363 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

In all seriousness I just don't think the Elves were handled in a super interesting way per se, it's kind of the thorn in DA. It's almost like they didn't really know what to do with them so they kind of got spewed all over.

 

At the end of the day, I feel like LOTR just casts this long shadow and games that take them too seriously invariably take them to strange places, whereas games that deal with them more casually are often in much better shape.

 

I think D&D does them best.. there's like.... dozens of elf variations. And most of them don't like each other either.

 

All of the races are like that actually.

[Seraphim24]

At first, it felt weird to have a huge bow and arrow drawn on my elven warrior's face. But then I remembered that the vallaslin represents the elven gods, not the wearer. And all hunters abide by Andruil's Vir Tanadhal.


I believe TES did a pretty good job.

 

 

I think D&D does them best.. there's like.... dozens of elf variations. And most of them don't like each other either.

 

All of the races are like that actually.

 

 

I was actually literally thinking of certain shades of TES and D&D when I said that.

[straykat]

If we make direct comparisons, then I'd say TES does it better too. Because they both have a lost past/disgruntledness about them. But I don't know.. I like the whole Shor vs Elf thing more.

[Seraphim24]

If we make direct comparisons, then I'd say TES does it better too. Because they both have a lost past/disgruntledness about them. But I don't know.. I like the whole Shor vs Elf thing more.

 

Well it depends on the TES and the D&D setting as far as I'm concerned there's so much diversity and change over time. 

 

I'm not even sure some D&D settings like Planescape etc really even have Elves? Or do they I can't remember.

 

PS did you watch any other movies?

[straykat]

No, I took a break. I'm watching some unfunny Stand Up comic in the background.

 

Usually when I think of D&D, I think of Faerun/Forgotten Realms .

[Seraphim24]

No, I took a break. I'm watching some unfunny Stand Up comic in the background.

 

Usually when I think of D&D, I think of Faerun/Forgotten Realms .

 

Yeah that's kind of the one I think of also at any rate...

[Qun00]

You know what's funny? DAO already had color options for vallaslin, but I couldn't bring myself to go with anything other than black.

Sure, if you squint hard enough you can notice that some Dalish npcs display a faint yellow or greenish tone in their vallaslin, but it's closer to grey.

I didn't want my Warden to look like a peacock by being the only one with visibly red or blue markings.

[straykat]

I use close to black. The dark brown.. whatever it is. Like the 4th option.

[Apo]

While I'm sure that most people who played DAO when it was new just went with whatever tattoo design seemed cooler, that choice is harder with everything we know now.

Inquisition did get an official chart that shows which elven god the designs correspond to, but we still rely on fan speculation to figure out DAO's unique version.

And since a strong guess isn't enough for me, the only options I'm comfortable with are Andruil, June, Elgar'nan, Ghilan'nain and Sylaise because those are the only ones that haven't changed much, so I won't be confused about their meaning.

 

I always go for the Mythal tatoo in DA:O, since it was my favourite design first and now that we know it was hers, it makes a lot of sense for my Mahariel because i play him as the protector of the clan, so it suits him just fine

[Qun00]

That's hilarious. Nobody actually knows what was Mythal's vallaslin in DAO.

The one they think is Mythal's turned out to be Falon'din's in DAI. It's identical. And well, that old belief was based on fan speculation.

We eventually got confirmation from Matt Rhodes but it only concerns DAI's designs.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I didn't want my Warden to look like a peacock by being the only one with visibly red or blue markings.

That's less of a problem in Inquisition, since we only meet a few Dalish elves and don't start in their camp.

[Qun00]

And the few you do meet have colorful vallaslin just like you, so it's fine.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

And the few you do meet have colorful vallaslin just like you, so it's fine.

Do they, or was that sarcasm? I honestly didn't pay much attention, so I wouldn't know.

[Ghost Gal]

I think D&D does them best.. there's like.... dozens of elf variations. And most of them don't like each other either.
 
All of the races are like that actually.

Except for humans, because implying that humans of different skin colors and ethnicities are entirely different sub races that are genetically predisposed to being this way or thst way (like pale ones being drawn to sedentary "civilized" society while tan ones are naturally inclined toward tribal forest life and/or rural isolation) is bad, but doing it with literally every other race is fine.

Yeah, I know they're fictional races, but I find it a tad off that the pale members of each race are shown to embrace "civilized" metropolitan society, the tan ones of each race are savage and/ isolationist (wood elves in the woods, golden elves and golden dwarves living in haughty racial isolation, etc), and the black ones are inclined toward hostility and/or extreme unfriendlyiendliness to outsiders (dark elves, dark dwarves, deep gnomes, etc).

