32 réponses à ce sujet

[vertigomez]

There were so many complaints about it in DAI, and even to a certain extent in DAO, so... assuming time and resources allow for greater reactivity, what would be ideal?

I would love to have more than a token nod to our race. Ambient and special dialogue is great, but usually someone just goes "wow, you're a _____!" and then you're back to business. In some circumstances this works (everyone knows the Grey Wardens are a multiracial organization, and as far as people are concerned the Inquisitor is backed by Andraste...), others not so much.

What if snobby NPCs flat-out refused to speak with a lowly knife-ear or brutish oxman, and you had to take an alternate route to complete certain quests? Like that one guy in DA2 - he's only threatened by a Hawke with an aggressive personality. Otherwise, you HAVE to bribe him or sneak back at night to get the info you need.

What about an expanded version of the court approval mechanic, where instead of court approval we have some kind of... game-spanning societal approval? Like influence in DAI, only specific to your background. Certain races and classes could start with [negative whatever] approval and build it up over the course of the game. A Laetan mage in Tevinter could start with more approval than an elven slave, and less than an Altus... but they also have several opportunities to fall and fail.

Otherwise the game would be mostly the same. I don't expect wildly diverging branches for major questlines based solely on your chosen class or race. I think that's too much to ask for and would take away from whatever the plot is. I would just like more.

Thoughts?

[katerinafm]

I agree, but I don't see it happening, especially if they add all the DAI races in the next game.

[Incantrix]

I agree but there are many people who don't like being punished for their choices. Get ready to be flamed.

They don't realize RPGs are all about choices and that's why DEVs never give us truly "hard" decisions. Too many people cry and get upset about it.

[vertigomez]

I agree but there are many people who don't like being punished for their choices. Get ready to be flamed.

I think it's empowering to play the underdog. Feels better when you get to flip off every human noble who dismissed you out of hand.

That said, I understand why some people wouldn't like it.

[ArcadiaGrey]

Rambling......apologies.

 

I'd have liked some shady Carta folk to come to Skyhold and try to take advantage of their connection to my Dwarf Inquisitor.  Or perhaps an elf walking thru Haven only to overhear someone call them a knife ear.  What if, as a human noble, Sera was far less likely to trust you?  Mentioning it and even having a special cutscene about it?  She could start out with -20 approval.  Come to think of it Cass could too for a mage as she'd be less likely to trust them.  You'd have to work extra hard to prove your worth but then Solas could have +20 to balance it.

 

If it was balanced so that humans weren't sainted and had issues too then it would be fair, every race would have an issue whether it was being too posh, common, savage, stupid, dodgy or whatever else other people could think of them based on their prejudices.

 

I agree, certain quests could get a boost or a hinderance.  So one side quest could be, for example, with the Qunari.  The Qunquisitor could be at a huge disadvantage for being Vashoth and find that they are super hostile, whereas everyone else is fine (haven't played that yet, I'm assuming the Qunari wouldn't like the Qunquisitor?) Then another quest could have a secret lead from a fellow dwarf that ends up being a trap, making that quest different and harder for a dwarf, etc etc.

 

If you had a system of reputation then I think it would have to start out equal for all.  But then a human noble would get grief from the 'common folk' and they'd think of him as Sera would, which would make him have to work harder.  A Qunari would get plain old racism, an elf would find it super hard to be respected by the nobles, and a dwarf the same.  They'd all hit a roadblock at some point. 

 

Unfortunately most ppl who play aren't massive role players.  If it was known that one race was easier than all the rest then of course many would just do that one, and it would lead to the already underplayed races being even more underplayed.  But if you could balance it, and I believe you could, it might work.

 

You know, it doesn't have to be race specific.  What about being shady or righteous?  What if there was a system that recognised if you're willing to work with dodgy ppl, bandits, coterie etc, or were appalled by them and killed them in the name of justice?  That could change attitudes.  So Cullen would respect you for being lawful, dislike you for being shady.  Leliana the opposite.  By defining that system by race then you're pigeonholing species which I have to say annoys me. 

