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MEA:MP Melee


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#1
Dalakaar

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Soes, in the ME:A forum there have been a few iterations of melee threads...

 

I'm a big proponent for expanding on melee in ME:A. (particularly MP) Balancing it, adding more options, (including primary weapons) and just in general expanding on the melee abilities that are already in place.

 

Interestingly, there's a bit of resistance to this.

 

So I'm curious what the MPers view is.

 

Would you want more melee options? Fitness divided so you can have health/shields and +melee dmg? More weapons like the Krolord's Hammer? Having a Paladin that can actually move with his shield, etc.

 

And if not, why? The detractors there seem to regurgitate the same issues over and over in an attempt to indoctrinate everyone out of it. I'm hoping for a least more sense in a counter-argument here.


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#2
PresidentVorchaMasterBaits

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 Fitness divided so you can have health/shields and +melee dmg? 

DEFINITELY THIS!! WE WANT TANKY CHARACTER LIKE KROGAN THAT CAN SMACK ENEMIES AROUND AND SURVIVE LONGER!!! ALWAYS THOUGHT IT WAS LAME TO SACRIFICE HEALTH FOR MELEE AND VICE VERSA!

 

SAW SOME OF THOSE POSTS IN ANDRAMADIX TOO AND WE'RE JUST SCRATCHING OUR HEADS! VORCHA THINKS THAT SP CRYBABIES PROBABLY JUST MISS BEING RIPPED APART BY SUIT RAT MASTER RACE!!!


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#3
FuriousFelicia

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Fitness should never have been a choice between shields and melee.
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#4
The Real Pearl #2

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N7 shadow is probably the most dynamic melee character in my experience and opinion. I would love for them to expand upon the melee mechanics like they did with the N7 shadow. I think most Mper's can agree that melee kits were a fun and unique addition to the game. But some of these kits are a bit buggy. Notable example's are the cabal, warlord, shadow, and slayer. These kits have flaws that are a huge inconvenience to the player and the flow of the game:

like being able to be sync killed but unable to take cover and being a huge clunky model with a severe case of blindness, you are basically a berserker from gears of war but far more squishy and vulnerable (warlord)

 

Only being able to use your power effectively on 70% of the enemies in the game and banshees sometimes glitching and taking no damage from the attack, Brutes also take down your shields for simply rubbing their arse on you. (shadow strike) 

 

The melee is stiff and clunky, their is a huge delay between attacks, the dodges can varie from teleporting you 10 meters across the map or glitching and teleporting you to a banshees claws.(cabal and slayer)


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#5
Abramsrunner

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I liked some of the melee in the first Mass Effect, being able to knock down small/light enemies to the ground like husks with a simple rifle butt to the face is really nice.

 

I think Bioware might just do a customisable Omni-tool melee in ME:A, the Paladin's Shield is one my favorite melees in ME3MP. If I remember right the heavy melee on the cyro shield can freeze Phantoms, plus the fire shield is great for FEs up close. And the base shield with no points into it is really useful for knock downs on unproctected enemies.


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#6
Urizen

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Melee has always felt a little tacked on for me, even with kits that are designed around melee. It´s one of the reasons I rarely play KroLord and Shadow. So yes, expanding upon that would be very much appreciated. And yes, melee should have been it´s very own tree. After all for melee you need health to get close to melee in the first place.


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#7
SethGecko

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Moaaar melee please.

I want wider range of melee weapons which have their own unique balanced attributes.

I can't tell you enough how disappointed I was with the Talon Merc 'omni-bow' (well everything about his little ass was disappointing) but I was expecting something similar to the gears of war torque bow.

That would have been awesome.

And we definitely need some sort of ninja with nunchucks! Or Omni-Chucks.
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#8
Ghost Of N7_SP3CTR3

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I try not to venture into the ME:A thread,just so I can keep my last bit of sanity.

I don't really have a problem with how melee options are set up now,because there needs to be a balanced trade off between melee and fitness,or you might as well just 66666 glitch.The bigger concern for me is that I hope they keep the over cover grab mechanics,and maybe some better melee gear.

#9
7twozero

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Health and melee vs shields and speed, with more gear and weapons that give specialized melee, also sync dynamics bed changing somehow.

#10
capn233

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If you are going to choose between anything, seems like the choice should possibly be between melee and accuracy.

 

Expanding melee can mean almost anything though, so who knows.  Not particularly in favor of primarily melee focused character with the possible exceptions of a few in MP.  Nor am I in favor of the expansion of melee weapons as equipable unless they are powered correctly.  Like the relative power of a saber vs an AK-47 for instance.


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#11
The Real Pearl #2

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Moaaar melee please.

I want wider range of melee weapons which have their own unique balanced attributes.

I can't tell you enough how disappointed I was with the Talon Merc 'omni-bow' (well everything about his little ass was disappointing) but I was expecting something similar to the gears of war torque bow.

That would have been awesome.

And we definitely need some sort of ninja with nunchucks! Or Omni-Chucks.

Hell yeah!!, i love that weapon!


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#12
Abramsrunner

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If you are going to choose between anything, seems like the choice should possibly be between melee and accuracy.

