107 réponses à ce sujet

[Helmetto]

There is the idea that they must sever their ties with the world in order to do their job.

"You will guard them and they will hate you for it. Whenever there is not a Blight actively crawling over the surface, humanity will do its best to forget how much they need you. And that's good. We need to stand apart from them, even if they have to push us away to make us do it. That is the only way we can ever make the hard decisions.

Kristoff, former Commander of the Grey of Orlais"

And if you speak to Alistair in Ostagar he gives you an example of their "grey" morality, as they would even burn down a village to kill all darkspawn in it.

Now, here is the thing. They pretend that they don't need to be part of this world. That they don't need a mantain a good reputation. And yet, ending a Blight often requires gathering support and earning favors.

It was the case with Garahel, as it was with the Hero of Ferelden later on. And make no mistake: Even if their numbers in Ferelden hadn't been "too few" as Duncan mentioned and the Ostagar tragedy never happened, it still would've been necessary to get outside help. The Grey Wardens cannot defeat the bulk of the horde on their own.

And guess what, people may be more or less inclined to help depending on how they feel about you.

 

Well, first off, if Loghain hadn't betrayed his king, then we wouldn't have needed to gather all the dwarves/mages/elves and Arl Eamon in the first place and 'earn favors'. It was Loghain doing so that forced the Wardens to play with politics, because he dragged their name through the mud and implied that they were crying wolf about the Blight and were grubby king murderers.

 

If Loghain hadn't been insisting that there wasn't a Blight and offered to assist the Wardens after killing the king, then I imagine that the Wardens would've just shrugged and said, "That works for me." Regardless of whether or not Duncan/Alistair/Hero Warden liked it. All actions against Loghain were a direct result of HIM throwing stones at THEM while they were trying to do their job.

 

If everybody believes that you're only around to do one job, one duty, then they will leave you alone and to your devices. As soon as you get into politics, people are going to start digging into your organization, asking questions, etc. I doubt they're going to get a lot of likes if people found out about their history with blood magic, among other things.

[TK514]

 

The Wardens have got nowhere with researching the Blight. 

 

This is the main reason why I spare the Architect. With his research on blood magic, he succesfully stopped darkspawn from hearing the Calling. Since the Calling measures how far the taint has spread in your body, it means the Architect has succesfully found a way to halt the taint from further spreading. It's one step toward the cure.

 

 

The Calling is a symptom of the Taint, not the cause.  It's no different than someone with a cold treating a runny nose.  They may not be as miserable, but they're still sick.

[Aren]

 

 

 

 

No. They're free to ask, like anyone else, and be rejected. 

Nobody can reject their right of conscription

That's not true. Whatever the Architect did, it has an effect on the darkspawn (apparent increased sentience) and seemed to give ghouls (i.e., the broodmother) some measure of their free will back. But that doesn't mean it did anything to the blight itself - all of the beings we meet are equally corrupted. And in fact, the one awakened broodmother we see is spawning even more awful abominations - the Children - which are unlike any darkspawn ever registered before. So, if anything, the Architect might well have made the blight worse. 

Yes but at least the Architect did something,the GW are around since the time of the first archdemon Dumat and their progress are laughable,sorry but they had a long period of time to do their work better.

[TobiTobsen]

 

Nobody can reject their right of conscription

 

Until one country decides that they absolutely can.

 

The right of conscription only works because the kingdoms of Thedas agree that it should work. The second the Wardens overstrain the goodwill of somebody powerful by conscripting left, right and center they'll have a major problem. Duncan explicitly says so.

[Illegitimus]

 

Nobody can reject their right of conscription

 

In theory.  In actuality the Grey Wardens have no way of enforcing the right of conscription without the cooperation of national authorities.  

[helpthisguyplease]

Well look at it from this point the joining is how to put it very deadly one 1 survives or more hell if I know for sure. But here is the thing forcing regular soldiers to drink magical darkspawn blood knowing that most likely they will die its not a good policy and could get you very killed. 

But if you have a order that is legendary that its famous and you know considered great that make people of their own will drink poison then well you reduce the risk of revolts or retribution. After all they did it out of their own will mostly so there is not that much resentment that can result in a sword cutting your head.

[Iakus]

Well, first off, if Loghain hadn't betrayed his king, then we wouldn't have needed to gather all the dwarves/mages/elves and Arl Eamon in the first place and 'earn favors'. It was Loghain doing so that forced the Wardens to play with politics, because he dragged their name through the mud and implied that they were crying wolf about the Blight and were grubby king murderers.

 

If Loghain hadn't been insisting that there wasn't a Blight and offered to assist the Wardens after killing the king, then I imagine that the Wardens would've just shrugged and said, "That works for me." Regardless of whether or not Duncan/Alistair/Hero Warden liked it. All actions against Loghain were a direct result of HIM throwing stones at THEM while they were trying to do their job.

 

If everybody believes that you're only around to do one job, one duty, then they will leave you alone and to your devices. As soon as you get into politics, people are going to start digging into your organization, asking questions, etc. I doubt they're going to get a lot of likes if people found out about their history with blood magic, among other things.