If you're not going to say that humans of different ethnicities are different genetic subraces, or humans of different ethnicities are genetically predisposed to having this kind of temperament or that kind of lifestyle, then don't do it with the other races. Make it consistent across the board.

That's why I like the way DA handles race better. There aren't different races of elves where some are genetically inclined to city life and others evolved for forest life; they're all elves, and their different lifestyles and values are socially, culturally constructed. Dalish aren't inherently more in tune with nature than city elves, they're just more familiar with it because they were raised with it. Elves aren't (necessarily) more inclined to use bows than humans because they're born with that preference, the Dalish's culture values it more; partly due to tradition, partly due to its use in hunting for food, partly because they're better ranged fighters than close quarter fighters with humans.

Or, if you really want a game with subraces, I like how Pillars of Eternity handles it better than D&D. They only have or or three subraces per race rather than a dozen or so; said subraces are subtle and are given in-universe reasons for having thr traits they do. For example, pale elves are semi-albino and have a cold resistance due to millennia of living in isolation at their world's south pole. Low light exposure = light skin, ancestors evolving to deal with harsh arctic climate = minor cild resistance. Other subraces only really have skin-deep differences, akind to human ethnicities. In fact, in this game humans have "subraces" too: ocean, meadow, and plains humans. Like with dwarves or elves and other races, it's mostly an ethnicity thing and we're given comprehensive reasons for why they look the way they do; ocean humans live near their world's equator and oceans and so have dark skin, meadow humans live in temperate climates and othe look pale like Europeans, and plains humans live in fertile savannas like the great plains of the US, so they look like natives.

I think both DA and PoE handle their races a lot better and consistently than D&D's BS "all races have subraces except humans, and all those subraces make them genetically predisposed to X, Y, and Z the way we'd never say for human ethnicities." Either make subraces for everyone (PoE), or drop it and just say it's different cultures and upbringings (DA).

[Qun00]

TES got different elven races, but it goes beyond genetics. For an example, Dark elves were transformed by a Daedric Prince.

[straykat]

Except for humans, because implying that humans of different skin colors and ethnicities are entirely different sub races that are genetically predisposed to being this way or thst way (like pale ones being drawn to sedentary "civilized" society while tan ones are naturally inclined toward tribal forest life and/or rural isolation) is bad, but doing it with literally every other race is fine.

Yeah, I know they're fictional races, but I find it a tad off that the pale members of each race are shown to embrace "civilized" metropolitan society, the tan ones of each race are savage and/ isolationist (wood elves in the woods, golden elves and golden dwarves living in haughty racial isolation, etc), and the black ones are inclined toward hostility and/or extreme unfriendlyiendliness to outsiders (dark elves, dark dwarves, deep gnomes, etc).

If you're not going to say that humans of different ethnicities are different genetic subraces, or humans of different ethnicities are genetically predisposed to having this kind of temperament or that kind of lifestyle, then don't do it with the other races. Make it consistent across the board.

That's why I like the way DA handles race better. There aren't different races of elves where some are genetically inclined to city life and others evolved for forest life; they're all elves, and their different lifestyles and values are socially, culturally constructed. Dalish aren't inherently more in tune with nature than city elves, they're just more familiar with it because they were raised with it. Elves aren't (necessarily) more inclined to use bows than humans because they're born with that preference, the Dalish's culture values it more; partly due to tradition, partly due to its use in hunting for food, partly because they're better ranged fighters than close quarter fighters with humans.

Or, if you really want a game with subraces, I like how Pillars of Eternity handles it better than D&D. They only have or or three subraces per race rather than a dozen or so; said subraces are subtle and are given in-universe reasons for having thr traits they do. For example, pale elves are semi-albino and have a cold resistance due to millennia of living in isolation at their world's south pole. Low light exposure = light skin, ancestors evolving to deal with harsh arctic climate = minor cild resistance. Other subraces only really have skin-deep differences, akind to human ethnicities. In fact, in this game humans have "subraces" too: ocean, meadow, and plains humans. Like with dwarves or elves and other races, it's mostly an ethnicity thing and we're given comprehensive reasons for why they look the way they do; ocean humans live near their world's equator and oceans and so have dark skin, meadow humans live in temperate climates and othe look pale like Europeans, and plains humans live in fertile savannas like the great plains of the US, so they look like natives.