 

The choice between melee & accuracy is a great Idea.

 

Although one of the problems I have with the current melee vs fitness is a lot of characters share the same kind fitness tree e.g, more HP/shields, & shield regen delay vs Melee damage, & 25-30% more Weapon/Power damage after a kill with heavy melee. Which ends up being a useless tree for most characters, there's very little reason for someone to drop a power or passives on said characters for fitness.

 

I mean, when was the last time any of you did a Melee Vanilla Human Engineer?  :P


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#13
DaemionMoadrin

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Fitness should never have been a choice between shields and melee.

 

Exactly. The kits that need health/shields the most are the ones that are unable to take it, since they go for the melee evolution instead. That's ... problematic game design.

 

I also don't see the point of combined skill trees. Make one for every category instead. Health or Melee? Weapon or Power damage? Why? Instead reduce the damage of the actual powers (Incinerate, Warp, Overload etc) so players who want to use them effectively need to put points into the power damage tree, too. Explosions should scale with that tree, too.

Yeah, that might look a bit overwhelming at first but imagine how much more flexible you can be with ~8 skill trees instead of 5. It wouldn't give the kits new powers but it would give them more options on how to use them.

 

Simple is not always the best solution and reducing options tends to lead to stale gameplay (only 1-2 viable specs for each kit etc).


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#14
capn233

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Combined trees were more or less an attempt to make the power investment look simpler at first glance for those who weren't interested in dealing with "rpg elements," as opposed to something like the ME1 talent screen which has a reputation of a million talents per character.  Although it seems like nearly everyone agrees that in many cases the balancing wasn't right.

 

Since it was brought up, power combos need to be scaled back if anything.  Need to either be more difficult to create (and therefore less frequent), or the damage needs to drop.  Otherwise there isn't much of an incentive to make interesting powers that stand on their own merits and are useful in and of themselves.  And of course the series was a little more interesting when you could Lift/Pull something and throw it further than you could otherwise.


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#15
DaemionMoadrin

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Combined trees were more or less an attempt to make the power investment look simpler at first glance for those who weren't interested in dealing with "rpg elements," as opposed to something like the ME1 talent screen which has a reputation of a million talents per character.  Although it seems like nearly everyone agrees that in many cases the balancing wasn't right.

 

Since it was brought up, power combos need to be scaled back if anything.  Need to either be more difficult to create (and therefore less frequent), or the damage needs to drop.  Otherwise there isn't much of an incentive to make interesting powers that stand on their own merits and are useful in and of themselves.  And of course the series was a little more interesting when you could Lift/Pull something and throw it further than you could otherwise.

 

ME1 is not the way I'd go again. That system was too basic, there were no power interactions and ... I just don't like it. You should get a substantial return for every invested point, not just a 2% increase in weapon damage. The weapon skill trees and the connected gameplay were no fun either.

 

The powers in ME3 and the way they work is close to optimal (except for stuff like Snap Freeze going through walls), we just need to fix tech and biotic explosions. Although I understand that without them being so strong, powers would lose all relevance compared to the damage of weapons. Which is why the powers need to get stronger and the explosions need to be dialed down. You can have either full power damage or massive explosions, but not both. I'd also argue for all primers being detonated at once, so a Throw would blow up a Tech and Biotic Explosion at the same time. With some fire on top, if you used incendiary ammo. ;)

 

Example:

 

N7 Fury. Current skill trees: AF, Throw, DC, N7 Fury and Fitness. I'd keep AF, Throw and DC more or less like they are now and split the other two trees into Power Dmg, Weapon Dmg, Durability and Melee Dmg.

Obviously, those trees would be rather bare without something else added to them. So Power Dmg gets evolutions that increase the damage and radius of biotic explosions, Weapon Dmg could get stability on top of more specialized weapon dmg/headshot/weight, Durability could include damage reduction, a third gate, movement speed or stagger immunity and Melee Dmg could have faster attacks, maybe combos (think of Warlord golf swing combo), special attacks or simply more boni for melee kills (we already have Power Synergy with 30% more power damage after a heavy melee kill).

 

Seven trees, but you'd only have enough points to max five.

 

 

P.S. The powers in ME1 and ME2 were more varied... and stronger. You could lift a Geth Prime... but aside from being awesome, that didn't actually kill it. That was left to your weapons. We also shouldn't forget that cooldowns in those games were much longer, so the powers had to be stronger for balance. Your squadmates in ME2 have 12sec cooldowns, with Liara having 9sec if you go the Asari Controller route (LotSB). She's also the only one who (barely) can self detonate combos.

ME1 cooldowns were so long, you were able to use each of your powers once during a fight. They only sped up towards the end, when you were using lvl X gear and had 50+ levels of your own. Most of the time you were simply shooting enemies, with a little crowd control thrown in. You almost never actually killed anything with powers directly.


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#16
HamleticTortoise

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Combined trees were more or less an attempt to make the power investment look simpler at first glance for those who weren't interested in dealing with "rpg elements," as opposed to something like the ME1 talent screen which has a reputation of a million talents per character.  Although it seems like nearly everyone agrees that in many cases the balancing wasn't right.

