200 réponses à ce sujet

[Donk]

Oops.. I posted that in the wrong thread. Hahahahahaha!!!

[10K]

No **** Sherlock

okay what have I done to cause you anger? And may I possibly fix it for you?

[Donk]

okay what have I done to cause you anger? And may I possibly fix it for you?

Nah you're good mate I posted it in the wrong thread I don't know how that happened but anyway.

And I wasn't angry. I was just being a d-bag. My apologies

[10K]

Nah you're good mate I posted it in the wrong thread I don't know how that happened but anyway.
And I wasn't angry. I was just being a d-bag. My apologies

No problem, it happens :-)

[Ink is my sin]

I've also witnessed these"nova guards" whom constantly spam nova to exploit the nova's animation, resulting in them not taken damage at all. Exploiting a flaw isn't skill.

OMG I remember when everyone figured this out. Every gold and silver match I played had nothing but screaming vanguards lol.

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=pm252bp-jVA
Those days were so annoying.

[Spectr61]

Well ME2 actually had decent weapon balance, and had clearly defined roles for each category. ME1's balance wasn't too bad, except on the low end. The top AR does better DPS than the best pistol except under the weapon talent. ME3's weapon balance is pretty poor overall.Weapons carried or equipped really shouldn't have anything to do with power cooldowns. That paradigm exacerbated the difficulty balancing many weapons, and is a large part of why ME3 balance is poor.Attack speed is a little different in DAI compared to reload canceling. It is closer to if you could tap sprint in ME and get a higher rate of fire. I don't know why the devs didn't say anything. Maybe they wanted to patch that out but couldn't figure out a decent way to do it that didn't break other things.

The mechanics in terms of what buttons to push are slightly different between reload cancelling and attack animation cancelling, but the result is the same, increasing DPS.

That's why I posted it here, both exploits abrogate the penalties associated with different weapons, increasing DPS.

Explicitly allowed in ME, not addressed either way in DA.

I bet you are right though, the dev's probably aimed to somehow not allow it in DAI, they just had a shite-load of bigger thing to fix, and ran out of time.

My point is; if there are penalties associated with different weapons, I.e weight, firing rate, attack speed, etc, and an exploit makes these penalties either less in severity or even inconsequential, why is deemed copacetic in either?

If the design supposedly takes such things into account, wouldn't the dev's come out and state that? Instead we get ambiguous answers (ME), or none, DAI.

Seems to me they could easily be more clear. And consistent.

[10K]

OMG I remember when everyone figured this out. Every gold and silver match I played had nothing but screaming vanguards lol.
https://m.youtube.co...h?v=pm252bp-jVA
Those days were so annoying.

Yeah they were very annoying, I actually stopped playing human Vanguard for awhile because everyone would do this little trick. I stopped playing this game a year or so ago. This vid brings back old memories :'(

[Zekka]

that cooldown stuff has to go. I don't know how Mass Effect would work without classes seeing as how there are biotics and tech experts.

[Gamemako]

As I said, engineers and adepts wouldn't need heavy fire power because they'd be able to rely solely on their abilities. Rather pistols are underpowered or not is a moot point.

Once again, that makes absolutely no sense. I am an engineer. I have better math and technical skills than the average person. I also happen to be able to shoot a rifle at things and hit them. I am quite a bit better at hitting things with rifles than I am at hitting things with handguns. This is not a zero sum game where I have to handicap myself in inane ways to make up for my ability to excel in another area. I can still rely on my engineering skills without having to excise the part of my brain that controls my arms. It still makes absolutely no sense for me ever to run out carrying an inferior weapon when could use a better weapon.

If the Soldier class is not fun or interesting to play, that is not the problem of better designed classes. Soldier needs to have its own abilities which make it a fun and interesting class to play, rather than sending the Handicapper General's agents after everyone else to compensate for one class's ineptitude.
 

First I'd like to say melee bonus and melee is not ineffective. Melee actually creates a small stagger, which bridge that gap of the 7-8.5 second of CD that charge does have. No matter what you say, this CD is there and it's where the the Vanguard is most vunarable. There's so way to by pass it.

SP time dilation does not affect cooldown timers. As a result, you can get the Charge cooldown shorter than the animation length. In MP, gods help you if you're using manguard like that, though-- that's what Half blast and roll cancels are for. Additionally, if there is a period of vulnerability, then taking a power-slowing ability is going to do worse to you by extending it where you should be getting back to invul so that you don't get mowed down -- 3 rounds while vulnerable is all it takes to kill you, and you'd be lucky if you got enough DR to extend that to 4. Also, Charge's base cooldown is 10 seconds. Total cooldown is 1 / (1 + cooldown bonuses). With 4 stacks of Nova CD boost and cooldown armor slots with the intel bonuses, you get a 2-second Charge cooldown.

that cooldown stuff has to go. I don't know how Mass Effect would work without classes seeing as how there are biotics and tech experts.

