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[o Ventus]

I never understood the love for Loghain. He was just cartoonishly paranoid about what he feared of the Orlesians and it made him incredibly stupid and blind to the Blight. When he wasn't acting out of paranoia, he was just an a**hole. He never had a compelling motive, and his reasons for his actions only barely lined up with what he did. He wasn't very good at all for me. Corypheus may have been a silly Saturday-morning cartoon villain, but I'll take a silly Saturday-morning cartoon villain over one that I just don't give even half a s*** about because he's so uninteresting.

[myahele]

I never understood the love for Loghain. He was just cartoonishly paranoid about what he feared of the Orlesians and it made him incredibly stupid and blind to the Blight. When he wasn't acting out of paranoia, he was just an a**hole. He never had a compelling motive, and his reasons for his actions only barely lined up with what he did. He wasn't very good at all for me.

 

I think it's mainly due to him being a main/key character in a book. The book gave him background info and from that perspective people can sympathize and/or understand why he did what he did. 

 

Corypheus ... not so much. We kinda have to dig deep to try to understand Corypheus' motivation based on what little outside codex we discover.

[o Ventus]

I think it's mainly due to him being a main/key character in a book. The book gave him background info and from that perspective people can sympathize and/or understand why he did what he did. 

 

Corypheus ... not so much. We kinda have to dig deep to try to understand Corypheus' motivation based on what little outside codex we discover.

 

It's not very hard to discern Corypheus' motivation for his actions. He assaulted the kingdom of heaven and was affronted when God wasn't there, so to speak. Not only that, but he was viciously twisted and physically mutated into a monster, part of a larger group of monsters who have, on numerous occasions, tried to exterminate all life in Thedas. Then when he wakes up from his magical coma, he finds that his once-great empire has fallen by the wayside and is something of a joke in the South, so he tries to make it great again (or so he puts it). On it's own, it's a fine enough motivation. Corypheus does kind of ruin it with his actions in DAI, but at least he has a kind-of valid reason behind what he does, and I can at least understand his want to return Tevinter to power.

 

He's 7 kinds of crazy like Loghain, but at least his story is actually interesting and he doesn't do too much that is actively counter-intuitive to his motive.

[Melbella]

Cory did well at Haven, then spent the rest of the game getting his ass kicked. The black-and-white villain and the invincible hero both seemed to be reactions to DA2 IMO.

 

There is that, but what gets me is the music. The "Elder One theme" just isn't scary, not even a little bit. It's more.....fanciful. A good villain needs good villain music aka Darth Vader or the Black Riders. Something to leave me quaking in my boots and fearing for my life.

[In Exile]

I never understood the love for Loghain. He was just cartoonishly paranoid about what he feared of the Orlesians and it made him incredibly stupid and blind to the Blight. When he wasn't acting out of paranoia, he was just an a**hole. He never had a compelling motive, and his reasons for his actions only barely lined up with what he did. He wasn't very good at all for me. Corypheus may have been a silly Saturday-morning cartoon villain, but I'll take a silly Saturday-morning cartoon villain over one that I just don't give even half a s*** about because he's so uninteresting.

Loghain is not only comically incompetent (seriously, he starts off his civil war by basically usurping power in the most needlessly visible way), but either a moron (somehow allies with the friendless traitor Arl Howe and doesn't realize he's evil) or actually evil (somehow allies with the friendless traitor Arl Howe and realizes he's evil). Plus the stuff Loghain then does is just awful e.g., slavery, and so on. 

 

Bioware scrapped the mind control by the AD plot, but honestly, they didn't bother re-writing the character to even make a lick of sense. And they insist he didn't plot with Arl Howe beforehand, making the entire HN origin and the alliance between Howe and Loghain rank insanity. 

[TEWR]

Cory was full of wasted untapped potential

 

Basically this. I and others see that Cory had a lot of potential as an antagonist but Bioware made him not just a caricature villain but an incompetent one as well. Their writing has seriously gone downhill since DAO.