 

Yeah, wittering on, sorry about that.   But this is something I'd love to see more of.  I'd have taken one less zone in DA:I and had that time spent on parallel paths through the game, different options in quests etc.  Anything to give me a different experience next time round.

[AlanC9]

This would be a huge resource sink, of course. But yeah, trading length for breadth would be a good thing.

[Incantrix]

I think it's empowering to play the underdog. Feels better when you get to flip off every human noble who dismissed you out of hand.

That said, I understand why some people wouldn't like it.

Me too. That's why I always play an elf ( plus I love dalish lore). Unfortunately some people believe that all content should be available to them regardless of their choices.

Theres plenty of "wahh" threads because someone made a choice back in DAO or DA2 and now they are paying the price.

[nightscrawl]

There were so many complaints about it in DAI, and even to a certain extent in DAO, so... assuming time and resources allow for greater reactivity, what would be ideal?

I would love to have more than a token nod to our race. Ambient and special dialogue is great, but usually someone just goes "wow, you're a _____!" and then you're back to business. In some circumstances this works (everyone knows the Grey Wardens are a multiracial organization, and as far as people are concerned the Inquisitor is backed by Andraste...), others not so much.

What if snobby NPCs flat-out refused to speak with a lowly knife-ear or brutish oxman, and you had to take an alternate route to complete certain quests? Like that one guy in DA2 - he's only threatened by a Hawke with an aggressive personality. Otherwise, you HAVE to bribe him or sneak back at night to get the info you need.

What about an expanded version of the court approval mechanic, where instead of court approval we have some kind of... game-spanning societal approval? Like influence in DAI, only specific to your background. Certain races and classes could start with [negative whatever] approval and build it up over the course of the game. A Laetan mage in Tevinter could start with more approval than an elven slave, and less than an Altus... but they also have several opportunities to fall and fail.

Otherwise the game would be mostly the same. I don't expect wildly diverging branches for major questlines based solely on your chosen class or race. I think that's too much to ask for and would take away from whatever the plot is. I would just like more.

Thoughts?

 

I agree that there should be more reactivity. The DA2 quest you cited is the perfect example of what I would like to see more of: reactivity and consequence of your race or class (or spec!) choice, but not game or world altering, simply a reflection of the world.

 

I would like those choices to have an impact on the things that the player is required to do to solve problems, with some paths only being open to certain origins. But in the end, the result would be the same: the problem is solved and the player moves on to the next part of the plot. If we use DAI as an example, perhaps the Fade sequence could have played out differently if the PC was a mage, with some other magey elements (like possession) adding to the danger, or something along those lines. Perhaps in the Mark of the Assassin DLC the sneaky bits would only be open to a rogue player, and so on.

 

However, I don't want them to get too carried away with such things as your idea of a court approval mechanic. Right now the race and gender choice is primarily cosmetic and role-play based and I do want that to be the main focus for those choices, a personal player decision. Your suggestion would result in "this combo is the best" for gameplay, which I do NOT want.

 

You can already see from threads on these forums asking what the best gender/race/class/romance combo is, but ANY and ALL responses to that question regarding DAI are personal preference only, as it should be. I understand that playing a female elf mage that romances Solas is really meaningful to some people, but it is not required to get the most out of the story, those players only feel that the story is more meaningful to them because of that option. This is perfectly fine, and I want it to remain that way.

 

Similar reactivity comes with some companion dialogue. For instance, Dorian's initial recruitment dialogue has different things for a Trev noble, a mage, an elf, a Qunari, and a dwarf. Some of those dialogues have some interesting Tevinter bits that you can only hear if you play as that race, which is great, and real, and another example of the good type of reactivity.

