There is no need for the joining ritual or the archdemon blood in order to become a GW,the joining ritual is just a more effective way to improve the potency of the darkspawn taint and turn a person into a GW,but the story of an accidental GW created simply by drinking darkspawn blood could be made and Gaider was clear on this long ago.
You probably need teh ritual to make the taint potent enough that you only need a vial of blood though. Archdemon blood and lyrium help with that.
To the first part, true enough. But why they keep the consequences a secret are still understandable. They would have far, far fewer people willing to join if they knew what it entailed, exactly.
As to incorporating Wardens into a nation's forces: terrible idea.
The Wardens fight for Thedas. And everyone in it, regardless of race, gender, social class. You can be a mage, a Dalish, a casteless dwarf, a noble, all are welcome. They don't have time for the petty politicking of the nations. Orlais' Grand Game, Tevinter's eugenics program, the Qunari's ceaseless war for Seheron. One of the things that makes the Wardens so effective is they have one goal, and will accept anyone willing to help pursue it. They are otherwise neutral in all matters. Military, political, cultural. If they were beholden to a nation, they could not stay out of these matters. How long until the Orlesians send their Grey Wardens to put down some alienage uprising to "put on a show of force"? Heck already, there is talk of the First Warden getting too involved in Anderfel politics.
Countries don't work together unless the threat is breathing down their necks. Sometimes not even then (Hi, Loghain!) So you need an organization that transcends national boundaries to deal with a threat to everyone.
Doesn't work. Nobody helped you in Origins because you were neutral Gray Wardens with treaties that said they were supposed to, not while they had their own problems to worry about. You had to get involved in all of them. You literally choose the King of Orzammar and possibly Feraldan. And in Last Flight it's very similar when the Wardens have to use their Griffons to save important political people during a blight in order to gain help. No single force can fight the Blight alone, and the Wardens staying neutral does not gain them allies.
What Thedas needs is an agreement that the Blight needs to be understood and countered. Countries don't work together easily no, but the Wardens don't do a better job at getting them to work together. All that happens now is every country pretends the Blight doesn't exist until it's breathing down their necks, at which point they try to use the Gray Wardens to save themselves. The solution isn't to keep doing that, that's been happening since the Wardens came into existence in the first Blight. We need a better solution. We need to understand the Blight, what causes it, and how to reverse it, and in order to do that, we need the best minds from every country working on it. Not an army that is really good at stabbing monsters and keeping any knowledge they find for themselves.
Doesn't work. Nobody helped you in Origins because you were neutral Gray Wardens with treaties that said they were supposed to, not while they had their own problems to worry about. You had to get involved in all of them. You literally choose the King of Orzammar and possibly Feraldan. And in Last Flight it's very similar when the Wardens have to use their Griffons to save important political people during a blight in order to gain help. No single force can fight the Blight alone, and the Wardens staying neutral does not gain them allies.
They didn't help you because they were paralyzed by other problems. Not because they couldn't be bothered. By staying neutral, tehy avoid these entanglements themselves. Look what happens when they do. Like Sofia Dryden.
What Thedas needs is an agreement that the Blight needs to be understood and countered. Countries don't work together easily no, but the Wardens don't do a better job at getting them to work together. All that happens now is every country pretends the Blight doesn't exist until it's breathing down their necks, at which point they try to use the Gray Wardens to save themselves. The solution isn't to keep doing that, that's been happening since the Wardens came into existence in the first Blight. We need a better solution. We need to understand the Blight, what causes it, and how to reverse it, and in order to do that, we need the best minds from every country working on it. Not an army that is really good at stabbing monsters and keeping any knowledge they find for themselves.
This is precisely what the Wardens do when not fighting Blights. And they accept help from all nations and all walks of life.
Doesn't work. Nobody helped you in Origins because you were neutral Gray Wardens with treaties that said they were supposed to, not while they had their own problems to worry about.
Countries don't work together easily no, but the Wardens don't do a better job at getting them to work together.
I would suggest exactly the opposite, based on DAO. The reason we were even given the chance to help the various factions, and thus unite them against the Darkspawn, is because the Grey Wardens are considered a respected neutral third party.
They didn't help you because they were paralyzed by other problems. Not because they couldn't be bothered. By staying neutral, tehy avoid these entanglements themselves. Look what happens when they do. Like Sofia Dryden.
This is precisely what the Wardens do when not fighting Blights. And they accept help from all nations and all walks of life.
Yeah, and you had to get involved in their issues. In what way is choosing the leaders of 2 countries staying politically neutral? Staying neutral does not get you allies.
The Wardens have got nowhere with researching the Blight. They don't accept help. They accept people joining the Wardens so more Wardens can research the Blight, and that's not enough. No one outside the Wardens is allowed to know anything about what we already know about stopping the Blight. The knowledge the Wardens horde could help other countries research the Blight as well, but the Wardens refuse.
