, it wasn't a disease, and it wasn't mean to be an echo. It's a racist fantasy about the mongrel races infecting your perfect society. That's how the Dalish see it. They don't see humans as carrying a "disease" that infected them. They see humans as the disease. That's why they come up with this "live apart from humans". Active segregation from people because you think they're made of disease is so absurdly racist, not even IRL racists groups espouse it. 

Angry liberal spotted. They see everything in the world (or fantasy fiction in this case) through "oppression" lenses. Everything is either sexist, racist, or homophobic in their eyes

[In Exile]

One need only look at the hostile context that the Dalish exist within to understand why such myths are so pervasive within certain Dalish communities. As Duncan narrates in the intro to the Dalish, they live in a world that "fears and despises them". We hear of Dalish who are brutalised by human bandits, tortured by Templars and chased out by angry, superstitious rabbles simply for having a different way of life.

 

I don't think the Dalish are justified in their racist myths anywhere near to the degree the CEs are justified, and funny enough the CEs are seemingly less racist. Also, the Dalish live pretty privileged lives. The biggest difficulties of their nomadic lifestyle are self-imposed - they're nomands by choice. That's not to say they haven't had it bad. They have. I just don't see their treatment as being in any way justification to their mythical racism. 

[Bad King]

I don't think the Dalish are justified in their racist myths anywhere near to the degree the CEs are justified, and funny enough the CEs are seemingly less racist. Also, the Dalish live pretty privileged lives. The biggest difficulties of their nomadic lifestyle are self-imposed - they're nomands by choice. That's not to say they haven't had it bad. They have. I just don't see their treatment as being in any way justification to their mythical racism. 

 

The Dalish way of life is self-imposed because their only other options are either to live in extreme squalor under the human boot in the cities or to create their own settled communities only to be destroyed by human communities that already lay claim to that land. That doesn't make it a privileged way of life by any means - they still struggle within a hostile environment and a harsh life can breed harsh attitudes that have helped them survive. It's difficult for the Dalish to completely reject racism when the dominant human society around them is constantly hostile and prejudiced towards them. 

[Ashagar]

Admittedly even amoung humans settled cultures and nomadic cultures historically and today generally have issues and conflicts with each other, such issues would likely be only made worse on both sides by the fact that one of the cultures involved are of a different religion and another race.

 

Though from the lore such issues seem vary in severity from region to region of thadas.

[Illegitimus]

did they tell us in DAO that Dalish elves live longer than normal humans and city elves?

 

<snort>  Dalish elves don't live in cities with awful sanitation, are expert herbalists with plenty of access to the needed herbs, all have a skill that gives them a bonus on health checks and all have access to healing magic from the keepers.  It would be inexplicable if they didn't live longer than City Elves, provided they avoid death by violence.  They aren't aging slower but they are healthier.  

[In Exile]

The Dalish way of life is self-imposed because their only other options are either to live in extreme squalor under the human boot in the cities or to create their own settled communities only to be destroyed by human communities that already lay claim to that land. That doesn't make it a privileged way of life by any means - they still struggle within a hostile environment and a harsh life can breed harsh attitudes that have helped them survive. It's difficult for the Dalish to completely reject racism when the dominant human society around them is constantly hostile and prejudiced towards them. 

 

I don't recall one instance of a permanent Dalish settlement that was raided. As I recall, the only negative outcome for the Hinterlands is with Zathrian alive, and that's where he is the one antagonizing the court. The only instance of a permanent settlement we know is Rivain, which is a long-standing one. 

 

The Dalish are a putatively sovereign group essentially taking resources from land a kingdom asserts sovereignty over. That's always going to create tension. 

 

And when I say their life is "privileged", I don't mean objectively. I mean relative to the CEs. I'm not talking about them rejecting racism. I'm just talking about them not having beliefs as part of their religion that are more offensive than IRL white supremacists. 

[ModernAcademic]

did they tell us in DAO that Dalish elves live longer than normal humans and city elves?

 

Because DA = King Arthur's legends+Lord of the Rings.

 

 

With the difference that elves in LoTR were actually interesting and handsome.