[Nefla]

Yes this was one of the things I had wished for. I don't need every piece of dialogue in the game to be specialized, most of it can be generic across all classes (ex: your character asking "what's going on" is fine. It doesn't need to be "what's going on here humans? I am a dwarf") but I do want that flavor/roleplaying dialogue, especially when your race is relevant. Before DA:I came out we were told there was one quest in the game involving the Qunari that was nearly impossible to complete if you yourself played as the Qunari race. That never happened sadly and I'm with the people saying that there are too many players who would whine and cry that they couldn't do everything in one playthrough or that they couldn't get the optimal outcome every time no matter what they did, etc...

[nightscrawl]

Before DA:I came out we were told there was one quest in the game involving the Qunari that was nearly impossible to complete if you yourself played as the Qunari race.

"Nearly impossible"? See, I think doing it like that is just unfairly penalizing players for their choice. This is why I am in favor of different paths (and they can be wildly different) that lead to the same outcome.

[AlanC9]

Before DA:I came out we were told there was one quest in the game involving the Qunari that was nearly impossible to complete if you yourself played as the Qunari race.

Got a link? I never saw that -- it would have stuck with me since it's such an un-Bio thing to do.

[vertigomez]

Thank you all for your thoughts!

I agree that there should be more reactivity. The DA2 quest you cited is the perfect example of what I would like to see more of: reactivity and consequence of your race or class (or spec!) choice, but not game or world altering, simply a reflection of the world.

I would like those choices to have an impact on the things that the player is required to do to solve problems, with some paths only being open to certain origins. But in the end, the result would be the same: the problem is solved and the player moves on to the next part of the plot. If we use DAI as an example, perhaps the Fade sequence could have played out differently if the PC was a mage, with some other magey elements (like possession) adding to the danger, or something along those lines. Perhaps in the Mark of the Assassin DLC the sneaky bits would only be open to a rogue player, and so on.

This is something that's always bothered me. The "threat" of demonic possession isn't very threatening if it never affects our character. It's easy for the player to click the NOPE option, but I would absolutely love it if the game were to trick us - sort of like Varric's narration in DA2, where he would occasionally segue into BS and we would play that sequence until Cassandra called him out. But instead of Varric's storytelling... it's a demon, and we have to figure that out.

Having something like this would, I think, highlight the very real dangers mages face (and can become). It's easy to say demons are no biggie until you're faced with something like that.

However, I don't want them to get too carried away with such things as your idea of a court approval mechanic. Right now the race and gender choice is primarily cosmetic and role-play based and I do want that to be the main focus for those choices, a personal player decision. Your suggestion would result in "this combo is the best" for gameplay, which I do NOT want.

I want the focus to be on roleplaying too, but I don't necessarily think this kind of mechanic negates that. Like, if you were an elf you might get penalized when talking to nobility... but you'd get a bonus among other elves and servants, and would be able to complete quests in a satisfactory way. So, no "best" way to play from either a roleplay or mechanics standpoint.

It's a bit like picking a dwarf PC and knowing you can never be a mage. It's the price you pay for the opportunity to explore that race and culture, but you also get magic resistance. Different, but not bad.

Similar reactivity comes with some companion dialogue. For instance, Dorian's initial recruitment dialogue has different things for a Trev noble, a mage, an elf, a Qunari, and a dwarf. Some of those dialogues have some interesting Tevinter bits that you can only hear if you play as that race, which is great, and real, and another example of the good type of reactivity.

I love the different race/spec/etc. dialogues with the companions. Sera's reactivity is probably my favorite - even if you're not into the mechanics thing (she gives the most approval for qunari, then dwarves and humans, then elves), it's her comments that get me. They're wildly different based on your race and it was so nice for someone to acknowledge it in more than a one-off conversation. It comes up SEVERAL times and I love that.

[vertigomez]

Rambling......apologies.

I heartily approve of rambling.

I'd have liked some shady Carta folk to come to Skyhold and try to take advantage of their connection to my Dwarf Inquisitor. Or perhaps an elf walking thru Haven only to overhear someone call them a knife ear. What if, as a human noble, Sera was far less likely to trust you? Mentioning it and even having a special cutscene about it? She could start out with -20 approval. Come to think of it Cass could too for a mage as she'd be less likely to trust them. You'd have to work extra hard to prove your worth but then Solas could have +20 to balance it.