Yup.  If their forces weren't needed to stop the Blight, the Wardens would have sat out all these problems.  Including the Landsmeet

[ThePhoenixKing]

You say this like the countries of Thedas would actually keep and maintain a fighting force that they would only need every few hundred years or so.

 

Obviously, you need the Grey Wardens at all times, but kingdoms are ignorant, and are only interested in immediate threats and consolidating their own power, so they would axe their Grey Warden units, training, and funding pretty quick after everything returned to normal post-blight. And the next time a blight rolled around, they would be insufficiently prepared for such an event.

 

With something as massive and as dangerous as darkspawn and the blight, you need an organisation solely dedicated to it, unimpeded by the constraints of outside powers that would totally under-utilise and completely mismanage their efforts.

 

Edit: Also, it took almost all of Ferelden being engulfed by darkspawn and the threat of genocide to get the people to finally stand against the darkspawn because they're terrified of these monsters. Regular armies without experience fighting darkspawn just wouldn't have the morale and courage it takes to fight darkspawn.

 

Exactly. The threat of the darkspawn is so constant and unpredictable that having ad-hoc Wardens simply doesn't cut it. It's like a fire department: would you rather have a full-time force of dedicated, trained and experienced professionals who are sworn to help you in your time of need, or a thrown-together collection of people who might not know what they're doing, might not be able to respond quickly enough, and might not even come to your aid if they don't personally like you?

 

To the first part, true enough.  But why they keep the consequences a secret are still understandable.  They would have far, far fewer people willing to join if they knew what it entailed, exactly.

 

As to incorporating Wardens into a nation's forces:  terrible idea.

 

The Wardens fight for Thedas.  And everyone in it, regardless of race, gender, social class.  You can be a mage, a Dalish, a casteless dwarf, a noble, all are welcome.  They don't have time for the petty politicking of the nations. Orlais' Grand Game, Tevinter's eugenics program, the Qunari's ceaseless war for Seheron.  One of the things that makes the Wardens so effective is they have one goal, and will accept anyone willing to help pursue it.  They are otherwise neutral in all matters.  Military, political, cultural.  If they were beholden to a nation, they could not stay out of these matters.  How long until the Orlesians send their Grey Wardens to put down some alienage uprising  to "put on a show of force"? Heck already, there is talk of the First Warden getting too involved in Anderfel politics.

 

Countries don't work together unless the threat is breathing down their necks.  Sometimes not even then (Hi, Loghain!)  So you need an organization that transcends national boundaries to deal with a threat to everyone.

 

Another good point. Fighting the darkspawn simply isn't a priority for the surface nations of Thedas; they don't care about the threat the Blight poses until it's hammering on their door, and sometimes not even then. Moreover, for all the condemnations of the Wardens for their excesses, it's important to remember that the rest of Thedas has done a lot worse for a lot longer for a lot less justifiable reasons. They're not murdering each other over points of fashion (the Orlesian nobility), exploiting their authority to run rape camps (Templars) or waging petty wars for the sake of meager territorial gains (Marcher nobility).

 

I would suggest exactly the opposite, based on DAO.  The reason we were even given the chance to help the various factions, and thus unite them against the Darkspawn, is because the Grey Wardens are considered a respected neutral third party.

 

Very true.

 

Until one country decides that they absolutely can.

 

The right of conscription only works because the kingdoms of Thedas agree that it should work. The second the Wardens overstrain the goodwill of somebody powerful by conscripting left, right and center they'll have a major problem. Duncan explicitly says so.

 

Absolutely true. Really, the Right of Conscription is less a means to fill the Order's ranks than it is to ensure they don't lose particularly talented recruits to either organizations (such as the Templars in Alistair's case) or to imprisonment/execution (City Elf, Dwarf Commoner).

[ModernAcademic]

The Calling is a symptom of the Taint, not the cause.  It's no different than someone with a cold treating a runny nose.  They may not be as miserable, but they're still sick.

 

Yes, that's my point. The cure hasn't been found. But a darkspawn has actually done the impossible: found a way to stop the taint from spreading.

[ModernAcademic]

If a darkspawn is now immune to the Calling, then anything exposed to the Architect's ritual will become immune, too. Which means he accidentally discovered something that can act as a counteragent. It doesn't cure, but it definitely destroyed something that was part of the taint: the control it exerts over your mind.

I'd say his research has some value and is one more step toward a cure in the future. And yet, some players prefer to kill him in their playthrough. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

If a darkspawn is now immune to the Calling, then anything exposed to the Architect's ritual will become immune, too. Which means he accidentally discovered something that can act as a counteragent. It doesn't cure, but it definitely destroyed something that was part of the taint: the control it exerts over your mind.

I'd say his research has some value and is one more step toward a cure in the future. And yet, some players prefer to kill him in their playthrough. 

Because he and awakened darkspawn are threat to every living thing except darkspawn? You won't need cure if you are dead.

[ModernAcademic]

The Blight will do the same to you, unless a cure is found.

Regarding the darkspawn, the ones that are awakened will likely becomes the Architect's disciples and remain in the Deep Roads, as stated in the epilogue of Awakening.