Nobody said every person who can become a biotic has to focus on that. It's quite easy to handle that problem here, unlike in Dragon Age where mages are persecuted.

[10K]

that cooldown stuff has to go. I don't know how Mass Effect would work without classes seeing as how there are biotics and tech experts.

This is exactly what I think should happen, especially with engineers and adepts

[countofhell]

Classes are pointless if late game allow you to develop your character in any way you wan't. In early game however each class can give individual boost for the gameplay.

[10K]

SP time dilation does not affect cooldown timers. As a result, you can get the Charge cooldown shorter than the animation length. In MP, gods help you if you're using manguard like that, though-- that's what Half blast and roll cancels are for. Additionally, if there is a period of vulnerability, then taking a power-slowing ability is going to do worse to you by extending it where you should be getting back to invul so that you don't get mowed down -- 3 rounds while vulnerable is all it takes to kill you, and you'd be lucky if you got enough DR to extend that to 4. Also, Charge's base cooldown is 10 seconds. Total cooldown is 1 / (1 + cooldown bonuses). With 4 stacks of Nova CD boost and cooldown armor slots with the intel bonuses, you get a 2-second Charge cooldown.

Okay I just want to check this math. I'm assuming you pick half blast nova instad of heavy nova. If so where is the 4 stacks of nova CD boost coming from, given you only get CD bonus for heavy nova. But if you actually spec for heavy, even then I doubt you'd be able to pull off 4 heavy novas with in 15s to stack them all. Given heavy nova only grants that bonus for 15s. Charge grants 25% recharge for itself at rank 3 I think. 25% of 10 is about 7.5, factoring in heavy nova's 15s 25% bonus, I get around 5.5 to 5s for charge CD. Even with intel and armor; where are you gettin 2s from?

[ZipZap2000]

I get the idea of restrictions, but honestly they kind of annoy me. I like the flexibility of playing around with things a little. For example - Sniper Vanguard.

I believe I had an entire play through as a vanguard carrying 5 weapons. I like the snipe charge shotty combo.

Cooldowns worked the best so far out of all three games.

[Ahriman]

I still don't understand why Vanguard should use shotguns. Shotguns are for close-range combat, but Vanguards are usually in fist-range combat. And when they are not they'd need some more ranged weapon instead.

Personally I'd like to specialize in weapon which fits my playstyle.

[MichaelN7]

I still don't understand why Vanguard should use shotguns. Shotguns are for close-range combat, but Vanguards are usually in fist-range combat. And when they are not they'd need some more ranged weapon instead.

Personally I'd like to specialize in weapon which fits my playstyle.

Taking a shotgun blast at "close range" is painful, it's possible to survive (with a lot of luck), but you would not be able to simply walk it off.

Taking a shotgun blast at "point-blank range" is fatal.  Shotguns get their power from the spread, i.e. launching a bunch of metal at high velocity all over the place in a spread.

Each piece of metal rips through the target, so imagine taking that same blast of metal all in one spot.

You're basically causing an explosion of sub-sonic shrapnel directly in the middle of a target, because the spread happens when the shrapnel is now INSIDE the target.  (eww...)

 

That said, real-life shotguns actually have some decent range.  The reason they're toned down in a game and made into "short-range" shotguns is for balance.  If shotguns in a game were truly like real-life shotguns, they would be so ridiculously over-powered that almost no other weapons would be used.

 

Assault rifles may have a faster firing rate, but they also don't require as much training, since the gun itself does most of the work.  There are always exceptions and there is no compensating for stupidity, but you generally just need to know which end of the clip goes where and how.  With a shotgun there is a lot more dexterity involved, even if it's an automatic shotgun, since the shells are larger and with an automatic the clip is generally rather large.  Recoil is generally less in an assault rifle, since the rounds exiting the barrel happens one at a time; very rapidly, but still one at a time.

Whereas with a shotgun it happens all at once, so you get all that kickback and recoil all in one blast, which can be very painful and even cause injury if you're untrained.

In most games with shooting mechanics, you're character is an "instant expert" of sorts, I mean, Gordon Freeman is a scientist, yet somehow he knows how to reload a 9mm, a submachine gun, an alien rifle, and an RPG.  The reason for that is really just "fun factor".

