153 réponses à ce sujet

[animedreamer]

I just thought about something... in Dragon Age Origins, the final battle with the archdemon, well really the night or day or however long since the Landsmeet, Why didn't Riordan suggest more people take the Joining? He offers it to Loghain as a form of recompense, all the while knowing that potentially 3 to 4 Wardens still might not be enough given that they were incredibly outnumbered and the chance that all potentially 4 of them could be killed by the Archdemon during the fight. He could have conscripted at least 10 other guys from the entire army of people who are already treaty bound to aid the Wardens during the time of a Blight. (Remember no one is immune to the Warden's right to Conscript.) Yes I know plot being what it is, but if you really think about it, the Warden shouldn't even have to do the Dark Ritual, or the Ultimate Sacrifice, of the 2 times we see the joining done, only 2 people ever died because of the actual taint.

Going by Awakening, the survival rate of the Joining is actually really high, I mean 5/6 ain't bad. Riordan could have grabbed just about anyone then and had a what? 83% of success? thats damn good odds. lol

 

 

I rewatched the video of you rescuing Riordan from Howe's dungeon, he mentions that the Archdemon blood from the Vault was either stolen / confiscated (likely by Loghain and Howe), or destroyed. However if you make Loghain a Warden the Archdemon blood they use most come from somewhere and the current one hadn't shown itself yet.

[ArcadiaGrey]

You're right, it doesn't make sense.  They could've easily got Oghren, Sten, or any able soldier to become a warden.  There should be enough blood for a good few tries.  

 

Also why would Alistair stomp off in a huff if you recruit Loghain?  Ferelden needs all the wardens it can get and he was fine with saving Sten, who don't forget had just murdered children, but not Loghain?  You'd think he'd put his personal feelings aside, even to throw Loghain headlong at the arch demon as bait.

 

Why would Riordan make that stupid jump on to the dragon when he could have waited and not died such a stupid death.  Why wait so long to tell you that someone has to die to stop the blight?

 

The Landsmeet is needlessly convoluted and they could have simplified the whole ending.  I guess the answer to all these issues is 'because reasons' but it's annoying and a bit silly.  I end up shrugging and going with it, what else can you do?

[Ryzaki]

Cause the devs were insistent on the DR being a tempting decision for almost everyone no matter how little sense it made.

[Mike3207]

Riordan mentions there's only enough Archdemon blood for one joining, but doesn't mention where it comes from.

 

It's also not explained why someone else couldn't have been chosen to be that Warden, other than it was a plot device.

[ArcadiaGrey]

Cause the devs were insistent on the DR being a tempting decision for almost everyone no matter how little sense it made.

That sounds about right...which makes me sad.

[ArcadiaGrey]

Riordan mentions there's only enough Archdemon blood for one joining, but doesn't mention where it comes from.
 
It's also not explained why someone else couldn't have been chosen to be that Warden, other than it was a plot device.

So if Loghain dies there'd still be enough for someone else (step forward Oghren). What a waste.

[Illegitimus]

The reason why Riordan was prepared to bring Loghain over was because Loghain is one of the best fighters in Ferelden, he'd be going to waste, and he'd be willing, even eager to go kamikaze on the archdemon.  For all he knows, other potential recruits like Oghren might actually have something to live for.  

[Ryzaki]

Riordan mentions there's only enough Archdemon blood for one joining, but doesn't mention where it comes from.

 

It's also not explained why someone else couldn't have been chosen to be that Warden, other than it was a plot device.

 

Can I get a video link? I need to see some proof of this because this is certainly something I would've remembered. He didn't even know where the blood was let alone how much of it was left. 

[Tidus]

After Tidus or Camine kills Loghain the AD blood remains ready for use-not a peep from Riordan. Wonder why? Was he under a blood magic mind controlling spell or in cahoots with Loghain and lied about being tortured? 

 

Where did Riorden actually go after being released from his cell? He seemed to be in a big rush to leave the area and there's that ambush after you release the queen. All prime and waiting for you to wade right on in.

 

Even though everybody in the group was in on the killing of Howe and his men Loghain was only interested in locking up the warden.

 

How did Guards know Howe was dead? Why didn't they rush to save Howe before he was killed?

 

Seems like that asp of a man Loghain was double dealing in treachery and betrayal. 

[animedreamer]

Riordan mentions there's only enough Archdemon blood for one joining, but doesn't mention where it comes from.

 

It's also not explained why someone else couldn't have been chosen to be that Warden, other than it was a plot device.

But you only need one drop of Archdemon blood to do the joining, plus fresh darkspawn blood plus what ever other magic is used to prepare the Taint Cocktail, you telling me Loghain held on to ONE DROP of Archdemon blood? How does that even work without syringes? Also we've seen 3 potential wardens all drink from the same cup, there were no refills, they didn't have a pitcher of the stuff sitting around. So if they had enough for one person ie Loghain then two more people could have stepped up and taken a swig.

[Qis]

All recruits only need to take one sip....there should be enough to recruit two or three in Loghain's Joining...

