107 réponses à ce sujet

[Qun00]

There is the idea that they must sever their ties with the world in order to do their job.

"You will guard them and they will hate you for it. Whenever there is not a Blight actively crawling over the surface, humanity will do its best to forget how much they need you. And that's good. We need to stand apart from them, even if they have to push us away to make us do it. That is the only way we can ever make the hard decisions.

Kristoff, former Commander of the Grey of Orlais"

And if you speak to Alistair in Ostagar he gives you an example of their "grey" morality, as they would even burn down a village to kill all darkspawn in it.

Now, here is the thing. They pretend that they don't need to be part of this world. That they don't need a mantain a good reputation. And yet, ending a Blight often requires gathering support and earning favors.

It was the case with Garahel, as it was with the Hero of Ferelden later on. And make no mistake: Even if their numbers in Ferelden hadn't been "too few" as Duncan mentioned and the Ostagar tragedy never happened, it still would've been necessary to get outside help. The Grey Wardens cannot defeat the bulk of the horde on their own.

And guess what, people may be more or less inclined to help depending on how they feel about you.

[Just My Moniker]

True, but you can't maintain a relationship like that with all nations as a rogue group. As you quoted "You will guard them, and they will hate you for it."

Nations don't like rogue groups in their borders (and out of them) no matter if they helped them out or not (Just look at what happened to the Inquisition in Trespasser)

 

The occurrence of a Blight, however, makes everyone realize just how much they need the fabled Grey Wardens who reemerge when the time is right to have the public's desperate goodwill in their favor.

 

So, while having good relations with countries would be essential to garnering support and allies, that isn't something the Grey Warden's can maintain over hundreds of years at a time, and they can really only rely on the fear and desperation of the people during a Blight, in that regard.

[Abyss108]

Tell people the secret to defeating the Archdemon and you wouldn't need Gray Wardens at all...

[diaspora2k5]

Tell people the secret to defeating the Archdemon and you wouldn't need Gray Wardens at all...

Well, I mean that's patently untrue. Even had everyone else known about killing the archdemon, the 4th blight would have destroyed thedas without them.

[Dai Grepher]

Yep. That's why my Hero established the Silver Order and had the Vigil's Keep soldiers defend the farms. The Order needs regular soldiers as well as taint carriers, and they must be directed to protect the people so they never forget their true purpose *cough*Adamant*Cough*.

[diaspora2k5]

Yep. That's why my Hero established the Silver Order and had the Vigil's Keep soldiers defend the farms. The Order needs regular soldiers as well as taint carriers, and they must be directed to protect the people so they never forget their true purpose *cough*Adamant*Cough*.

Weisshaupt does this too. They use mage initiates as regular scholars/researchers and they use normal templars they recruit as a means to investigate and communicate with other branches.

[Just My Moniker]

Tell people the secret to defeating the Archdemon and you wouldn't need Gray Wardens at all...

Well seeing as how the secret to defeating an Archdemon is BEING a Grey Warden....

 

 

[Qun00]

Tell people the secret to defeating the Archdemon and you wouldn't need Gray Wardens at all...

They would have to become Grey Wardens themselves. With a different name and rules if they prefer, but it's essentially the same.

[Dai Grepher]

Weisshaupt does this too. They use mage initiates as regular scholars/researchers and they use normal templars they recruit as a means to investigate and communicate with other branches.

 

I think I remember something about that. Irving says something about the Wardens gaining all kinds of different magical techniques from mages over the centuries (if a bloodmage during the Broken Circle quest). Never heard that about templars though. But I think regular soldiers also need to be present to guard against corruption.

[Iakus]

Tell people the secret to defeating the Archdemon and you wouldn't need Gray Wardens at all...

Tell people the secret to defeating archdemons and you'll have a serious recruitment problem.

[Abyss108]

Well, I mean that's patently untrue. Even had everyone else known about killing the archdemon, the 4th blight would have destroyed thedas without them.

 

No, Thedas just needed armies. It doesn't need the Gray Wardens specifically.

 

Well seeing as how the secret to defeating an Archdemon is BEING a Grey Warden....

 

 

 

 

They would have to become Grey Wardens themselves. With a different name and rules if they prefer, but it's essentially the same.

 

No, the Gray Wardens are an organisation. One that favours hoarding knowledge to protect their own interests, rather than sharing it so other people can take up the fight too. 