[Ghost Gal]

The writers don't always seem to have been on the same page in this

In 2012, David Gaider said in an interview
http://swooping-is-b...com/1286233.htm
"City elves have the same lifespans as humans. They call them shemlen because it's an ancient word...occasionally city elves will use some words that are elven without really understanding where they really come from. So it's a derogatory term, and that's all it is to them when they say shem, the short version, they call humans that even though the reasons for that word no longer exist. Dalish tend to live longer. We're not talking into Tolkienesque numbers of years here. The longer they've stayed away and their parents have stayed away from humanity, the longer they seem to live. There are exceptional individuals among them as well, Zathrian had lived for almost three hundred years. It's going to vary but for the city elves, the elves that live inside human cities, they don't have exceptional lifespans at all."


But in 2013, Mary Kirby said
http://forum.bioware...est/?p=14787884
"All the races have approximately the same life-span. But Qunari have sanitation and medicine, and so on average tend to live the longest. Dalish do not live any longer than city elves. The only Dalish to "reclaim" any immortality was Zathrian, and he was using a blood magic curse."

 

Indeed!

 

I think something similar happened during the production of DAI. One of the female writers (I think Mary Kirby again) wrote the party banter where Blackwall asks Solas why he hasn't seen any elves with beards, and Solas laughingly says, "You haven't met many elves." It wasn't until after the line was recorded that she thought to double-check with Gaider, who informed her that no, Thedas elves don't grow beards. Whoops.

 

As others have said though, even if they aren't magically related, it makes sense for Dalish Elves to live longer lives than city elves since they have access to better food, sanitation, magical healing, etc.

[Nefla]

BioWare doesn't plan ahead, that's why.

[Ghost Gal]

I don't recall one instance of a permanent Dalish settlement that was raided. As I recall, the only negative outcome for the Hinterlands is with Zathrian alive, and that's where he is the one antagonizing the court. 

 

Regardless of who's left in charge, something terrible happens to the Dalish settlement in the Hinterlands. It's so bad that King Alistair (if he's made king) feels compelled to apologize to Merrill for what happened to it, and promises to "make it up to your people" (implying they weren't the aggressors), but also can't bring himself to say what happened. (Time mark 1:40 - 2:00).

 

Regardless of what worldstate you import, even one where the Dalish were given the Hinterlands and Lanaya was left in charge, the Inquisitor can comb every inch of the Hinterlands and not find a single Dalish Clan.

 

You probably don't recall any Dalish settlements that were "raided" because none of them (save one) lasted that long.

 

The only instance of a permanent settlement we know is Rivain, which is a long-standing one.

 

And I'm sure it has nothing to do with Rivaini humans and culture being significantly more accepting of people of different races and religions than the rest of Thedas. :3

 

(I mean, heck, Rivaini humans and mages and Qunari and elves all successfully live together despite how the groups are all at each other's throats everywhere else in Thedas.)

 

The Dalish are a putatively sovereign group essentially taking resources from land a kingdom asserts sovereignty over. That's always going to create tension.

 

To be fair to the Dalish, humans took their sovereign kingdom. This wouldn't be an issue if they had land of their own to take resources from. 

 

"Then they should submit to human sovereignty if they're going to use human land and resources" you might say. Well, look how well that's worked out for city elves. 

 

You and Thedas humans have put them in an impossible situation where they can submit and live like beasts of burden at best, or rebel and get condemned as criminals, trespassers, and trouble-makers. Either way, they're the ones who lose. They can be "good" in human eyes but live like crap, or be "bad" in human eyes but be free to pursue a better quality of life. No wonder they chose the nomadic lifestyle.

 

You can't make everything the Dalish's fault.

[Bad King]

Here's a relevant Marethari quote:

 

"Although you hurt no one, these humans roused their nearby village against us. As everywhere, our people are not welcome here. We have stayed too long, and we must move on--quickly. Our clan could slaughter their entire village if we cared to... but at the cost of bringing their king's rage down on our heads. These people are simple and have simple fears. This is their land so we will go peacefully."

 

Other than the example that Revassan Lavellan gave, it's true that we don't hear about permanent Dalish settlements being raided, but as stated, that's because they never get to that stage - as the Dalish origin proves, angry villagers are willing to force them into conflict situations which makes it difficult to establish such settlements: their nomadic lifestyle is necessary for this reason. If only all human societies were as chilled as the Rivain!

