153 réponses à ce sujet

[Tidus]

Riordan seems to be caught in the middle of two power hungry people and may not be aware of the treachery that is being dealt by both parties. Of course he could be under a blood magic spell as well. Think of it.. Would you want to save a man that had you tortured and imprisoned? 

 

As I said before my Warden kills Loghain for his crimes and above all allowing Howe to purge the Alienage and the selling of his family and friends into slavery. I'm sure Loghain looked those fiery hate filled greens eyes and realized what his biggest mistake was. 

 

There's no way Loghain wasn't aware what Howe was doing. He probably gave the order or at least agreed to it..

 

As far as Loghain trying to talk Cailan out of fighting on the front line was a for the people that was gathered-a alibi at best. Then Loghain says" Yes,a great day for us all" and that look on his face tells the story. He plan to withdrawal.

[Illegitimus]

Riordan seems to be caught in the middle of two power hungry people and may not be aware of the treachery that is being dealt by both parties. Of course he could be under a blood magic spell as well. Think of it.. Would you want to save a man that had you tortured and imprisoned?

 

 

Recruiting someone to become a Warden and go up against an archdemon is not saving them.  Particularly not for Riordan who believes that killing the archdemon comes not just at the expense of your life, but also your afterlife.  If Loghain does in fact end up striking that final blow, then Riordan has condemned him to not just death, but total obliteration.  

[Tidus]

Rather then risk the chance Loghain may not make the final blow I will execute him for treason and crimes against humanity.

 

Riordan mentions making  Loghain a warden second by  Anora.. Nobody stops the execution and after the execution one soldier lifts his crossbow to ready arms  when you start talking about whose fanny will sit on the throne..So,there was options to put a bolt or arrow through the warden before he/she kills Loghain. All Queen Anora would need to do was shout "Kill the warden!" and the warden would have been full of arrows and bolts. What was that sound just before the execution? Crickets? 

[Illegitimus]

Rather then risk the chance Loghain may not make the final blow I will execute him for treason and crimes against humanity.

 

 

Yeah, yeah you will.  But this isn't about you and your grudge.  This is about Riordan and why he made the proposal.  

[Tidus]

No grudge.. Justice.. You may think its ok to commit treason, kill and torture people, poison a Arl, purge the Alienage and sell Elves into slavery and then there's the bounty on your head,he tried to have you killed not once but twice by the Crows and if you lose the landsmeet he immediately  orders your execution. Allowing him to live goes against the wardens oath and in part-Grey Wardens are ruthless to their enemies-a small thing bootlick Riordan forgets. Riordan even lies to the warden as well about the AD knowing where they are if they stay in a group.. Wardens in the past blights attacked in large numbers on foot and from above on griffons.

 

To my mind Loghain is just as killable as any Drakspawn.

[Illegitimus]

No grudge.. Justice.. You may think its ok to commit treason, kill and torture people, poison a Arl, purge the Alienage and sell Elves into slavery and then there's the bounty on your head,he tried to have you killed not once but twice by the Crows and if you lose the landsmeet he immediately  orders your execution. Allowing him to live goes against the wardens oath 

 

No.  It doesn't.  Warden's aren't in the justice business. 

[Tidus]

Wardens is well known to do what ever it takes to stop a blight.. Loghain would have been killed not pardon. He is a enemy that caused the death of wardens needlessly while the Darkspawn  was on a rampage-you do recall the warden's oath as stated by Duncan on the trip to Ostagar?

 

Get into my city Elf  warden's character. Do you think they would let Howe or Loghain live for want they done? Tidus killed a Arl's son for raping Shianni  and kidnapping his betrothed  and the wedding party. Camine killed Vaughan for rapping Shianni and causing the death of her friend Nola and the death of her betrothed.

 

What's killing one more human cesspool scum?  The last thing Loghain saw was the same fiery hate filled green eyes that Vaughan and Howe looked into before their death..

[Illegitimus]

Wardens is well known to do what ever it takes to stop a blight.. Loghain would have been killed not pardon. He is a enemy that caused the death of wardens needlessly while the Darkspawn  was on a rampage-you do recall the warden's oath as stated by Duncan on the trip to Ostagar?

 

Get into my city Elf  warden's character. 