 

Since it was brought up, power combos need to be scaled back if anything.  Need to either be more difficult to create (and therefore less frequent), or the damage needs to drop.  Otherwise there isn't much of an incentive to make interesting powers that stand on their own merits and are useful in and of themselves.  And of course the series was a little more interesting when you could Lift/Pull something and throw it further than you could otherwise.

 

I agree on the need to balance explosions. In particular, I think they should be made more difficult to self-detonate; in other words, they should become a key element in fostering cooperation: the reward for sticking together and playing as a team.

 

On topic: I would love to see more viable builds for melee, the current trade-off melee/hp makes little sense and generally discourages the active use of melee. Sync killers already provide a counter for melee units, I don't really see the need to penalize CQC kits further. Here's hoping this thread will provide some interesting insight on possible implementations! ;)


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#17
Jeremiah12LGeek

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I want to be able to perform massive Killer Instinct-style combos.

 

I wanna hear the Shuttle Pilot yell, "M-M-M-M-MEGA ULTRA SUPER COMBO!!!"

 

Then I want the Phantom to stand there, in a looping animation of her head rolling around while she loses balance and I enter a super-long, super-complicated button sequence to the tune of, "Finish her!"

 

Then, when executed perfectly... My Shadow would drop the sword, remove the Phantoms' helmut, and make out with her.

 

sisters_until_the_end_by_lonefirewarrior

 

Instead of "Fatality..." "Sexuality!"


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#18
Jeremiah12LGeek

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I'm not really holding out much hope for all that, to be honest, but more melee is good.


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#19
Mission_Scrubbed

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I agree on the need to balance explosions. In particular, I think they should be made more difficult to self-detonate; in other words, they should become a key element in fostering cooperation: the reward for sticking together and playing as a team.

Andromeda should be build around this idea. But honestly, knowing that Biovar can't hit the brakes when it comes to Dlc's power creep, how long do you think "teamwork" is going to last?

 

Anyway, I'm excited to see what the new sync-kills will be.


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#20
Ghost Of N7_SP3CTR3

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What is this teamwork You speak of?
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#21
Saikyo_McRyu

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Well, fortunately the SAIKYO MASTER is your go-to melee combat spetcialast. Glad you consulted me; you'll receive an invoice presently.

Light melee is way too ambiguous as to where you are hitting and how far your reach is. Animations need to be clearer to more closely indicate your "hitbox." Add a little variety in the attacks, as well. How about specializing in a sword like them dumb phantoms? I agree we ought to be able to knock mooks down and leave them for teammates to finish, or just shove them aside on the way to an objective. ME1 otherwise had the worst combat of the series - no reason to import too much from that title.

And yes, melee damage and health/shields absolutely need to be decoupled.

Of course, the most important additions would be the Koryuken, Dankukyaku, and Gadoken, and of course we must be able to taunt the enemy. How can you have any expectation of success without slapping your butt and thumbing your nose at the gruesome foe? YAHOOOO!
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#22
capn233

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P.S. The powers in ME1 and ME2 were more varied... and stronger. You could lift a Geth Prime... but aside from being awesome, that didn't actually kill it. That was left to your weapons. We also shouldn't forget that cooldowns in those games were much longer, so the powers had to be stronger for balance. Your squadmates in ME2 have 12sec cooldowns, with Liara having 9sec if you go the Asari Controller route (LotSB). She's also the only one who (barely) can self detonate combos.

ME1 cooldowns were so long, you were able to use each of your powers once during a fight. They only sped up towards the end, when you were using lvl X gear and had 50+ levels of your own. Most of the time you were simply shooting enemies, with a little crowd control thrown in. You almost never actually killed anything with powers directly.

 

I don't entirely agree with some of the characterizations here, but I obviously agree with the idea that practical power recharge time likely needs to increase from where it was in ME3 in order to allow more room to make individual powers more useful.  And need to make changes to enemies to make CC more useful.

 

Including combo damage, powers are the most powerful in ME3, even though many individual powers are mediocre and may as well be called "primer" and "detonator."


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#23
LoonySpectre

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Perhaps make some specialized melee powers, like in Dragon Age Inquisition? You get the usual light and heavy melee, and, if you decide to specialize, you can, I don't know, uppercut the foes with batarian glove or perform cool tricks with your sword.



#24
Shampoohorn

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Melee was an afterthought in the single player campaign, i.e. the main component of the game.  Bioware made a nice effort to put it into the MP side of things but it was always a square peg in a round hole.  Examples being the fitness-or-melee conundrum and its exclusion from a number of universal boosts.  Aside from the weapon attachment's multiplicative bonuses, most of the cool perks from melee seem like fortunate accidents. 

 

Given their attention in the final DLC packs to melee specific kits, I'm hopeful that they'll remember it as they design ME4.

 

However, a lot of that is dependent on who is shaping the game.  Despite their success with ME3MP, the followed it up with DAIMP.  People get moved around, given different responsibilities and the wisdom of past ages is not passed down.  

 

We'll see. :)



#25
Excella Gionne

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I really hope they add Pelvic Thrust to the list of melee animations. 


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