Yeah, and you had to get involved in their issues. In what way is choosing the leaders of 2 countries staying politically neutral? Staying neutral does not get you allies.
The Wardens have got nowhere with researching the Blight. They don't accept help. They accept people joining the Wardens so more Wardens can research the Blight, and that's not enough. No one outside the Wardens is allowed to know anything about what we already know about stopping the Blight. The knowledge the Wardens horde could help other countries research the Blight as well, but the Wardens refuse.
They stayed politically neutral by not having a stake in what happens outside of fighting the the Blight (and it doesn't hurt that the Warden in this case is the Player CHaracter). If Orlais had their own order of Grey Wardens, how long until they get pulled into the Game? If Tevinter had Wardens, how long until they were used to fight the Qunari?
The Wardens do accept help. Remember Last Flight? Those Circle mages they shelted after the events of Asunder, whom they put to work researching stuff for them? None of them underwent the Joining even though they were willing. But the Wardens saw no point in risking their lives.
There is the idea that they must sever their ties with the world in order to do their job.
"You will guard them and they will hate you for it. Whenever there is not a Blight actively crawling over the surface, humanity will do its best to forget how much they need you. And that's good. We need to stand apart from them, even if they have to push us away to make us do it. That is the only way we can ever make the hard decisions.
Kristoff, former Commander of the Grey of Orlais"
And if you speak to Alistair in Ostagar he gives you an example of their "grey" morality, as they would even burn down a village to kill all darkspawn in it.
Now, here is the thing. They pretend that they don't need to be part of this world. That they don't need a mantain a good reputation.
Considering the kind of people they recruit for the job, staying away from people unless they are actually needed to stop darkspawn is the best way to maintain a good reputation.
They stayed politically neutral by not having a stake in what happens outside of fighting the the Blight (and it doesn't hurt that the Warden in this case is the Player CHaracter). If Orlais had their own order of Grey Wardens, how long until they get pulled into the Game? If Tevinter had Wardens, how long until they were used to fight the Qunari?
The Wardens do accept help. Remember Last Flight? Those Circle mages they shelted after the events of Asunder, whom they put to work researching stuff for them? None of them underwent the Joining even though they were willing. But the Wardens saw no point in risking their lives.
Staying politically neutral means not supporting any political party. You can choose to put your own boyfriend on the throne! And ignoring the player character, there are plenty of examples of Wardens not being neutral or staying out of other issues.
So what if Tevinter uses it's "wardens" to fight other people? They are no different from any other army. The shouldn't really be starting wars with anyone, but I don't see what makes having a force that's capable of fighting Darkspawn so special in this situation or different from any other force they have.
Yeah they had them read a bunch of old books with a vague "uhhhh look for anything suspicious" order. They didn't have them actually do any real research into the Blight - they couldn't - in order to find a way to fight the Blight they would need to know what already works. We know something about having the corruption inside you allows you to kill an archdemon - That's what they should be looking into. And allowing a few mages on the run to read some old books has nothing to do with uniting the world to find a real solution as quickly as possible, which is what they should be doing. Instead, one day the world will rot, because everyone sat back and waited and did nothing, and the Wardens hid every piece of information that could have possibly helped away from everybody else.
Thread officially hijacked by Abyss108.
You posted a topic on Gray Warden policies and I posted my opinion on them (that they are terrible, thus Wardens shouldn't exist), then replied to the people directly quoting me. Am I not allowed to post replies when people are specifically quoting me and debating the things I posted? 
I'll stay out of the thread from now on...
This is precisely what the Wardens do when not fighting Blights. And they accept help from all nations and all walks of life.
The Wardens do accept help. Remember Last Flight? Those Circle mages they shelted after the events of Asunder, whom they put to work researching stuff for them? None of them underwent the Joining even though they were willing. But the Wardens saw no point in risking their lives.
Didn't read the book,however did they told to those mages about the archdemons little secret? Because that what it really matters
Considering we still have Blights, that hasn't helped at all, and all those things can be done by countries, where the people will actually be held accountable instead of giving it to a bunch of criminals who have full reign to abuse whatever power they want in pursuit of "stopping the blight" and nothing to lose.
So, essentially... nothing would change, aside from the potential scope of abuse.
However i think that it is done for monopoly,to allow the wardens to have such a great power like their treaties,virtually they can go to Empress Celene and tell to her to join them....
No. They're free to ask, like anyone else, and be rejected.
Staying politically neutral means not supporting any political party. You can choose to put your own boyfriend on the throne! And ignoring the player character, there are plenty of examples of Wardens not being neutral or staying out of other issues.