 

All in all, it's easier to simply "tone down" the shotgun's effective range for game balance than it is to try to implement the myriad techniques and know-how that comes with effective use of a shotgun in combat.

 

For your playstyle, perhaps a melee weapon?  In Mass Effect 3, there is a shotgun upgrade called Shotgun Smart Choke, what it does is tighten the pellet spread, so shotguns can hit more accurately at longer ranges; it's one of my go-to upgrades for my shotguns.

[Vanilka]

To be honest, I'm glad that the class restrictions are gone because it allows me to customise my character however I want it in that department. It's up to me how I want to equip my character and I like that. I still love playing a Soldier because I think Soldier's strengths are in more than just the huge arsenal they can use. In addition to that, I have a weird fixation with assault rifles, so I'm quite happy I can just go and choose them with whatever class now if I wish. I can make a particular weapon part of my character's personality and tweak their fighting style accordingly.

 

The weapon restrictions have always seemed very artificial to me. Well, I suppose I understand them from the gameplay perspective. It's the game telling me, "You already have biotics, you hog, stop trying to be so OP." But otherwise it seems just forced to me.

 

All that said, I wouldn't mind if the class restrictions returned. I find them unnecessarily limiting myself, but I've never had trouble working with them, either.

[Ahriman]

For your playstyle, perhaps a melee weapon?  In Mass Effect 3, there is a shotgun upgrade called Shotgun Smart Choke, what it does is tighten the pellet spread, so shotguns can hit more accurately at longer ranges; it's one of my go-to upgrades for my shotguns.

Uhm, I meant that I don't need weapon after charge at all, thanks to improved melee, but I need some decent range weapon when Charge is too risky.

[Gamemako]

Okay I just want to check this math. I'm assuming you pick half blast nova instad of heavy nova. If so where is the 4 stacks of nova CD boost coming from, given you only get CD bonus for heavy nova. But if you actually spec for heavy, even then I doubt you'd be able to pull off 4 heavy novas with in 15s to stack them all. Given heavy nova only grants that bonus for 15s. Charge grants 25% recharge for itself at rank 3 I think. 25% of 10 is about 7.5, factoring in heavy nova's 15s 25% bonus, I get around 5.5 to 5s for charge CD. Even with intel and armor; where are you gettin 2s from?

Half Blast is something you do in MP. I don't think it's likely that we'll be able to build a complete kit for multiplayer regardless, unless BioWare changes their entire thinking on multiplayer and decides to turn you into one faceless soldier instead of a lore-based operative. Even if you don't have a class for multiplayer, you have a character or species archetype guiding BioWare's skill selection for that character.

As for Charge, it's 200% weapon weight min, 25% rank 2, 50% armor bonuses, 25% intel bonuses, 100% for 4 stacks of 25% Nova = -400% total cooldown recharge. 10 / (1 + 4) = 2. Again, you don't actually need nearly 4 full stacks to get under the animation time -- IIRC, you're under animation duration if you have 1 stack, and that can be primed as Nova before your first charge, with full invul in the process.

[Thibax]

So go through the resources-intensive process of making and balancing 6 classes just for lazy people, while also providing the unbalanced option for everyone else? What is the point? And limiting the number of skills wouldn't make this free-for-all class as balanced as actual classes. If I had 10 power slots and could choose any powers I wanted I could break the game and be nigh-invincible 3 times over. Now personally I'm not that concerned with strictly balancing a single-player game, but BioWare clearly is. If I could take all of the best Biotic powers, all of the best Tech powers, and all of the best Soldier powers I would be playing in God Mode.

 

 

Killroy, so the real problem is the player, not the game.

And it won't be an unbalanced option, since to have some skills, we need to level up and have some other skills. Example: to have Singularity,  you need to have Warp too. So you will use 2 slots here of 10. It's just a way to customize a class for you. If you are a class and want to have a power from another.

If someone want to be God, this someone will intend to be in a game with or without classes.

It's up to the player decide. We can have the tools, but if we will use them, it's another story. It's not mandatory.

 

In real life, you can be an engineer and have some cooking skills too, isn't? 

[Killroy]

Killroy, so the real problem is the player, not the game.
And it won't be an unbalanced option, since to have some skills, we need to level up and have some other skills. Example: to have Singularity,  you need to have Warp too. So you will use 2 slots here of 10. It's just a way to customize a class for you. If you are a class and want to have a power from another.
If someone want to be God, this someone will intend to be in a game with or without classes.
It's up to the player decide. We can have the tools, but if we will use them, it's another story. It's not mandatory.
 