 

No.  Because your (or mine) City Elf's substantial reasons for holding a grudge against Loghain are irrelevant to Riordan.  Yes.  Loghain caused the death of wardens needlessly.  Duncan caused the death of a warden needlessly.  But the Wardens are not about justice and they are not about taking revenge.  You may choose to take revenge, but when you do so, you are not doing it because the Wardens Oath says "You must not let these things go unavenged".  The Warden's Oath says no such thing.  Killing Loghain is only "doing whatever it takes to stop a blight" if Loghain is still an obstacle to stopping the blight and at that point he no longer is.  Otherwise it is at best irrelevant as are your personal grudges and talking about justice, neither of which matter to the mission.  Yes, my City Elf will kill Loghain.  She'll do it for personal revenge and because she loves Alistair.  And she'll die because she loves Alistair and so will not sacrifice him either to the Archdemon or Morrigan.  But she won't kill Loghain because the Warden's Oath demands it.  It doesn't.  

[Tidus]

Grey Wardens are ruthless to  their enemy and in this case it was Loghain.--the best ally the Darkspawn has since he was more then willing to kill all the wardens and was far more worried about Orlais then protecting the land he supposedly loves.. He went crazy and like I said before killing him is a act of mercy.Even his daughter says he mad.

[Illegitimus]

Grey Wardens are ruthless to their friends.  The "perfect" Grey Warden will recruit Joseph Stalin or Doctor Mengele if he decides that this will somehow give the Wardens some infinitesimal advantage versus the blight and then he'll cut the throats of his closest comrades for a blood ritual he thinks will destroy the darkspawn.  No Warden is actually perfect of course but the fact is Loghain is nowhere near crazy enough to be useless and recruiting him is solidly in synch with the utilitarian ethics of the Warden ideology.   

[Tidus]

I think we can agree to disagree..  Loghain is like Hitler a mad man that flies into a rage-look at the Hitler like tantrum at the Landsmeet .It reminded me  of the bunker scene in "Downfall".

 

No,there will be no uniting of the  bleeding hearts of Ferelden to save him..His doom was sealed by his own twisted mind.

[caradoc2000]

Riordan could have conscripted everyone. Then the darkspawn wouldn't have had any reason to fight anymore, since everyone would have been blighted.

 

Behold, the Synthesis ending for the DA franchise

[animedreamer]

Riordan could have conscripted everyone. Then the darkspawn wouldn't have had any reason to fight anymore, since everyone would have been blighted.

 

Behold, the Synthesis ending for the DA franchise

I would have liked to see him conscript Anora, just to see her reaction, not even Kings and Queens are above the Authority to Conscript.

[kimgoold]

I would have liked to see him conscript Anora, just to see her reaction, not even Kings and Queens are above the Authority to Conscript.

Yes, I can just see her going into battle spouting how she's the daughter of a great general and batting her eyes like she's having a stroke, hey it works for everything else.

[Tidus]

I can see it now.

 

Riorden: I'm going to conscript Anora.

 

Tidus is to dumbstruck to reply or if Camine is used she will just look at him like he just went mad.

 

Leliana: Maker's breath!

 

Morrigan: You can't be serious! We don't need that bimbo.

 

Alistair shouts: WHAT?!!!

 

Eamon: we hear a "thump!" as he hits the floor from passing out.

[GoldenGail3]

I can see it now.
 
Riorden: I'm going to conscript Anora.
 
Tidus is to dumbstruck to reply or if Camine is used she will just look at him like he just went mad.
 
Leliana: Maker's breath!
 
Morrigan: You can't be serious! We don't need that bimbo.
 
Alistair shouts: WHAT?!!!
 
Eamon: we hear a "thump!" as he hits the floor from passing out.

"No!" Cousland shouts, clearly angered by such a foul thing.

[Illegitimus]

"No!" Cousland shouts, clearly angered by such a foul thing.

 

A more likely response would be "why"?  Anora is virtually the only ruler in Thedas who isn't a good fighter.  

[animedreamer]

A more likely response would be "why"?  Anora is virtually the only ruler in Thedas who isn't a good fighter.  

Not that we know, she is the daughter of Loghain, and while he preached "daughters never grow up Anora, they remain 6 years old with pigtails and skinned knees." he never said how she got those skinned knees? could have been during unarmed combat training for all we know. lol. She is wear full plate armor at the battle of denerim after all, might be she knew which end of the sword to stab people with.

[MisterJB]

I think we can agree to disagree..

"Agree to disagree" only applies to a subjective argument. However, you are objectively wrong and Illegitimus is right.

 

The Wardens are not about gaining revenge or justice. They are about stopping Darkspawn by whatever means necessary.

Killing Loghain does not contribute to that goal. Therefore, there is no reason for a Grey Warden to do it.

Your Tabris, as an individual, may have reasons to do it. But not the Grey Wardens.