 

I still call him my liege but only because of how I headcanon him and his plans.

[AnimalBoy]

I liked him better in Legacy.

[BSpud]

I still call him my liege

 

Uh, what?

[Medhia_Nox]

Corypheus is miles better than Solas for me... but, I will agree that his potential was wasted.

 

The Magisters were the characters we heard about from the very first minute of turning on DA:O.

 

These beings should have been THE ultimate evils on Thedas. 

 

I swear... the very basic lessons of writing an essay are lost.

[Sah291]

I liked him better in Legacy.

So did I.

Well, it's not that I didn't like Cory in DAI exactly, but I just... wished he had gotten more scenes/dialogue, because it felt like there was more to the character we didn't get to see, and his voice actor was also really good.

[vbibbi]

Corypheus is miles better than Solas for me... but, I will agree that his potential was wasted.

 

The Magisters were the characters we heard about from the very first minute of turning on DA:O.

 

These beings should have been THE ultimate evils on Thedas. 

 

I swear... the very basic lessons of writing an essay are lost.

Well, I would have enjoyed going in the other direction, turning the modern world's understanding of history on its head like it's done with ancient elves and spirits and the Veil.

 

Yes, the ancient magisters were TEH EVULS to us now, and caused the unleashing of darkspawn. But then we find out that they (via Cory) deeply regret this action and want to take it back. Humanize him and make him have more relateable motives of a crisis of faith rather than ultimate evil overlord. I know the game shows this, but I think it does so poorly and glosses over his character to the point where it's mostly left to headcanon.

 

I wanted to have Cory be more like Calpernia, where they want to fix things, but in a political manner instead of becoming a god-king. It's just so extreme and reduces Cory to the cartoon villain we see.

[ShadowLordXII]

Well, I would have enjoyed going in the other direction, turning the modern world's understanding of history on its head like it's done with ancient elves and spirits and the Veil.

 

Yes, the ancient magisters were TEH EVULS to us now, and caused the unleashing of darkspawn. But then we find out that they (via Cory) deeply regret this action and want to take it back. Humanize him and make him have more relateable motives of a crisis of faith rather than ultimate evil overlord. I know the game shows this, but I think it does so poorly and glosses over his character to the point where it's mostly left to headcanon.

 

I wanted to have Cory be more like Calpernia, where they want to fix things, but in a political manner instead of becoming a god-king. It's just so extreme and reduces Cory to the cartoon villain we see.

 

Enough "humanizing" and "historical twists". You do it too often and it gets old, predictable and won't elicit it's intended impact because people are expecting it.

Coryfish is fine as an evil overlord with no redeemable qualities, it's a character style can can work if enough effort is put into it and it fits well with his role and characterization.

Cory is way too prideful to feel remorse for the Second Sin, the only thing that he regrets is that he didn't get to see his god and he just takes that episode to mean that he would have to become a god himself. The game shouldn't try to waste its time trying to rub Cory's sob story in our faces and browbeat us into feeling bad for Corypheus when he's trying to destroy the world.

[vbibbi]

Enough "humanizing" and "historical twists". You do it too often and it gets old, predictable and won't elicit it's intended impact because people are expecting it.

Coryfish is fine as an evil overlord with no redeemable qualities, it's a character style can can work if enough effort is put into it and it fits well with his role and characterization.

Cory is way too prideful to feel remorse for the Second Sin, the only thing that he regrets is that he didn't get to see his god and he just takes that episode to mean that he would have to become a god himself. The game shouldn't try to waste its time trying to rub Cory's sob story in our faces and browbeat us into feeling bad for Corypheus when he's trying to destroy the world.