 

You need someone to drink Darkspawn blood to strike the final blow. You don't need a foreign army for that.

[Iakus]

I think I remember something about that. Irving says something about the Wardens gaining all kinds of different magical techniques from mages over the centuries (if a bloodmage during the Broken Circle quest). Never heard that about templars though. But I think regular soldiers also need to be present to guard against corruption.

Traditionally, each Circle has a single member join the Grey Wardens, and they groom a mage for the task.

 

Dunno what they do if said mage dies in the Joining.  Pick a new one, maybe?

[Abyss108]

Tell people the secret to defeating archdemons and you'll have a serious recruitment problem.

 

If that was true, no one would be a warden in the first place anyway. They would have all turned into Jory when they found out and run away. And yet we still have wardens. Those same people who drank the blood to become Wardens can still do that. They just won't be part of their own organisation.

 

And that assumes you even give people the choice. Countries can do what the Gray Wardens already do and send criminals who have death sentence. Gives them better odds that what they already have. 

 

The difference is that if a battle goes wrong and they get killed, there are still other people who have the knowledge and can try again. 

[Just My Moniker]

No, Thedas just needed armies. It doesn't need the Gray Wardens specifically.

 

 

 

 

No, they Gray Wardens are an organisation. One that favours hoarding knowledge to protect their own interests, rather than sharing it so other people can take up the fight too. 

 

You need someone to drink Darkspawn blood to strike the final blow. You don't need a foreign army for that.

You can't just have ONE person to drink darkspawn blood to defeat the archdemon, because what if that person dies before getting to the archdemon? You're screwed. You need an army of people who have taken the drought.

 

And this army would need to be trained to fight darkspawn, not just stay on the surface practicing. They need to be down in the Deep Roads getting the experience they need, further distancing themselves from a regular fighting force.

 

So, no matter how you look at it, you need an organisation wholly dedicated to drinking darkspawn blood to combat the blight, not just a select few people in a regular army.

[Iakus]

 

No, they Gray Wardens are an organisation. One that favours hoarding knowledge to protect their own interests, rather than sharing it so other people can take up the fight too. 

 

You need someone to drink Darkspawn blood to strike the final blow. You don't need a foreign army for that.

The Wardens are an organization devoted to ending Blights at all costs.  As such they investigate darkspawn even when Blights are not happening.  And they study dark and scary things in order to find new weapons against them.  They investigate things and perform tasks unsuitable for polite society.  And they have done many questionable things in the past.  Things that have both saved Thedas and things which have blown up spectacularly.  And in at least one case, it was both at once.  They are also an organization of people expected to die for everyone else's sake.

[Iakus]

If that was true, no one would be a warden in the first place anyway. They would have all turned into Jory when they found out and run away. And yet we still have wardens. Those same people who drank the blood to become Wardens can still do that. They just won't be part of their own organisation.

 

And that assumes you even give people the choice. Countries can do what the Gray Wardens already do and send criminals who have death sentence. Gives them better odds that what they already have. 

 

The difference is that if a battle goes wrong and they get killed, there are still other people who have the knowledge and can try again. 

 

Jory just knew that the Joining could kill him, and it freaked him out.  He is almost certainly not unique.

 

What if you told them that even if they survived, the taint will still dramatically lower their lifespans?  Dramatically lower your odds of ever having children?  Have the taint consume you?  And that in the end their options were "suicide by darkspawn" or ghouldom?  Who'd want to go through that?

 

And then the whole "killing the archdemon kills you too" part?  Think that will bring people clamoring to join?

 

No, there's a reason they keep this stuff secret.  It keeps the Wardens a dark, mysterious, and dare I say, "romantic" organization.  It keeps them looking like a band of heroes who fights monsters, while overlooking the fact that they have to, in a sense, become a bit of a monster to do so. 

[Qun00]

If you simply drink darkspawn blood without the magic involved in the Joining, you're gonna die.

Is this the same guy that kept insisting that Grey Wardens can be replaced with ghouls in the other thread?

[Abyss108]

You can't just have ONE person to drink darkspawn blood to defeat the archdemon, because what if that person dies before getting to the archdemon? You're screwed. You need an army of people who have taken the drought.

 

And this army would need to be trained to fight darkspawn, not just stay on the surface practicing. They need to be down in the Deep Roads getting the experience they need, further distancing themselves from a regular fighting force.