If it was balanced so that humans weren't sainted and had issues too then it would be fair, every race would have an issue whether it was being too posh, common, savage, stupid, dodgy or whatever else other people could think of them based on their prejudices.

I like this. I DEFINITELY would have loved for our Inquisitor's backstory to have more of an impact, so instead of war table missions... the Carta or the Valo-Kas mercenaries or your Keeper shows up. Something to make them feel like real people instead of just text.

And yes, ideally humans would face issues too. They might have a harder time getting information out of the alienage, as fewer elves are willing to come forward for them. Or they wouldn't get as good of a deal from a dwarven merchant as a dwarf PC would. That sort of thing.

I agree, certain quests could get a boost or a hinderance. So one side quest could be, for example, with the Qunari. The Qunquisitor could be at a huge disadvantage for being Vashoth and find that they are super hostile, whereas everyone else is fine (haven't played that yet, I'm assuming the Qunari wouldn't like the Qunquisitor?) Then another quest could have a secret lead from a fellow dwarf that ends up being a trap, making that quest different and harder for a dwarf, etc etc.

If you had a system of reputation then I think it would have to start out equal for all. But then a human noble would get grief from the 'common folk' and they'd think of him as Sera would, which would make him have to work harder. A Qunari would get plain old racism, an elf would find it super hard to be respected by the nobles, and a dwarf the same. They'd all hit a roadblock at some point.

Unfortunately most ppl who play aren't massive role players. If it was known that one race was easier than all the rest then of course many would just do that one, and it would lead to the already underplayed races being even more underplayed. But if you could balance it, and I believe you could, it might work.

AALLLL OF THIS. Balance is key.

You know, it doesn't have to be race specific. What about being shady or righteous? What if there was a system that recognised if you're willing to work with dodgy ppl, bandits, coterie etc, or were appalled by them and killed them in the name of justice? That could change attitudes. So Cullen would respect you for being lawful, dislike you for being shady. Leliana the opposite. By defining that system by race then you're pigeonholing species which I have to say annoys me.

Sounds like an alignment system. I don't know that I like the idea of that in DA, but the approval system already sort of does that even if it doesn't keep track of it. Cassandra doesn't like you to take the sneaky mountain pass route, for example.

[vertigomez]

I mentioned Sera but come to think of it, she's not the only LI who has romance-specific dialogue related to race...

I romanced Alistair with a dwarf and asked him if that bothered him. He said, "Of course not! If anything, I was wondering if I was too tall." Loved that.

An elf who romances Cullen can bring up her Dalish heritage and he's very respectful of that.

Merrill and Fenris both acknowledge Hawke's human-ness and how it'll affect their relationship.

More of that, please.

[Nefla]

Got a link? I never saw that -- it would have stuck with me since it's such an un-Bio thing to do.

Sorry, I don't it was one of the pieces of information we were bombarded with right after the race choice was announced.

 

"Nearly impossible"? See, I think doing it like that is just unfairly penalizing players for their choice. This is why I am in favor of different paths (and they can be wildly different) that lead to the same outcome.

And I think it makes for a better and more realistic story and gives a greater replay value. Such a quest would a positive for me, not a negative.

[Deanna Troy]

I agree but there are many people who don't like being punished for their choices. Get ready to be flamed.

They don't realize RPGs are all about choices and that's why DEVs never give us truly "hard" decisions. Too many people cry and get upset about it.

What? Where are these people? Because in all topics and posts since launch all I see is people complaining about lack or reactivity, never seen people complaining about too much reactivity (which would make me laugh). I understand your point, but I don't think those people are here in the forums, I've never seen a fan compain about it.