 

Afterall, it is announced publicly, everyone in the Landsmeet know the secret now

[animedreamer]

The reason why Riordan was prepared to bring Loghain over was because Loghain is one of the best fighters in Ferelden, he'd be going to waste, and he'd be willing, even eager to go kamikaze on the archdemon.  For all he knows, other potential recruits like Oghren might actually have something to live for.  

 

But this isn't some, "Oh we only want lonely, end of their rope kamikaze pilots" they were talking about the fate of an entire nation, possibly even more, the fact that Loghain is a good fighter isn't enough to wage his skills vs the fact that we could have several other candidates also join with him, we know in Awakening after Oghren drank it, and complained to the Warden about his new rash, that he drank the whole thing and no one told him to do that, so again the amount you intake need not be an entire goblet, Loghain took a swig, passes to Sten, Sten takes a swig, (depending on how you did his personal quest, he might not have anything to live for anyway, might as well make him a Warden and have him fight to the Death redeeming himself somewhat by kill the Archdemon, or Oghren, who again lost his entire family, and if you didn't bother with Falsi also doesn't have much to live for, so he takes a swig.)

[animedreamer]

After Tidus or Camine kills Loghain the AD blood remains ready for use-not a peep from Riordan. Wonder why? Was he under a blood magic mind controlling spell or in cahoots with Loghain and lied about being tortured? 

 

Where did Riorden actually go after being released from his cell? He seemed to be in a big rush to leave the area and there's that ambush after you release the queen. All prime and waiting for you to wade right on in.

 

Even though everybody in the group was in on the killing of Howe and his men Loghain was only interested in locking up the warden.

 

How did Guards know Howe was dead? Why didn't they rush to save Howe before he was killed?

 

Seems like that asp of a man Loghain was double dealing in treachery and betrayal. 

 

Good stuff. lol

[Illegitimus]

After Tidus or Camine kills Loghain the AD blood remains ready for use-not a peep from Riordan. Wonder why? 

 

Because he didn't have another candidate he considered promising and yet expendable.  Or if he did, it didn't come up with the player character because the player character plays no role in that.  I mean Riordan could have picked some other guy off stage and had that candidate not make it.  

[Mike3207]

Can I get a video link? I need to see some proof of this because this is certainly something I would've remembered. He didn't even know where the blood was let alone how much of it was left. 

It'd either be during the interview before the Landsmeet when you talk to Riordan after you rescue Anora or during the conversation when Riordan wants to recruit Loghain. Offhand, I don't remember which it was and you'd need to do that section of the Landsmeet to know which it is-no video.

[Ryzaki]

It'd either be during the interview before the Landsmeet when you talk to Riordan after you rescue Anora or during the conversation when Riordan wants to recruit Loghain. Offhand, I don't remember which it was and you'd need to do that section of the Landsmeet to know which it is-no video.

 

I deleted all my saves I can't check. Can someone else check for me? Because I've gone over that conversation quite a few times and I do not recall that at all.

[animedreamer]

I deleted all my saves I can't check. Can someone else check for me? Because I've gone over that conversation quite a few times and I do not recall that at all.

Same, all deleted.. probably because of the Keep being up I decided to delete them.

[Illegitimus]

All recruits only need to take one sip....there should be enough to recruit two or three in Loghain's Joining...

 

Afterall, it is announced publicly, everyone in the Landsmeet know the secret now

 

No it isn't.  

 

 

But this isn't some, "Oh we only want lonely, end of their rope kamikaze pilots" they were talking about the fate of an entire nation, possibly even more, the fact that Loghain is a good fighter isn't enough to wage his skills vs the fact that we could have several other candidates also join with him, we know in Awakening after Oghren drank it, and complained to the Warden about his new rash, that he drank the whole thing and no one told him to do that, so again the amount you intake need not be an entire goblet, Loghain took a swig, passes to Sten, Sten takes a swig, (depending on how you did his personal quest, he might not have anything to live for anyway, might as well make him a Warden and have him fight to the Death redeeming himself somewhat by kill the Archdemon, or Oghren, who again lost his entire family, and if you didn't bother with Falsi also doesn't have much to live for, so he takes a swig.)

 

 

Riordan knows nothing about Sten or Oghren.  Better to ask why your character doesn't add them to the list.  Where does their loyalty really lie?

[Dai Grepher]

The success rate is based on how well the recruiter picks. There has never been an official test to see the average success rate among all available people. As in, a test conducted on say, 10,000 people.

 

Anyway, I think the reason is because making new Wardens on such short notice would have been ineffective. You would have to get strong troops, many of which would die and thus take away from the war effort. Then any who survived would then need to be conditioned to accept their possible fate of having their soul obliterated against the archdemon's.

 

I think they just needed the right caliber of soldier, and the time they had was too short to find such people. They had to mobilize the army immediately.

 

Besides, Riordan probably figured that the battle would go as it usually should, with regular soldiers dying against the archdemon to weaken it and the hoard, then when the dragon is injured enough the Wardens rush in and finish the job.

[Dai Grepher]

As for the archdemon blood, it was explained right after helping Riordan escape his cell and asking him if he can make the Joining juice that the blood was in the vault, but Loghain confiscated it. We never find out what Loghain did with it, but he probably saved it just in case. That was then used to make Loghain a Grey Warden.