Well I didn't say we need to feel bad for him. We just need to understand his motivations somewhat, and there is very little relatable about someone with a god complex. Someone patriotic and who has made horrible mistakes in their past, sure. I don't enjoy evil overlords at all, as they are cardboard cutouts to knock down, not someone to challenge the protagonist. For me, a good antagonist can be a reflection of the protagonist or represent the darker aspect of the protagonist. Just as Cory is driven to power by his faith, so too can we play an Inquisitor who gains power through faith, whether their personal faith or the faith of the masses. And it would have been interesting to see a "but for the grace of Andraste" type of reflection in Cory. IMO

 

Also, if DA4 is indeed set in Tevinter, I think Bioware is going to have a challenge in setting the game in the land which to date has had only Fenris, Dorian, Krem and Mae presented as good people. Everyone else we meet is a cackling magister/potential evil overlord, and the reputation of the entire nation doesn't contradict this. Fenris, Dorian and Krem are all outside of Tevinter due to protesting some aspect of their homeland, so really only Mae remains as a nationalist Tevinter who isn't evil.

 

It would have been helpful if DAI had provided more glimpses that an entire nation isn't filled with mustache twirlers by showing that history has painted Tevinter with as mistaken a light as the Dalish have with their forebears. No, Tevinter doesn't have to be emo and misunderstood, but it's unrealistic to have its entire history and current population limited to blood mages and corrupt citizens. Just like how the little we actually saw of Orlais as a nation in DAI kept the caricature of poncy French fussy nobles, which hurt the world building.

[Medhia_Nox]

@vbibbi:  I personally wouldn't care. 

 

Murderers, rapists, genocidal maniacs... ancient wizards whos hubris may or may not have unleashed living corruption onto the world... there's no amount of "sorry, my bad" that can make me say:  "Oh, I connect with this mentality."

 

Maybe... if Corypheus or one of his ilk worked tirelessly and upstandingly to correct his failures... while accepting that there is no salvation for himself, I would have a modicum of respect for the character. 

 

Solas is the worst though... he doesn't want to correct his mistakes out of any real empathy or realization that what he did was bad.  He wants to correct his mistakes because what he did had unintended results.

 

For me... Corypheus isn't even nearly as bad a mustache twirling villain as Solas.  I actually would have preferred if he abandoned Tevinter and the Old Gods for the Blight.  Creating him into an elemental force would have done - for me - wonders. 

[TEWR]

Uh, what?

 

Characters in a political position of authority whose goals and personality I agree with on at least a partial level and would follow with undying loyalty (for example Loghain Mac Tir, my DN Warden, Tywin Lannister, Stannis the Mannis Baratheon, etc.)

 

But like I said, it's because of how I headcanon the man (his goals, his past, his actions, his regrets, his interactions with other people, etc), not due to the canon's drivel.

[Aulis Vaara]

They could have done something very interesting with Corypheus if instead of having him be a static character, they had made him dynamic based on the Inquisitor's convictions. For instance, if your Inquisitor was a religious "I'm the Herald of Andraste" type, Corypheus too would play up his status as the high priest of Dumat. He could challenge your faith by bringing up that though his god is dead, at least it used to be real and it used to answer his prayers, unlike the Maker or Andraste. His goal would be to ascend to become the new Dumat.

On the other hand, if you are more of the type who believes there is a mundane explanation for everything, Corypheus too would be more interested in getting answered for what happened to his god and his companions. He would try to tempt you to join his side by promising answers if you help him achieve his goals.

Or, if you're more of the "maintaining peace and order" kind, he would play up his Tevinter heritage, making you out to be rebels and pirates who upset the righteous order. He would point out the mage-templar war to point out that your way does not work, and that you only sow chaos and destruction.

A variable antagonist that changes to be a true counterpart to the Inquisitor would have been interesting indeed.

[Qun00]

Cory was an obvious attempt to recreate Irenicus, but a very poor one. Lacked the charm, the cold impersonal evil, or most importantly, the success of Irenicus.

Cory did well at Haven, then spent the rest of the game getting his ass kicked. The black-and-white villain and the invincible hero both seemed to be reactions to DA2 IMO.

He is even mocked by other characters.

Flemeth: "The magister grasping beyond his reach? Yes, I know."

Solas: " Like a child, he will toss the chess board rather than admitting defeat."