 

So, no matter how you look at it, you need an organisation wholly dedicated to drinking darkspawn blood to combat the blight, not just a select few people in a regular army.

 

There's no difference to fighting darkspawn than any other army once you've already drank their blood. You fought that army in Origins with no more than 3 Gray Wardens and perfectly normal armies who hadn't even done that. And yes, only giving it to 1 person would be stupid, you have a force of people drink it. You already have an army of people who are willing to risk their lives and most likely die if you are fighting Darkspawn in the first place. 

 

There is nothing special about needing the Gray Warden organisation as their own secret force. It doesn't magically make those people more willing to fight than if it was a force organised within the country.

 

The Wardens are an organization devoted to ending Blights at all costs.  As such they investigate darkspawn even when Blights are not happening.  And they study dark and scary things in order to find new weapons against them.  They investigate things and perform tasks unsuitable for polite society.  And they have done many questionable things in the past.  Things that have both saved Thedas and things which have blown up spectacularly.  And in at least one case, it was both at once.  They are also an organization of people expected to die for everyone else's sake.

 

Considering we still have Blights, that hasn't helped at all, and all those things can be done by countries, where the people will actually be held accountable instead of giving it to a bunch of criminals who have full reign to abuse whatever power they want in pursuit of "stopping the blight" and nothing to lose.

[Just My Moniker]

There's no difference to fighting darkspawn than any other army once you've already drank their blood. You fought that army in Origins with no more than 3 Gray Wardens and perfectly normal armies who hadn't even done that. And yes, only giving it to 1 person would be stupid, you have a force of people drink it. You already have an army of people who are willing to risk their lives and most likely die if you are fighting Darkspawn in the first place. 

 

There is nothing special about needing the Gray Warden organisation as their own secret force. It doesn't magically make those people more willing to fight than if it was a force organised within the country.

 

 

Considering we still have Blights, that hasn't helped at all, and all those things can be done by countries, where the people will actually be held accountable instead of giving it to a bunch of criminals who have full reign to abuse whatever power they want in pursuit of "stopping the blight" and nothing to lose.

You say this like the countries of Thedas would actually keep and maintain a fighting force that they would only need every few hundred years or so.

 

Obviously, you need the Grey Wardens at all times, but kingdoms are ignorant, and are only interested in immediate threats and consolidating their own power, so they would axe their Grey Warden units, training, and funding pretty quick after everything returned to normal post-blight. And the next time a blight rolled around, they would be insufficiently prepared for such an event.

 

With something as massive and as dangerous as darkspawn and the blight, you need an organisation solely dedicated to it, unimpeded by the constraints of outside powers that would totally under-utilise and completely mismanage their efforts.

 

Edit: Also, it took almost all of Ferelden being engulfed by darkspawn and the threat of genocide to get the people to finally stand against the darkspawn because they're terrified of these monsters. Regular armies without experience fighting darkspawn just wouldn't have the morale and courage it takes to fight darkspawn.

[Abyss108]

If you simply drink darkspawn blood without the magic involved in the Joining, you're gonna die.

Is this the same guy that kept insisting that Grey Wardens can be replaced with ghouls in the other thread?

 

Are you really picking holes because I couldn't be bothered to type the words "with the magic involved" every time I typed "drink blood"?   I know there is magic involved, if there wasn't we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place because "Gray Wardens" would just be every single person who got a bit of blood in their mouth during a blight. There would be no secret knowledge for them to hoard, everyone would already know by this point.

 

Jory just knew that the Joining could kill him, and it freaked him out.  He is almost certainly not unique.

 

What if you told them that even if they survived, the taint will still dramatically lower their lifespans?  Dramatically lower your odds of ever having children?  Have the taint consume you?  And that in the end their options were "suicide by darkspawn" or ghouldom?  Who'd want to go through that?

 

And then the whole "killing the archdemon kills you too" part?  Think that will bring people clamoring to join?

 

No, there's a reason they keep this stuff secret.  It keeps the Wardens a dark, mysterious, and dare I say, "romantic" organization.  It keeps them looking like a band of heroes who fights monsters, while overlooking the fact that they have to, in a sense, become a bit of a monster to do so. 