Indeed there are. Staying neutral is an ideal which not all Wardens can achieve.
But when Wardens do dabble in politics it rarely turns out well.
So what if Tevinter uses it's "wardens" to fight other people? They are no different from any other army. The shouldn't really be starting wars with anyone, but I don't see what makes having a force that's capable of fighting Darkspawn so special in this situation or different from any other force they have.
A force that's fighting Qunari is a force that's not fighting Darkspawn.
Yeah they had them read a bunch of old books with a vague "uhhhh look for anything suspicious" order. They didn't have them actually do any real research into the Blight - they couldn't - in order to find a way to fight the Blight they would need to know what already works. We know something about having the corruption inside you allows you to kill an archdemon - That's what they should be looking into. And allowing a few mages on the run to read some old books has nothing to do with uniting the world to find a real solution as quickly as possible, which is what they should be doing. Instead, one day the world will rot, because everyone sat back and waited and did nothing, and the Wardens hid every piece of information that could have possibly helped away from everybody else.
Actually, they were instructed to find instances of Wardens vanishing outside of times of Blight. By implication, they were trying to figure out what happened to the Wardens in Orlais and Ferelden during the events of DAI.
And you may have noticed, People outside of the Wardens aren't much interested in darkspawn outside of Blights.
Well, the thread is about whether the Wardens should be closer to the rest of society or not. It isn't whether the Wardens should exist or not. The premise is that they will continue to exist, and the question is how they will exist. Abyss108 was a little off topic with the whole Wardens aren't needed thing, but he raised some fair points about political involvement.
I don't think they should be politically involved (for reasons others stated), but I think they should be close to the citizenry. As I posted earlier, I had the Vigil's Soldiers defend the farms, which causes the people to hold a deep respect for the Grey Wardens. This is what the Wardens should aim for. That way people like Clarel won't be able to corrupt the Wardens with messages of "a world that will never thank them", and Wardens like those who bought in to her BS will be more likely to remember their real duty. My Hero also saved Amaranthine. Again, the Wardens exist to protect the people from the darkspawn, not to kill darkspawn by any means necessary no matter how terrible the means.
Not really,if they do not bother to tell to others scholars what they know about archdemons then i'm afraid that nobody will be able to help.Since the first blight leaded by Dumat they made little if not even a progress to the comprehension of the Darkspawns and the old gods.and i pretty much agree 100% with abyss108
They do work with scholars.
Indeed there are. Staying neutral is an ideal which not all Wardens can achieve.
But when Wardens do dabble in politics it rarely turns out well.
A force that's fighting Qunari is a force that's not fighting Darkspawn.
Actually, they were instructed to find instances of Wardens vanishing outside of times of Blight. By implication, they were trying to figure out what happened to the Wardens in Orlais and Ferelden during the events of DAI.
And you may have noticed, People outside of the Wardens aren't much interested in darkspawn outside of Blights.
Exactly. Weisshaupt was smart enough to understand that if Southern Thedas Wardens were doing dark, it would be better to send Templar recruits to look for them and establish contact rather throwing more Wardens at the problem.
Thier counterproductive policy is that they are allowed to do whatever they want and they are left unsupervised what combined with fanaticism and magic lead them more than once becoming threat to society or world safety.
On mine bring down wardens and create new organisation that fights darkspawn in each country what will leave them supervised by authorities and being part of the country.People and authorities would trust them if part of the country, situations such as with Loghain kicking wardens out of the country wouldn't have a place, but it also made clear for authorities why organisation to fight darkspawn is important.
Tell people the secret to defeating archdemons and you'll have a serious recruitment problem.
You need someone to drink Darkspawn blood to strike the final blow. You don't need a foreign army for that.
The Wardens have got nowhere with researching the Blight.
This is the main reason why I spare the Architect. With his research on blood magic, he succesfully stopped darkspawn from hearing the Calling. Since the Calling measures how far the taint has spread in your body, it means the Architect has succesfully found a way to halt the taint from further spreading. It's one step toward the cure.
What if an old Warden underwent his ritual? A GW then would never need to die when his time had come. He'd be immune to the Calling.
Or he could go insane. The problem with both Avernus and the Architect is that they need to experiment on the living in order to actually come up with something. Now, I've never been quite clear on Seranni (Velanna's sister), but at least Utha is there voluntarily, and that's fine for her if she wants to do that. But I don't support kidnapping and experimenting on unwilling people.
That said, it IS refreshing to see someone else who spared the Architect. I've always found the companion remarks annoying in that scene, as the PC is the ONLY person there (er... well aside from Oghren, but I never bring him) who actually went through the recent Blight. Most of the arguments boil down to, "Look! It's a darkspawn, kill it!" or are simply made in a short-sighted desire for revenge. And let's not forget that you don't find out until later on that his failed ritual is what caused the Fifth Blight, so any arguments relating to that are meta knowledge.