[TheKomandorShepard]

The Blight will do the same to you, unless a cure is found.

Regarding the darkspawn, the ones that are awakened will likely becomes the Architect's disciples and remain in the Deep Roads, as stated in the epilogue of Awakening.

 

Blights can be stopped with archdemon death because without it darkspawn are disorganized. Architect plan pretty much eliminates only mean to stop darkspawn and their weakness.That is without even going into disasters Architect experiments and doings can cause. Guy already is responsible for creation of blights , starting blight and The Mother   

 

For now , doesn't mean it will stay like this forever.

[Typhrus]

It should also be noted that the epilogues aren't the be all end all of what happens. So as much as the founding of the Silver Order is cool or whatever the Architect and the awakened might be doing, doesn't necessarily mean that actually happens. This comes from a player who typically keeps the Architect alive because I found him an interesting character and we did seem to have some sort of agreement for the time being. I have to wonder how 'final' the epilogue slides are in the base game of Inquisition and later Trespasser, knowing the previous response from Gaider (and yes I know he is no longer on the DA team), I don't hold much hope that things have changed.

[Vigilance97]

Blights can be stopped with archdemon death because without it darkspawn are disorganized. Architect plan pretty much eliminates only mean to stop darkspawn and their weakness.

The thing is, this will probably happen anyway. It's strongly implied that once the last Old God is dead, all darkspawn will be freed from the Calling and awaken.

[helpthisguyplease]

The thing is, this will probably happen anyway. It's strongly implied that once the last Old God is dead, all darkspawn will be freed from the Calling and awaken.

Well there 2 more blights and considering the amount of casualties they suffer maybe there will not be enough Darkspawn to be a real threat. Also because they will be awaken will that not mean that they will do like humans do create nations that fight each other. Meaning being divided?

[TheKomandorShepard]

The thing is, this will probably happen anyway. It's strongly implied that once the last Old God is dead, all darkspawn will be freed from the Calling and awaken.

We don't know that , but even if that is in case better later than sooner in this case

[TK514]

The Calling is a symptom of the Taint, not the cause.  It's no different than someone with a cold treating a runny nose.  They may not be as miserable, but they're still sick.

 

Yes, that's my point. The cure hasn't been found. But a darkspawn has actually done the impossible: found a way to stop the taint from spreading.

But it doesn't stop the Taint from spreading.  You've been poisoned.  Muting the Calling doesn't make you less poisoned, or do anything to stop the spread of that poison, it just removes one of the signs you're dying.

[In Exile]

The Blight will do the same to you, unless a cure is found.

Regarding the darkspawn, the ones that are awakened will likely becomes the Architect's disciples and remain in the Deep Roads, as stated in the epilogue of Awakening.

Except that - if you believe him - he has absolutely no control over them and no interest in stopping them from engaging in wanton slaughter. This is his justification for Vigil, which is clearly a raid to capture some GWs (and likely the HOF). Which, of course, he then immediately attempts to capture/kill again. 

[Aren]

Blights can be stopped with archdemon death because without it darkspawn are disorganized. Architect plan pretty much eliminates only mean to stop darkspawn and their weakness.That is without even going into disasters Architect experiments and doings can cause. Guy already is responsible for creation of blights , starting blight and The Mother

For now , doesn't mean it will stay like this forever.

Corypheus can defeat alone an entire army of darkspawns with his ability.

[Aren]

But it doesn't stop the Taint from spreading. You've been poisoned. Muting the Calling doesn't make you less poisoned, or do anything to stop the spread of that poison, it just removes one of the signs you're dying.

Avernus was able to remove the toxic part of the taint and use it to live longer
His problem was only the calling.

The thing is, this will probably happen anyway. It's strongly implied that once the last Old God is dead, all darkspawn will be freed from the Calling and awaken.

Strongly implied? Where?
This is only a speculation and nobody know the nature of the calling as it was copied from both the Nightmare demon and Corypheus.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Corypheus can defeat alone an entire army of darkspawns with his ability.

Corypheus couldn't defeat even Inquisition because of his stupidity, but i don't get what Corypheus have to do with that.  

[Aren]

Corypheus couldn't defeat even Inquisition because of his stupidity, but i don't get what Corypheus have to do with that.

Corypheus body jump ability works on every tainted creature it was just an example to say that whoever master his ability can defeat alone a blight.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Corypheus body jump ability works on every tainted creature it was just an example to say that whoever master his ability can defeat alone a blight.

Actually we don't know if it works on every tained creature as we saw him only possessing grey wardens, though i would assume it does.All darkspawn would have to do is kill his dragon, and Corypheus is gone .Still don't see what Corypheus has to do with that.

[Aren]

Actually we don't know if it works on every tained creature as we saw him only possessing grey wardens, though i would assume it does.All darkspawn would have to do is kill his dragon, and Corypheus is gone .Still don't see what Corypheus has to do with that.

The dragon was something that he created on his own, without the dragon Corypheus is completly immortal like he was in Legacy.
I used Corypheus as an example to mention his ability which is something that make all darkspawns weak against it.