 

People have the right to make that choice for themselves. There are plenty of Wardens who don't freak out and leave, the fact that the "wardens" would now be officially part of a country's forces hasn't changed any of this. If you are fighting in the army during a war you have already said you are willing to give up your life.

 

If you actually had countries working together to find a solution instead of deciding it wasn't their responsibility and they should just let a tiny force of Wardens worry about it, maybe we would actually get somewhere.

[Qun00]

We don't need Grey Wardens. We need them to stop keeping secrets and tell people how to become... what they are. Alright then.

Anyway, the sooner we can get back to the original topic the better.

[Abyss108]

You say this like the countries of Thedas would actually keep and maintain a fighting force that they would only need every few hundred years or so.

 

Obviously, you need the Grey Wardens at all times, but kingdoms are ignorant, and are only interested in immediate threats and consolidating their own power, so they would axe their Grey Warden units, training, and funding pretty quick after everything returned to normal post-blight. And the next time a blight rolled around, they would be insufficiently prepared for such an event.

 

With something as massive and as dangerous as darkspawn and the blight, you need an organisation solely dedicated to it, unimpeded by the constraints of outside powers that would totally under-utilise and completely mismanage their efforts.

 

Edit: Also, it took almost all of Ferelden being engulfed by darkspawn and the threat of genocide to get the people to finally stand against the darkspawn because they're terrified of these monsters. Regular armies without experience fighting darkspawn just wouldn't have the morale and courage it takes to fight darkspawn.

 

Why do you need them when the Darkspawn aren't around? What can't normal people achieve then? What have the Wardens achieved here?

 

Drinking magic + blood does not give you more courage than anybody else. And once again, you fought them in in Origins with several normal armies. I don't remember them running away. If normal armies didn't fight Darkspawn you wouldn't have treaties for normal armies in the first place. Every Blight has countries being engulfed by Darkspawn and the threat of genocide. Doesn't change if you put "wardens" under the control of different countries.

[Aren]

I wonder if Riordan answer in DAO was genuine or if he was just lying.

When the protagonist asked to him as for why this secret is not shared with the world,he say that is done because otherwise no one would want to become a warden.

However i  think that it is done for monopoly,to allow the wardens to have such a great power like their treaties,virtually they can go to Empress Celene and tell to her to join them....

Every soldier is ready to die the moment S/he decide to become a soldier,so that excuse from Riordan part is  phatetic.

[Aren]

If you simply drink darkspawn blood without the magic involved in the Joining, you're gonna die.

Is this the same guy that kept insisting that Grey Wardens can be replaced with ghouls in the other thread?

There is no need for the joining ritual or the archdemon blood in order to become a GW,the joining ritual is just a more effective way to improve the potency of the darkspawn taint and turn a person into a GW,but the story of an accidental GW created simply by drinking darkspawn blood could be made and Gaider was clear on this long ago.

http://forum.bioware...-over-ferelden/

[Iakus]

 

People have the right to make that choice for themselves. There are plenty of Wardens who don't freak out and leave, the fact that the "wardens" would now be officially part of a country's forces hasn't changed any of this. If you are fighting in the army during a war you have already said you are willing to give up your life.

 

If you actually had countries working together to find a solution instead of deciding it wasn't their responsibility and they should just let a tiny force of Wardens worry about it, maybe we would actually get somewhere.

To the first part, true enough.  But why they keep the consequences a secret are still understandable.  They would have far, far fewer people willing to join if they knew what it entailed, exactly.

 

As to incorporating Wardens into a nation's forces:  terrible idea.

 

The Wardens fight for Thedas.  And everyone in it, regardless of race, gender, social class.  You can be a mage, a Dalish, a casteless dwarf, a noble, all are welcome.  They don't have time for the petty politicking of the nations. Orlais' Grand Game, Tevinter's eugenics program, the Qunari's ceaseless war for Seheron.  One of the things that makes the Wardens so effective is they have one goal, and will accept anyone willing to help pursue it.  They are otherwise neutral in all matters.  Military, political, cultural.  If they were beholden to a nation, they could not stay out of these matters.  How long until the Orlesians send their Grey Wardens to put down some alienage uprising  to "put on a show of force"? Heck already, there is talk of the First Warden getting too involved in Anderfel politics.

 

Countries don't work together unless the threat is breathing down their necks.  Sometimes not even then (Hi, Loghain!)  So you need an organization that transcends national boundaries to deal with a threat to everyone.