[Aren]

 

So tell me , where did this "Flemeth is a danger to the world " sub plot went?

I did not took that as a retcon,it's just a matter of Morrigan's incompetence which isn't even surprising.

After all FLemeth had several centuries to be proved as a threat for the world,yet she was hardly that.

[Ghost Gal]

Here's a relevant Marethari quote:

 

"Although you hurt no one, these humans roused their nearby village against us. As everywhere, our people are not welcome here. We have stayed too long, and we must move on--quickly. Our clan could slaughter their entire village if we cared to... but at the cost of bringing their king's rage down on our heads. These people are simple and have simple fears. This is their land so we will go peacefully."

 

That's from the Dalish Origin, right? Where you spared the humans you and Tamlen found, then in thanks for your mercy they rallied a mob to chase your people away with torches and pitchforks? 

 

Other than the example that Revassan Lavellan gave, it's true that we don't hear about permanent Dalish settlements being raided, but as stated, that's because they never get to that stage - as the Dalish origin proves, angry villagers are willing to force them into conflict situations which makes it difficult to establish such settlements: their nomadic lifestyle is necessary for this reason. If only all human societies were as chilled as the Rivain!

 

Yep. While I don't blame the humans for being sore with Mahariel and Tamlen for holding them at arrow-point, they don't exactly incentivize the Dalish to show mercy to the next batch of humans who wander too close to their camp. Tamlen even tells them to their face that he wants to kill them so they can't go home and tell their villagers where they are ("leave no witnesses" and all that), but Mahariel can convince him to let them go since they haven't done anything wrong... then they thank Mahariel's mercy and vindicate Tamlen's fears by immediately raising a mob to violently chase your people out. So much for being nice to humans. It clearly works out in the Dalish's favor. [/sarcasm]

 

Something similar happens in DAA. Velanna may be a piece of work, but she makes a good point: her clan camped near a human village and kept their distance, minding their own business, then the humans rudely and violently demanded they leave, and threatened to burn down the whole forest to make them move on. "They were willing to burn down the whole forest because they thought we might steal a few sheep!" (or something like that).

 

It's not stated in-game, but I've heard that a DA2 Act 3 codex entry reveal that the Dalish found it difficult to remain on Sundermount for so long because the local Templars started harassing them, and even kidnapped an elven child.

 

Even the best of Inquisitor Lavellan's stories imply that humans were unfriendly to Dalish, and that even when they were on their best behavior they often had to move on because humans attacked or chased them away.

 

I know the Dalish aren't innocent little cupcakes and often contribute to the tension themselves, but the game lore makes it clear that part of the reason they won't stay in one place for too long is for their own protection. Humans are often violent and chase out Dalish whether they're on their best behavior or not, which makes it difficult for them to stay in one place and forge bonds with local human populations even if they want to. As one of the writers said, being nomadic makes it hard for humans to hit a moving target, and the Dalish have every reason to prefer being a moving target to a sitting one.

[Qis]

Hmm with the dalish, they have have generally better living conditions. In fact I supect the poor humans in the countryside likely also have a better life expectancy than the poor humans in the the southern Thadasian cities given the lack of sewage and bathing facilities.

 

Seriously what is with fantasy worlds and the lack of bathing even medieval Europe had bathhouses everywhere with only the rich bathing at home because it wouldn't be proper to be seen with the lower classes bathing. it was only after the middle ages that Europeans stopped bathing frequently because medical science decided bathing was bad because allowed evil miasma to enter the body and make people sick.

 

There are a lot of water sources in Ferelden...Lake Calenhad, Lothering river, Drakon river....they all take bath in the rivers i guess...Haven also have river as i remember

 

[ModernAcademic]

BioWare doesn't plan ahead, that's why.

 

We're still waiting to know what the Old Gods are (DA 1). And then, suddenly, the main plot turns to elves (DA 3).

 

WTF Bioware

[AedanStarfang]

Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the whole Dalish immortality thing directly tied into Zathrian's grudge against the Werewolves/Witherfang, and so the rest of the clan thought they were starting to get their immortality back? Or at least Leliana or someone mentions that when confronting and telling Zathrian to end the curse.