As for the op, the optimal reactivity would be impossibly extreme, but it is impossible so the maximun possible is all we get and all we will ever get. It would help A LOT if Bioware decided which route they want to go, as long as they keep the series as a constant experiment it is impossible to predict such things. What is DA? For now it is nothing, each game is completley different. So if they go DAO, you can expect lots of reactivity and improve upon it. If they go DA2 they can offer even more reactivity since it happens in a city it is a lot easier to handle reactivity in more limited space. But if they go DAI, don't expect too much, not even CDPR would be able to handle 4 races and 3 (9) classes reactivity in such a huge world.

[Orian Tabris]

I romanced Alistair with a dwarf and asked him if that bothered him. He said, "Of course not! If anything, I was wondering if I was too tall." Loved that.

 

I remember that, that was a highlight of the dwarf-Alistair romance. BioWare could have done a better job with the dwarf kissing animation. I think the LI sinks into the ground, though I think BioWare did a good job in DA:I.

 

Definitely the best part of playing a Dwarf Commoner for me, was her dilemma between doing what's best for Orzammar and her sense of morality, and doing what's best for her family. I sided with Harrowmont in the Proving (I managed to solo Piotin Aeducan in the final Proving round, on nightmare as a DW rogue; I made sure Harrowmont's guys and Dog stayed out of it), but when it came to choosing a new king, she went with her family, and chose Bhelen. It was interesting, because it added some "reactivity" to playing a dwarf, and you actually felt your origin mattered beyond defining how you speak. It was good that Rica appeared in a place, and starts a conversation, that you never got in any of the other origins.

[vertigomez]

I remember that, that was a highlight of the dwarf-Alistair romance. BioWare could have done a better job with the dwarf kissing animation. I think the LI sinks into the ground, though I think BioWare did a good job in DA:I.
 
Definitely the best part of playing a Dwarf Commoner for me, was her dilemma between doing what's best for Orzammar and her sense of morality, and doing what's best for her family. I sided with Harrowmont in the Proving (I managed to solo Piotin Aeducan in the final Proving round, on nightmare as a DW rogue; I made sure Harrowmont's guys and Dog stayed out of it), but when it came to choosing a new king, she went with her family, and chose Bhelen. It was interesting, because it added some "reactivity" to playing a dwarf, and you actually felt your origin mattered beyond defining how you speak. Of course, your character also has a personal interest in the story.

Oh god, don't get me started on dwarves! The smooching animations were pretty good for dwarves in DAI... except the fade-to-black with Blackwall, where the camera kept panning back from your faces to your feet... and Cadash was somehow kissing a human man and walking on the floor at the same time... at least dwarves get to stand on a box for Bull.

I agree that rolling through Orzammar as a DC was compelling. I absolutely loved it. I had no problem siding with Bhelen - not only for Rica's sake, but Harrowmont's nice old man image vanishes when you're playing a casteless Warden and he spits vitriol at you and your fellow dusters. Suddenly the shine wears off.

The fact that Baby Endrin is the nephew of both Brosca and Aeducan gives me feels every time. The potential PCs are siblings-in-law even if one of them's dead, and I think that's grand.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

'd like to see active race specific side quests, things that didn't have a major impact on the overall sotry but, where each race would get one or two quests in each zone that was specific to that race and, gain an advantage by doing the quest line.

 

I'd also like to see the NPCs acknowledge and react to the PC race more. As it is it's like every race is cool with everyone except maybe as a romantic partner. I'd rather have the friend or rival dynamic and, have some NPCs dislike and/or mistrust my character because of his/her race.

[Big I]

I like how they did it in Origins. A race specific intro, followed by few short race specific mentions was enough for me. They probably did too many in DA:O though, probably should stick to just one per race.

[nightscrawl]

Sounds like an alignment system. I don't know that I like the idea of that in DA, but the approval system already sort of does that even if it doesn't keep track of it. Cassandra doesn't like you to take the sneaky mountain pass route, for example.

One thing I would dislike with an actual alignment or reputation system is that they would have to have some way to keep track of it, like meters or something. Some players complained about the lack of companion meters in DAI, but I felt it made the relationships seem more organic and natural. In fact, I would like the removal of shown numbers altogether and go solely based on follower reactions.