I think both DA and PoE handle their races a lot better and consistently than D&D's BS "all races have subraces except humans, and all those subraces make them genetically predisposed to X, Y, and Z the way we'd never say for human ethnicities." Either make subraces for everyone (PoE), or drop it and just say it's different cultures and upbringings (DA).

 

You make good points.. but technically the DA elves do make better archers. That's why Loghain used them. They see farther and can see in the dark easier.

 

The Dark Elves in D&D though are very civilized in their own way. They're just gloomy bastards.

[ThomasBlaine]

I think both DA and PoE handle their races a lot better and consistently than D&D's BS "all races have subraces except humans, and all those subraces make them genetically predisposed to X, Y, and Z the way we'd never say for human ethnicities." Either make subraces for everyone (PoE), or drop it and just say it's different cultures and upbringings (DA).

 

But... humans do have several subraces listed in the game books, and most of the predispositions(assuming you're talking about racial ability modifiers and favored classes) are indeed justified by the cultural and practical influences the average member of each race is subject to from birth. Do you have some examples of which specific racial traits you have a problem with?

[Qun00]

Not sure about you guys, but it bothers me to see the Dalish Warden kneel before Anora (sole ruler) during that cutscene in Awakening.

If it's Alistair, there is the mitigating factor that he is a close friend. But bowing to Anora is a display of reverence to human rule that makes no sense when you're playing a Dalish elf.

[straykat]

That's true...

 

Although there's remarkably little of these railroady moments in DAO. So look on the positive side

[Seraphim24]

Except for humans, because implying that humans of different skin colors and ethnicities are entirely different sub races that are genetically predisposed to being this way or thst way (like pale ones being drawn to sedentary "civilized" society while tan ones are naturally inclined toward tribal forest life and/or rural isolation) is bad, but doing it with literally every other race is fine.

Yeah, I know they're fictional races, but I find it a tad off that the pale members of each race are shown to embrace "civilized" metropolitan society, the tan ones of each race are savage and/ isolationist (wood elves in the woods, golden elves and golden dwarves living in haughty racial isolation, etc), and the black ones are inclined toward hostility and/or extreme unfriendlyiendliness to outsiders (dark elves, dark dwarves, deep gnomes, etc).

If you're not going to say that humans of different ethnicities are different genetic subraces, or humans of different ethnicities are genetically predisposed to having this kind of temperament or that kind of lifestyle, then don't do it with the other races. Make it consistent across the board.

That's why I like the way DA handles race better. There aren't different races of elves where some are genetically inclined to city life and others evolved for forest life; they're all elves, and their different lifestyles and values are socially, culturally constructed. Dalish aren't inherently more in tune with nature than city elves, they're just more familiar with it because they were raised with it. Elves aren't (necessarily) more inclined to use bows than humans because they're born with that preference, the Dalish's culture values it more; partly due to tradition, partly due to its use in hunting for food, partly because they're better ranged fighters than close quarter fighters with humans.

Or, if you really want a game with subraces, I like how Pillars of Eternity handles it better than D&D. They only have or or three subraces per race rather than a dozen or so; said subraces are subtle and are given in-universe reasons for having thr traits they do. For example, pale elves are semi-albino and have a cold resistance due to millennia of living in isolation at their world's south pole. Low light exposure = light skin, ancestors evolving to deal with harsh arctic climate = minor cild resistance. Other subraces only really have skin-deep differences, akind to human ethnicities. In fact, in this game humans have "subraces" too: ocean, meadow, and plains humans. Like with dwarves or elves and other races, it's mostly an ethnicity thing and we're given comprehensive reasons for why they look the way they do; ocean humans live near their world's equator and oceans and so have dark skin, meadow humans live in temperate climates and othe look pale like Europeans, and plains humans live in fertile savannas like the great plains of the US, so they look like natives.

I think both DA and PoE handle their races a lot better and consistently than D&D's BS "all races have subraces except humans, and all those subraces make them genetically predisposed to X, Y, and Z the way we'd never say for human ethnicities." Either make subraces for everyone (PoE), or drop it and just say it's different cultures and upbringings (DA).

 

I don't know you can say DA does Elves better... D&D probably has problems, of one kind or another.

 

But DA is a case of open hostility and violence towards Elves, like one of the core themes of DA is that like the Elves are bad and Elves should just feel bad because Elves. I'm not making that up either that was the stated intention of the writers I believe, that these hatreds would be a part of the world. 

 

It's like how lets say historically Germany may have had problems with anti-semitism (well during WW2, to put it lightly) and yet despite that the country has and probably even still is far ahead of the likes of England or some other places at similar areas of history where it was so extreme you, well, literally basically didn't have any Jewish people at all in those countries at various points in their history (such as Edward I's expulsion). In fact, Germany was probably one of the centers for Jewish people more or less such as with Worms and other areas, in like all of Europe, and by extension, much of the world. 