 

But it only takes a drop. So even if Loghain dumped it out, if only one drop was left inside, it would have been enough for one Joining ritual.

[animedreamer]

No it isn't.  

 

 

 

 

Riordan knows nothing about Sten or Oghren.  Better to ask why your character doesn't add them to the list.  Where does their loyalty really lie?

Riordan knowing about Loghain's history doesn't make him a stronger choice or that he'll survive until the end, for that matter, He like anyone else but especially wardens, know that the Dwarves of Orzammar are especially astute at fighting Darkspawn, hell its all they've been doing since the Darkspawn appeared, I'd bet a Dwarf Warrior from Orzammar has more skill and kills when it comes to fighting Darkspawn than any non Orzammar Dwarf Warrior turned Warden. Seeing Oghren there Riordan could have easily realized that this Dwarf is probably a Battle-hardened Dwarven Death Dealing Machine... and asked, "Hey you ever kill Darkspawn?" and had his ear chewed off on how Oghren is the best Warrior of his generation, and Deep Roads vet. Then you have Sten, 7ft tall Qunari with a sword equally as big, nuff said. As far as why the Warden didn't add them to the list, remember neither the Warden or Alistair know anything about the ultimate sacrifice during the time of the Landsmeet, something Riordan neglected to bring up as a crucial argument as to why to spare Loghain's life and try to make him a Warden, Alistair was still under the impression that being a Warden was this noble glamorous thing, and that you die in the Deep Roads after a few decades or so, not immediately upon killing a Archdemon.

[animedreamer]

The success rate is based on how well the recruiter picks. There has never been an official test to see the average success rate among all available people. As in, a test conducted on say, 10,000 people.

 

Anyway, I think the reason is because making new Wardens on such short notice would have been ineffective. You would have to get strong troops, many of which would die and thus take away from the war effort. Then any who survived would then need to be conditioned to accept their possible fate of having their soul obliterated against the archdemon's.

 

I think they just needed the right caliber of soldier, and the time they had was too short to find such people. They had to mobilize the army immediately.

 

Besides, Riordan probably figured that the battle would go as it usually should, with regular soldiers dying against the archdemon to weaken it and the hoard, then when the dragon is injured enough the Wardens rush in and finish the job.

 

The recruiter doesn't have any special ability when it comes to picking, As I will remind you, not everyone is recruited, some people came willingly. (Oghren, Sigrun, Arl Howe's father, ect ect), Also that kind of test your talking about doesn't even apply here. You know having your heart ripped out, or your head removed from your neck will kill you, you don't need to repeat it on 10,000 people to come to that conclusion. If your view of the joining was accurate there wouldn't be Wardens that number in the hundreds in Orlai. 

 

No many of the troops would not have died, again you wouldn't have as many Wardens as you have throughout Thedas if death from the joining was so numerous, Heck just recall Alistair talking about his joining, Only 1 Person died at his joining 1! Technically only one person died as the Wardens joining as well, at least from the taint, and during awakening only 1 person dies from the joining.. Again all the statistical evidence you need is right there.

 

As far as Caliber of Soldier, I prefer not to get into that again, safe to say hundreds if not thousands of soldiers outside, all you needed is for 20 of them to try it, if only half survived it then bam the Warden's chances of survival without doing the DR goes up by that much. Hell going by the ending, if 2 Wardens are at the fight you can decide which one does the Ultimate Sacrifice, this is where one of those new recruits could have stepped out of the shadows and claimed some glory. So it's not even a matter of skill, but rather having someone waiting in the wing for the coup de grace. 

[Tidus]

Here's the ticket.. Our Army is ill trained and ill equipped and more of a rag tag militia then a army . Riorden and even Sten says the army wouldn't last long against the horde.Orghen (a Dwarven warrior class) says its 3 to 1..

 

Not good odds when the friendly casualties start climbing against the enemy loses and there is no reserve units to fill the gaps. In short the enemy gains strength  while your forces is being thinned by the high amount of casualties battling those 3 to 1 odds..

[Aren]

Plot hole, is called plot hole.
In order to limit the numbers of potential daddy of Kieran, and also in order to make the DR a conflictual choice they decided to not allow to Riordan to create more GW.
That is why i often said that the whole Morrigan subplot often created plot holes, both in DAO and DAI and even if Gaider is good when it come to create characters, he is just not as good when it come to develop the main plots of the games.

[Aren]

Cause the devs were insistent on the DR being a tempting decision for almost everyone no matter how little sense it made.

See...
And this is way i also dislike the way in which Morrigan subplot often undermined the coherence of the Main plot both in DAO and in DAI.
This is the main reason as for why i wish that Bioware will stop with her character.
Also Duncan not telling to Alistair the US secret for 6th months just show on how much Gaider ruined the main plot with colossal plot holes for the little Morrigan subplot.
As a writer in DA he was never capable to give priority on the logic of the main plot rather than the one of certain Npc, same thing happen in DAI when the Corypheus mistery was resolved with a top secret method involved in the Morrigan subplot.