The Wardens have got nowhere with researching the Blight.This is the main reason why I spare the Architect. With his research on blood magic, he succesfully stopped darkspawn from hearing the Calling. Since the Calling measures how far the taint has spread in your body, it means the Architect has succesfully found a way to halt the taint from further spreading. It's one step toward the cure.
That's not true. Whatever the Architect did, it has an effect on the darkspawn (apparent increased sentience) and seemed to give ghouls (i.e., the broodmother) some measure of their free will back. But that doesn't mean it did anything to the blight itself - all of the beings we meet are equally corrupted. And in fact, the one awakened broodmother we see is spawning even more awful abominations - the Children - which are unlike any darkspawn ever registered before. So, if anything, the Architect might well have made the blight worse.
The Architect doesn't talk about stopping the blight (the disease, lower case), he talks of ending Blights (the scourge of darkspawn amassing around an Archdemon, upper case). His reasoning is that the Blights are just as devastating for his own kind as they are for humanity.
In The Calling, he says that his ultimate plan is to have every living being infected with the blight, and then those hybrid creatures would use their Call to find the Old Gods and destroy them before the actual darkspawn can wake them. BUT by DAA his plans have apparently changed, since he doesn't mention that, or at least there isn't enough space or context for a full explanation. As I recall, it's pretty brief in the game itself. He instead says that he wants to use Grey Warden blood to awaken his darkspawn brethren, which is what he's been slowly doing all this time.
I'm not sure which plan is more viable, to be honest (note that I say "more viable," not "best"). If every living being is infected with the blight, then they don't have to worry about it. However, a significant chunk of the population would die, just as Warden recruits die in the Joining. And wouldn't that ultimately mean the end for humanity if they can't reproduce? On the other hand, trying to do his own Joining on all of the darkspawn seems like a fool's errand, not only because of how many darkspawn there are -- in The Calling he wants to use the Circles to spread the taint around human populations -- but because there is the risk that using it on them will drive them insane, as it did the Mother; insane sentient darkspawn are dangerous darkspawn.
The Architect doesn't talk about stopping the blight (the disease, lower case), he talks of ending Blights (the scourge of darkspawn amassing around an Archdemon, upper case). His reasoning is that the Blights are just as devastating for his own kind as they are for humanity.
In The Calling, he says that his ultimate plan is to have every living being infected with the blight, and then those hybrid creatures would use their Call to find the Old Gods and destroy them before the actual darkspawn can wake them. BUT by DAA his plans have apparently changed, since he doesn't mention that, or at least there isn't enough space or context for a full explanation. As I recall, it's pretty brief in the game itself. He instead says that he wants to use Grey Warden blood to awaken his darkspawn brethren, which is what he's been slowly doing all this time.
I'm not sure which plan is more viable, to be honest (note that I say "more viable," not "best"). If every living being is infected with the blight, then they don't have to worry about it. However, a significant chunk of the population would die, just as Warden recruits die in the Joining. And wouldn't that ultimately mean the end for humanity if they can't reproduce? On the other hand, trying to do his own Joining on all of the darkspawn seems like a fool's errand, not only because of how many darkspawn there are -- in The Calling he wants to use the Circles to spread the taint around human populations -- but because there is the risk that using it on them will drive them insane, as it did the Mother; insane sentient darkspawn are dangerous darkspawn.
There are a number of issues. From a meta-perspective, with all we know about DA, the Calling is good. For the moment, it keeps darkspawn from over-running the surface immediately. The dwarves are close to being exterminated wholesale thanks to the endless darkspawn onslaught. They face a never-ending blight. Without the Calling, that's the future of all life on Thedas. And the darkspawm seem to have a far less harmful effect in the deep roads - above ground, the poison the land and the sky in a way they seem not to poison the cavernous deep roads (albeit they do mutate the life there as well).
The non-darkspawn races have a very, very different calculus from the darkspawn. An eternal calling with archdemons just out of reach is the best case scenario at the moment for Thedas. Sapient - self-aware, critical thinking - darkspawn are the absolute worst. That's an eternal blight in the making, except that there's no way to stop it.
"Sane" darkspawn are just as dangerous. The Architect does not say his followers are "insane". But the evil they perpetrated is extensive. The Architect his darkspawn made their own decision to sack and massacre Vigil. That makes them even more evil. It was his darkspawn that tortured Velanna - they exterminated her people and blamed it on the humans, to then have her massacre them. The Messenger goes around spreading the blight, either killing people outright by infecting them or turning them into ghouls - and we know what happens to the men and (especially) women who are made into them.
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