I never understood the love for Loghain. He was just cartoonishly paranoid about what he feared of the Orlesians and it made him incredibly stupid and blind to the Blight. When he wasn't acting out of paranoia, he was just an a**hole. He never had a compelling motive, and his reasons for his actions only barely lined up with what he did. He wasn't very good at all for me. Corypheus may have been a silly Saturday-morning cartoon villain, but I'll take a silly Saturday-morning cartoon villain over one that I just don't give even half a s*** about because he's so uninteresting.

At least Loghain makes you feel something, whether it is positive or negative. That's how you know a character is successful.

[Ashagar]

Loghain made me feel annoyance if nothing else I suppose... Now Howe on the other hand he invoked emotion, he manged invoke emotion to be satisfying to defeat even if you don't play a human noble or city elf.

[GoldenGail3]

Loghain made me feel annoyance if nothing else I suppose... Now Howe on the other hand he invoked emotion, he manged invoke emotion to be satisfying to defeat even if you don't play a human noble or city elf.

I need to find that post where I called Howe a power hungry pig...

[NKnight7]

Ugh, I hated Howe. I was all to happy to finally kill him, even more so since my Warden was a human noble.

[AedanStarfang]

I don't think it's 100% necessary to form an emotional bond or mental connection to a villain in order to hate them, disavow their actions, or even understand them. We didn't need to understand Ultimecia to know that the Time Compression was seriously going to screw with the world, or that Lucien Fairfax's idea of an "orderly world" meant the deaths of thousands at the cost of reactivating an old kingdom weapon, or even Bowser who continues to kidnap the princess for the lulz. Some villains are just a-holes and no amount of depth will make them redeemable or lovable. 

[o Ventus]

At least Loghain makes you feel something, whether it is positive or negative. That's how you know a character is successful.

 

Not if it's the opposite of the intended emotion. No good villain is written with the intent of making you hate them. At least, hating them not because they are evil or lack good traits, but because they are uninteresting and boring and you just want them to leave the screen so you can continue playing. Jar Jar Binks also instills emotions in people, but nobody is going to defend him as a good character.

[Gothfather]

The biggest problem with Cory is Bioware writing. The power fantasy doesn't work with a narrative where you are fighting an all powerful enemy where the protagonist questions their ability to defeat said enemy. You need to make the player feel unempowered against such an enemy. No one plays ME3 and starts priority: earth thinking "i don't know if I can win." You land thinking "Reapers Smeapers I got this." Yet every fraking conversation is telling you this is a hail mary and long shot we probably wont survive or win. So MAYBE just MAYBE the mechanics of your fraking game should match the feelings you are trying to convey?

 

Horror or survival genre games don't work as power fantasies. It requires that you unempowered to generate horror, if you feel kick ass you don't feel it will be a struggle to survive in a survival genre games.

 

Cory was presented as the one of the great evils out of the past who RUINED the world and caused the blights the single worse thing to ever happen. One who seems immune to death. yet you never once feel out of your depth even though Bioware tried to convey that. Why? because the story and mechanics and plot tell you he is a punching bag. Your overwhelming enemy shouldn't be defeated EVERY FRAKING time you encounter his forces. Seriously the writting in Bioware is shite for plot.

[Ashagar]

Baldur's Gate I & II, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights and Jade Empire to name some titles runs counter to the idea Bioware is incapable of writing good narrative and plot. Wonder if any of it is interference from above like what made KOTR II such a troubled release for Obsidian.

[Helmetto]

Agree with what others have said; Cory was a huge fountain of disappointment. A lot of the time, his plans came off as particularly foolish or short-sighted.

 

But it's not Cory being a stupid idiot that really bugs me. I'm fine with it. It's the fact that when I was done with him, I didn't feel the sweeping relief of accomplishment afterwards. Like "Look how far I've come." Sort of feeling. 

 

Which is a shame, considering that there was an afterparty meant to establish that it was how the Inquisitor was feeling.