 

[kimgoold]

I believe killing Loghain is tactically sound, he's already proven he's ruthless and untrustworthy; you don't need to keep someone at your back who's far more  likely to stab you in it.

[kimgoold]

I believe killing Loghain is tactically sound, he's already proven he's ruthless and untrustworthy; you don't need to keep someone at your back who's far more  likely to stab you in it.

And that goes for all origins not just the CE.

[Tidus]

Kimgoold,I fully agree.. One can't trust a man that wants you dead and with his twisted mind he's not trust worthy.

 

Again that Hitler like rant after the Landsmeet  sides with the wardens proves he crazy.

 

Besides.. For the joining to work where is the AD blood? Riordan says he couldn't find it in the Warden's safe  and believes Loghain has destroyed it and all of a sudden he wants to make Loghain a warden.. I just don't think Loghain will give him the AD blood before the Landsmeet if he (Loghain) even had it..

 

No.. Loghain will die in my games.

[Artona]

 

No grudge.. Justice.. You may think its ok to commit treason, kill and torture people, (...)

 

To my mind Loghain is just as killable as any Drakspawn.

 Sure, but what about some elven murderer and assassin? Or a murderous Qunari, who slaughtered innocent family? Or a witch, who used to lure templars to their doom? Shouldn't they face the cold justice as well?
Ad rem - I always imagined that resources that Riordan's disposal are limited to one Joining and Loghain seems to make sense as recruit - famed warrior and general, tough guy (so likely to survive ritual) and besides that - sparing him seems like for me like an actually subtle way to resolve conflict: traitor gest punished, yet isn't killed, so Anora can be convinced to cooperate, we get additional Grey Warden... many positives. If only Alistair was more mature. 

BTW My first post here. Hi

[Illegitimus]

I believe killing Loghain is tactically sound, he's already proven he's ruthless and untrustworthy; you don't need to keep someone at your back who's far more  likely to stab you in it.

 

"Ruthless" is, to put it mildly, fine with the wardens.  So yes, the real issue is one of trust, not irrelevancies like justice or revenge.  When weighing the decision of whether or not to offer Loghain the cup the questions you have to ask yourself are:

 

1.  How likely is he to turn on you?

2.  How much damage could he do if he does?  

3.  Can he be useful if he doesn't?  

 

Loghain was led into his treason by an idée fixe, his obsession with the threat posed by Orlais.  But he was and is a fanatical patriot and the arch-demon is a threat to Ferelden and he has reached the point where he finally accepts he was wrong and the blight is real.  So while it's quite likely that he'd try to take revenge on the Warden he'd probably wouldn't do it until after the arch-demon was dead and the odds were much better than even that one or both of them would not survive the slaying of the archdemon.  Assuming he lost the Landsmeet, then he poses no significant threat as a politician and noble.  He has lost his position and his following.  So he can either try for a rematch with with the Warden, that he'd probably lose, or he can hope to be remembered as a man who in the end gave his life for his country.    

 

Still his value as another potential slayer is balanced by the chance that he could yet prove crazy enough to be a distraction rather than an asset in the battle.  My Cousland actually chose to induct Loghain in the hope that an Anora who had not had her father killed before her eyes would be less of a miserable marriage partner to Alistair and would be less likely to murder him down the road.  Raised as a noble and a politician, he does what politicians do, he compromises.  This is not a concern for Riordan.  So what is?  What's the reason why in the toss-up between killing and inducting Loghain, Riordan picks "heads"?

 

Well there is one other consideration beside Loghain's own potential value if he can get his head out of his ass.  Loghain's the only living person who know what happened to the last of the arch-demon's blood.  If he's executed they might never find it.  So inducting anyone else if they don't induct Loghain, isn't even an option.  

[Tidus]

lllgitimus,Interesting thought.. I to wondered if Anora would kill Alistair but,the couple shows up in DA:I 10 years after the AD is killed.

 

I could never trust a man that wants  Tidus dead so,  Tidus kills him before he kills Tidus.--the same principle that the Army taught me and I applied that principle for 13 long months and that's how I survived.

 

Loghain's warp mind is the reason he dies in my games plus, Tidus and Camine are CEs and they will not overlook he allowed Howe to purge the Alienage and Loghain selling the Elves into slavery. Nor will either overlook Loghain placing a bounty on their heads and sending Crow assassins to kill them. 

 

BTW. The Tevinter  slavers are killed to the last.

 

I still get a chuckle out of his Hitler like rant after the Landsmeet since it reminds me of Hitler's rant in the bunker scene in Downfall..