In real life, you can be an engineer and have some cooking skills too, isn't? 

You're ignoring logic. Allowing players to make these God-Mode builds defeats the purpose of balancing the game. Classes become pointless and combat/level design becomes pointless. It essentially undermines the work of the devs for no legitimate reason. If you want to use whatever powers you want then use mods. Don't expect the devs to undercut their own work.

[Gamemako]

You're ignoring logic. Allowing players to make these God-Mode builds defeats the purpose of balancing the game. Classes become pointless and combat/level design becomes pointless. It essentially undermines the work of the devs for no legitimate reason.

That simply is not the case. Taking any ability offers the opportunity cost of missing out on another ability. Many games are built this way. Since I already used KoA:R twice, how about a different way of handling the problem: the MMO ArcheAge lets any player access any ability. However, you can only pick from 3 of the 10 skillsets at any time (combinations are each given monikers as the game's 120 "classes"), and then you have a limited number of skill points for both skills and passive abilities. No player is god mode, despite that any player can access any skill.

The problem with freeform systems is not magically becoming unstoppable. The problem is that it is difficult to avoid a small number of very specific builds (nearly always the purest, most specialized ones) from overperforming. Nerfs to one ability affect every other use of that ability, so nerfing the overperformer also nerfs the ones who are not as good. Isolated classes are easier to balance, but neither system is going to produce "godmode" classes without grave errors that affect either.

[Killroy]

That simply is not the case. Taking any ability offers the opportunity cost of missing out on another ability. Many games are built this way. Since I already used KoA:R twice, how about a different way of handling the problem: the MMO ArcheAge lets any player access any ability. However, you can only pick from 3 of the 10 skillsets at any time (combinations are each given monikers as the game's 120 "classes"), and then you have a limited number of skill points for both skills and passive abilities. No player is god mode, despite that any player can access any skill.

The problem with freeform systems is not magically becoming unstoppable. The problem is that it is difficult to avoid a small number of very specific builds (nearly always the purest, most specialized ones) from overperforming. Nerfs to one ability affect every other use of that ability, so nerfing the overperformer also nerfs the ones who are not as good. Isolated classes are easier to balance, but neither system is going to produce "godmode" classes without grave errors that affect either.

"Missing out" on other powers is not a balance to letting you choose any power set you want. There are any number of power combinations that make the most broken builds of ME3 SP and MP look like underpowered jenk.

[AlanC9]

You're not actually selling that system, Gamemako. How would you address that balance problem?

[Gamemako]

"Missing out" on other powers is not a balance to letting you choose any power set you want. There are any number of power combinations that make the most broken builds of ME3 SP and MP look like underpowered jenk.

Oh, I can think of a few combinations which would actually be overpowered. Tech Armor + Barrier + Fortification + Defense Matrix would actually be overpowered. However, you wouldn't even design these abilities at all if you were creating a system where players could select any ability they wanted. There would be absolutely no need for overlapping abilities of that sort if everyone could access Tech Armor out the gate. You would just create one Tech Armor or Barrier and call it a day.

You're not actually selling that system, Gamemako. How would you address that balance problem?

Don't get me wrong; I'm not trying to sell it. If I were a combat systems designer for BioWare, I wouldn't build the system that way myself. I'm just trying to stop people from applying lazy thinking and making shoddy assumptions about game systems design.

As for how you address the problem, you do so in several ways. Both KoA:R and ArcheAge use investment requirements. KoA:R locks you out of abilities if you don't specialize sufficiently. KoA:R also gave unique stat bonuses depending on how you invested your points; these took the form of Destiny cards. ArcheAge has a passive investment system where the most potent passive effects require at least 10 points already invested in the skillset to acquire. These can be critical, build-changing bonuses; many popular builds are entirely based around one called Zeal, which dramatically boosts magic critical rate and damage. You may also have abilities which have strong combos to help get around natural synergy between certain attack types. If you have overpowered melee focused build, you might boost the alternative hybrid class by adding combos which affect either raw numbers or the mechanics of the fight (e.g. CC effects that open up new opportunities). It's certainly not an insurmountable problem, but it does take a lot of time to get right.

[KaiserShep]

I get the idea of restrictions, but honestly they kind of annoy me. I like the flexibility of playing around with things a little. For example - Sniper Vanguard.

 

My Vanguard runs an Indra, Harrier and Eagle. I like the versatility of this setup, and these weapons at a max level and certain mods grant me over 100% power cooldown. I rarely touch shotguns.