However, they aren't likely to have a spoken follower reaction for every quest. We don't need to have three different people saying, "Man, that was a dick move," "Ugh, how many peasants do we need to help?" or, "You're super nice, boss-man/lady." That would get old, and repetitive, see Cole's, "I'm glad we did that," as an example. There is also the issue of approval gains from followers who were not there at the time of the decision, such as with the Warden or Well choice, or widely known/visible choices like the Inquisitor's mission statement, or the various judgements.

While I do think it would be an interesting experiment to just go by how the follower reacts to me -- Cassandra's "Yes, my friend," versus "Yes, what is it?" -- I can see how it would be frustrating to rely on that alone without seeing any numbers at all, especially given the above issues of followers not being present to give a certain opinion on a choice.


I understand that we have numbers for combat (and stats on gear that affect combat), a gamey element, but I've always considered that aspect of the game separate from the story. So as far as the story and role-play is concerned, I would like it to be as less gamey as possible. This is one reason I disliked the Court Approval mechanic, because it made the whole sequence too gamey, never mind the way the player is rushed through the whole thing.

[TheyCallMeBunny]

DA:I had four different choices of race, and to give them all special paths would be awesome but also a huge drain on resources. I think that if we truly want more reactions to our race we would also have to accept a limited number of them, perhaps only two. Since human is the most played it would probably be kept, and those of us who love other races might end up with our favorite not making the cut. Is it worth it? I loved playing both elves and dwarves in DA:I, but I also liked how we in DA2 had a family and a more defined background to which NPCs could react to. One way is to alternate between games depending on what kind of story the writers wish to tell, but the backlash after the loss of races in DA2 might have made them wary of doing that.

 

Personally I think I would be okay with being restricted to fewer number of races, but only if the game made it clear to me that there is a reason for the other races not being relevant. Sometimes restrictions can actually force you to discover new things you might in the end wind up loving.    

[Tidus]

I prefer a Elf over other races any time for many reasons one reason its like real life..  A nobody in life becomes a hero one day and then just as easily  forgotten the next and in the end nobody cares or remembers.. I can personally relate to that.

 

As long as Bio Ware keeps a Elf in the line up of character choices I will continue to buy new DA games and their DLC as they are release. I almost didn't buy DA:2 because your choice was either a male or female Hawke. I don't like LOTR because you have no choice in choosing your character. I do enjoy the game though. In FF 10 and 12 you can select the person you wish to play, select your main group and let the other be bench warmers.

[Orian Tabris]

I prefer a Elf over other races any time for many reasons one reason its like real life..  A nobody in life becomes a hero one day and then just as easily  forgotten the next and in the end nobody cares or remembers.. I can personally relate to that.

 

And how does being an elf correlate to real life or being a nobody turned hero, who is then forgotten, etc., etc.?

 

As long as Bio Ware keeps a Elf in the line up of character choices I will continue to buy new DA games and their DLC as they are release. I almost didn't buy DA:2 because your choice was either a male or female Hawke. I don't like LOTR because you have no choice in choosing your character. I do enjoy the game though. In FF 10 and 12 you can select the person you wish to play, select your main group and let the other be bench warmers.

 

I too like being able to be more free with what sort of character I play, however, I much prefer to cycle through every character (in FFX and FFXII, and in Dragon Age), rather than ignoring characters.

[Tidus]

I shall tell you.

 

A soldier does something stupid in his youth gets a metal and that metal won't even get him a free cup of coffee at the VA Hospital. Nobody remembers except maybe the soldiers in his platoon.

 

Same as a Elf-a nobody in the grand scheme of Ferelden saves the world and nobody really cares or will remember and nothing changes for the Elves..  There's been several Elven heros through the history of the Grey Wardens and yet neither the City Elves or the Dalish remembers. The humans remember Loghain as the Hero of River Dane. They do not speak of Loghain's Night Owls he used during the rebellion and how they rain terror on the Orlesian soldiers and Chevaliers  at night. All of these Night Owls was Elves.