[Ghost Gal]

There are a lot of water sources in Ferelden...Lake Calenhad, Lothering river, Drakon river....they all take bath in the rivers i guess...Haven also have river as i remember

 

 

Lots of water sources doesn't mean the water's clean. Especially not in big cities like Denerim.

 

Hundreds, if not thousands of people all living in squalid conditions, packed tightly on top of each another. Everyone has body funk to bathe, dirty clothes and dishes to clean, and daily sewage, all without pipes or plumbing. Where do you think all that dirty water and waste goes?

 

Answer: the water you see right there on the map. Throughout history people just threw their garbage and waste out the window into open gutters in the streets. Watershed often drove that garbage and sewage from the streets into the open rivers and lakes where people got their drinking and bathing water, or which flowed into the underground water currents that supplied their wells.

 

In fact, through most of human history, from ancient times all the way to the Victorian Era, before The Sanitation Movement of the mid-1800's, the life expectancy of people living in cities was lower than those who lived in the country. The death rate of people in cities exceeded the birth rate (the population being sustained by people who came to live in cities rather than the population born and raised there for generations), cities themselves were rifle with disease, plagues, and epidemics, and sewage and garbage (including table scraps, animal carcasses, and the remains of butchered animals) were left to fester in open gutters.

 

Again, huge populations of people living in one place, without pipes to bring clean water from a faraway source nor plumbing to carry dirty water far away. The water they get to drink and the water where all their waste goes is one and the same, right there in their backyards.

 

No wonder nomadic Dalish, who live in small numbers out in the wilderness where they can move around finding fresh game, fresh herbs and foliage to eat, and fresh, clean water sources (rivers and creeks not literally backed up with **** from the local village, town, or city), have longer lifespans.

[berelinde]

Regarding Master Ilen's father, the one who fought in a war of the Dales, did  he ever say which one? The region has had its share of trouble, and a war doesn't necessarily mean the war.

 

Plus, the writers at BioWare are really, really bad at math, and always have been. If anything, the're getting better at making the dates line up, despite the odd generation spacing. Heck, it's only a few decades. In NWN, they lost track of a few hundred years at one point. If they tell you that two events happened at the same time, you just have to roll with it.

 

Plus, when Origins came out, they weren't sure there would be a sequel. They've reconsidered a few points. I wouldn't call it "retcon" as much as "refinement". They bounce ideas around, narrow a definition here, expand a neglected area there, correct a contradiction somewhere else. And you absolutely cannot assume that lore is static. It evolves. And not everything was committed to written records in the first place, by the writers or by Thedosians. Even if the writers didn't deliberately create a race of people with mistaken beliefs about their own origin (which they totally did, and intentionally so), the Dalish are trying to remember events that happened a thousand or more years before. Treating every word of their stories as literal truth is a lot like expecting Roman mythology to be absolute fact. Or how about a less ridiculous example? The Moors occupied southern Spain about 800 years ago. We know a little bit about them because of literature (the Poem of the Cid), but mostly, we know practically nothing about their lives, or details about their legal systems, or about their daily diet, or about the ways in which their religion might have differed from modern Islam. And the Moors kept extensive written records! It was just a long time ago. We'll have forgotten some stuff, and we'll be looking at the rest through the filters of our modern experiences.

[Wulfram]

Regarding Master Ilen's father, the one who fought in a war of the Dales, did  he ever say which one? The region has had its share of trouble, and a war doesn't necessarily mean the war.

Well, he says they were one of the first tribes to flee the Dales, and talks about fighting the Clayne, who are a pre-Fereldan tribe.

[CronoDragoon]

We're still waiting to know what the Old Gods are (DA 1). And then, suddenly, the main plot turns to elves (DA 3).
 
WTF Bioware

Does anyone really believe at this point that the Old Gods and Elven Gods are unrelated as historical plot points?

[Ashagar]

Yes or at least that they aren't the forgotten ones or the banished elven god kings. Not everything has to do with the ancient elves after all even if they were the dominate faction in Thadas where their empire was centered and prehaps in the lands beyond where the ancient humans, Kossith and other mortal tribes likely lived.