 

The case of DA is more like a world of that historical pure English hatred and eviction, rather than a tormented/conflicted history similar to found in some aspects of D&D. 

 

Only on BSN could people advertise near non-existence and irrelevance as superior to suffering... 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Not sure about you guys, but it bothers me to see the Dalish Warden kneel before Anora (sole ruler) during that cutscene in Awakening.

If it's Alistair, there is the mitigating factor that he is a close friend. But bowing to Anora is a display of reverence to human rule that makes no sense when you're playing a Dalish elf.

You've already been railroaded into accepting a position as a lord subordinate to Anora. Once you've submitted that far it makes no sense to hold out for the right not to bow, since you already signed that away. You can argue that the whole thing makes no damn sense, though, for reasons including but not limited to the fact that this means you are Anora's subordinate.

 

 

Only on BSN could people advertise near non-existence and irrelevance as superior to suffering... 

Not really. The Dalish do it too.

[ThomasBlaine]

Not sure about you guys, but it bothers me to see the Dalish Warden kneel before Anora (sole ruler) during that cutscene in Awakening.

If it's Alistair, there is the mitigating factor that he is a close friend. But bowing to Anora is a display of reverence to human rule that makes no sense when you're playing a Dalish elf.

 

I don't find that implausible at all. Every living creature on Earth has powerful instincts pertaining to how to act in the presence of authority. Knowing that someone could point at you and decide your death on impulse, your pride would have to be pretty damn big for you not to be as polite as at all possible to that person. Rationally, offending a queen of proven ruthlessness to whom you pay your taxes would be monstrously stupid. The Wardens presumably want a good relationship with the Crown. Even the Orlesian Warden Commander lowers him/herself enough to kneel to Loghain bloody Mac Tir's daughter.

 

If a Dalish still abjectly refused to show respect for human royalty after the events of Origins, I'd have a hard time justifying that elf still being a Grey Warden rather than having deserted and simply gone looking for a new clan.

[Qun00]

(Clears throat) "We are the Dalish. Keepers of the lost lore, walkers of the lonely path. We are the last of the elvhenan and never again shall we submit."

Now, I assume you haven't read The Calling? "Behind him, Genevieve dropped to one knee, as did the others. Duncan reluctantly followed suit. He had been told that their order owed fealty to no nation and no king, but apparently they still bent knee when they felt like putting on a good show."

If they ever bow to anyone, it is unusual and not their way. They are an independent group that answers to no one, which is part of why people didn't trust them in less glorious times.

Also, lol @ paying taxes.

[ThomasBlaine]

(Clears throat) "We are the Dalish. Keepers of the lost lore, walkers of the lonely path. We are the last of the elvhenan and never again shall we submit."

Now, I assume you haven't read The Calling? "Behind him, Genevieve dropped to one knee, as did the others. Duncan reluctantly followed suit. He had been told that their order owed fealty to no nation and no king, but apparently they still bent knee when they felt like putting on a good show."

If they ever bow to anyone, it is unusual and not their way. They are an independent group that answers to no one, which is part of why people didn't trust them in less glorious times.

Also, lol @ paying taxes.

 

I have, in fact, read The Calling. And your quote there illustrates perfectly that Wardens have no problem offering their respects when diplomacy is called for. Duncan is a recent recruit, a street rat and barely more than a teenager, what does he know about how Wardens actually conduct themselves in front of royalty?

 

The Dalish vow not to submit is a vow not to let themselves be enslaved, not a vow never to show appreciation for human authority figures on general principle, even when such an attitude would serve no purpose other than to offend the powerful people who just put you in charge of an entire Arling. As would refusing to pay the Crown taxes. Amaranthine isn't independent just because it's governed by Wardens, Anora can take it away from you as easily as she gave it. The locals sure wouldn't complain if relieved of their new Dalish master.

 

I think you're taking the Grey Warden and Dalish motivational slogans rather too seriously. Proper courtesy isn't the same thing as letting yourself be subjugated, or compromising your political neutrality.

[Qun00]

As far as courtesy is concerned, a simple "Greetings, King Maric. I am grateful that you've granted us an audience" should suffice. Genevieve's asskissing in order to ask for a favor as Loghain correctly pointed out was beneath her.

And yes, from a Dalish perspective that already is a form of submission. They frown upon the way city elves live and how they accept human rule.